Expectations for the new players

[Hoop Head]

I was hoping the Suns would have Ayton attend one of Hakeem's big man camps and he has. According to Igor, Ayton stayed with Hakeem this summer and worked on his post game there. That's good to hear. Hopefully he returns a few times. I know working with Hakeem helped Kobe add a strong post game when he got older. He's probably the biggest success story but he also has an insane work ethic.

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[Cheesebeef]

I was hoping the Suns would have Ayton attend one of Hakeem's big man camps and he has. According to Igor, Ayton stayed with Hakeem this summer and worked on his post game there. That's good to hear. Hopefully he returns a few times. I know working with Hakeem helped Kobe add a strong post game when he got older. He's probably the biggest success story but he also has an insane work ethic.

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Love this news. Always thought there were the tiniest of shades of Hakeem in Ayton's highlight reels... movements, shakes. Just like that he's already putting in the work with one of the greats to hopefully be as great as I think he can be if he maxes out his talent.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It would be nice if Ayton worked out with Hakeem but I think this is all a misunderstanding (according to Dave King).

 

[JCSunsfan]

Okay... I think you somehow missed the entire point of my argument above. So, let's try this one last time. Trying to be super clear here:

Your argument is that motion offenses don't need the PG to create for everyone else, right? And your evidence is that it worked for the Triangle and Popovich. Is that right?

If so,I don't begrudge your first statement. Pop and the Triangle did work.

My argument is that I believe those offenses didn't need the PG to be the one guy who creates because those offenses had multiple high level creators... the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen during their first 3-peat and then Jordan, Pippen and Kukoc for their second. Meanwhile, Avery Johnson (who was a pure PG), Duncan and Robinson could all create for themselves and others during their first title and then Duncan, Parker and Ginobli did so for the dynasty Spurs.

Again, those teams you mentioned who were successful with motion offenses had multiple next level creators, most of which were also HOF level players which why it was possible for them to run offenses without one guy who creates for everyone else. We don't have that. We have Booker, who right now is a great creator of his own offense and has shown good playmaking abilities for teammates. And that it's it right now. I hope that one day Booker can reach Jordan's level of offense creating for others like he did when he was running the Triangle and that Josh Jackson can reach a Pippen-level of creation on offense... or that Ayton can reach Duncan's ability to create offense for himself and others. Because to run offenses like Pop or Phil did, you're going to need at least 2 of those 3 to happen, if not all 3. Fortunately, I DO think that in a perfect world, or even somewhat perfect world, those days CAN happen. Unfortunately, I don't think those days are happening this season. We might see flashes of it, but sustained success isn't coming down the pike for a couple years, IMO.

Does that make sense? I just think it's extremely hard to say Igor's offense can work right now because he doesn't have multiple next-level playmakers needed at different positions which would allow his motion offense to follow in Pop or Phil's footsteps.

You are making a weird point. All kinds of teams with all kinds of levels of talent run motion offenses well without a ball dominant point guard in the half court. I was just using those teams as an example of the style of play. They ran it at a championship level for six years because they had the multiple playmakers you me tion. These Suns are not going to run ANY offense at that level dominant point guard or not.

You are saying the Bulls ran a motion offense. But the Bulls had multiple creators. So the Suns can not run a motion offense because th Suns do not have multiple creators. That does not make sense. Just because they cannot run it at a championship level does not mean they cannot run it. In fact motion offenses tend to make LESS talented teams more effective if they have the discipline to execute it.

 

[Hoop Head]

I thought the Hakeem stuff might have been too good to be true. Apparently Igor is friends with Hakeem and he spent time at Hakeem's ranch this summer. He wants Ayton to be like Hakeem defensively.

Knowing Igor is friends with Hakeem that should open the door for Ayton to form his own relationship with the Dream. Hopefully that's in the cards for the future. Visiting him after his rookie season might be for the best since he'll know more about the NBA game and what it takes to succeed.

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[Hoop Head]

The Suns held their annual "State of the Suns" season ticket holder event last night where all of the executives spoke about where the team is headed, plans for the future, etc. In attendance were Sarver, Igor, James Jones, Ayton, Melton, and Okobo were there. Bridges wasn't there since he's been battling some illness the last few days. They had the Suns rookies there as part of it, sort of "meet the new players" sort of thing.

There was a member of The Timeline podcast there live tweeting the event. Not a whole of info to be had but here's a link to his twitter pages.

https://twitter.com/ImPatBurke


Here is a link to the Timeline on Twitter also, there are some videos from the event posted there. It seems they updated that account with videos from the event and more interesting news items, although there wasn't that much said. They were recording a podcast about it tonight that should be up in a day or two. That should be a good listen.

https://twitter.com/TheTimelinePod

 

[Chaplin]

The Suns held their annual "State of the Suns" season ticket holder event last night where all of the executives spoke about where the team is headed, plans for the future, etc. In attendance were Sarver, Igor, James Jones, Ayton, Melton, and Okobo were there. Bridges wasn't there since he's been battling some illness the last few days. They had the Suns rookies there as part of it, sort of "meet the new players" sort of thing.

There was a member of The Timeline podcast there live tweeting the event. Not a whole of info to be had but here's a link to his twitter pages.

https://twitter.com/ImPatBurke


Here is a link to the Timeline on Twitter also, there are some videos from the event posted there. It seems they updated that account with videos from the event and more interesting news items, although there wasn't that much said. They were recording a podcast about it tonight that should be up in a day or two. That should be a good listen.

https://twitter.com/TheTimelinePod

Best Suns podcast now, even if the guys constantly refer to Suns reddit.

 

[1Sun]

You are making a weird point. All kinds of teams with all kinds of levels of talent run motion offenses well without a ball dominant point guard in the half court. I was just using those teams as an example of the style of play. They ran it at a championship level for six years because they had the multiple playmakers you me tion. These Suns are not going to run ANY offense at that level dominant point guard or not.

You are saying the Bulls ran a motion offense. But the Bulls had multiple creators. So the Suns can not run a motion offense because th Suns do not have multiple creators. That does not make sense. Just because they cannot run it at a championship level does not mean they cannot run it. In fact motion offenses tend to make LESS talented teams more effective if they have the discipline to execute it.

The problem there is that the only point guard we have with any measure of discipline offensively is basically playing on one leg.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I thought the Hakeem stuff might have been too good to be true. Apparently Igor is friends with Hakeem and he spent time at Hakeem's ranch this summer. He wants Ayton to be like Hakeem defensively.

Knowing Igor is friends with Hakeem that should open the door for Ayton to form his own relationship with the Dream. Hopefully that's in the cards for the future. Visiting him after his rookie season might be for the best since he'll know more about the NBA game and what it takes to succeed.

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Even that is good news. It's nice to know that Igor will not be trying to turn Ayton into a pf on offense OR defense. UofA tried to turn him into a pf defensively. Yes, he can switch out on guards, but he should not be doing it all the time.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The problem there is that the only point guard we have with any measure of discipline offensively is basically playing on one leg.

Canaan is not healed? Did I miss some news? Okobo and Melton have not discipline? Maybe they don't, not sure any of us know that yet. Do you always spew speculation as fact?

 

[1Sun]

Canaan is not healed? Did I miss some news? Okobo and Melton have not discipline? Maybe they don't, not sure any of us know that yet. Do you always spew speculation as fact?

Okobo and Melton are too young and raw to have that kind of discipline. It takes time to develop that. Canaan's injury, meanwhile, is of the nature that he will never be the same. You might recall what happened with that college player at Louisville. It's that kind of injury, so "healed" is a relative term here.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Okobo and Melton are too young and raw to have that kind of discipline. It takes time to develop that. Canaan's injury, meanwhile, is of the nature that he will never be the same. You might recall what happened with that college player at Louisville. It's that kind of injury, so "healed" is a relative term here.

Oh. You mean like Paul George never the same?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Okobo and Melton are too young and raw to have that kind of discipline. It takes time to develop that. Canaan's injury, meanwhile, is of the nature that he will never be the same. You might recall what happened with that college player at Louisville. It's that kind of injury, so "healed" is a relative term here.

Weren't you just on the Beverley bandwagon? That was a pretty serious injury too.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Okobo and Melton are too young and raw to have that kind of discipline. It takes time to develop that. Canaan's injury, meanwhile, is of the nature that he will never be the same. You might recall what happened with that college player at Louisville. It's that kind of injury, so "healed" is a relative term here.

Kevin Ware recovered from that.

He transferred to Georgia State and was a key part of that RJ Hunter team that earned an NCAA tournament upset victory over 3 seeded Baylor.

 

[1Sun]

Oh. You mean like Paul George never the same?

Canaan's injury was far more gruesome. Better comparison is Ware from Louisville.

 

[1Sun]

Kevin Ware recovered from that.

He transferred to Georgia State and was a key part of that RJ Hunter team that earned an NCAA tournament upset victory over 3 seeded Baylor.

Ware was a lottery pick before that injury, and he had to redshirt the following season to recover.

 

[1Sun]

Weren't you just on the Beverley bandwagon? That was a pretty serious injury too.

No. There are several I prefer to Beverley. I just think Beverley is better than anyone we have on the roster at point guard, that coming back from microfracture is a less risky proposition than coming back from Canaan's gruesome injury, and that Beverley is much better than Canaan when not factoring in the injury.

 

[AzStevenCal]

No. There are several I prefer to Beverley. I just think Beverley is better than anyone we have on the roster at point guard, that coming back from microfracture is a less risky proposition than coming back from Canaan's gruesome injury, and that Beverley is much better than Canaan when not factoring in the injury.

I agree that Beverley was better than Canaan pre-injuries but I think you're out of your league with your other comments.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I agree that Beverley was better than Canaan pre-injuries but I think you're out of your league with your other comments.

Yup.

 

[95pro]

Canaan was rehabbing in the Suns facilities. Although they waived him, they continued to rehab him, pay for his surgery and pretty much footed the bill for everything even though he technically wasn't a sun. Was a pretty cool story on FB, I thought it showed a lot of class by the Suns organization.

 

[Chaplin]

Canaan was rehabbing in the Suns facilities. Although they waived him, they continued to rehab him, pay for his surgery and pretty much footed the bill for everything even though he technically wasn't a sun. Was a pretty cool story on FB, I thought it showed a lot of class by the Suns organization.

And after that, they certainly didn't owe him anything. If they thought there was no chance he could be a contributor, they wouldn't have brought him back.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Ware was a lottery pick before that injury, and he had to redshirt the following season to recover.

From what source or memory are you getting that information? Lottery pick? In his BEST year at Louisville, he averaged 4.5 ppg.

 

[95pro]

And after that, they certainly didn't owe him anything. If they thought there was no chance he could be a contributor, they wouldn't have brought him back.

Exactly.

 

[JCSunsfan]

And after that, they certainly didn't owe him anything. If they thought there was no chance he could be a contributor, they wouldn't have brought him back.

It is a make good contract, so there is a chance its just a gesture, but I don't KNOW that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You are making a weird point. All kinds of teams with all kinds of levels of talent run motion offenses well without a ball dominant point guard in the half court. I was just using those teams as an example of the style of play. They ran it at a championship level for six years because they had the multiple playmakers you me tion. These Suns are not going to run ANY offense at that level dominant point guard or not.

Never said anything about them running a championship level offense, nor have I said any offense needs a dominant point guard. You're totally missing my point and distorting it now, so let's just move on.

You are saying the Bulls ran a motion offense. But the Bulls had multiple creators. So the Suns can not run a motion offense because th Suns do not have multiple creators. That does not make sense.

I don't think ANY offense can efficiently run without either a) a great point guard or b) in the absence of a great point guard, having at least two or three very good offense creators at other positions.

Just because they cannot run it at a championship level does not mean they cannot run it.

Again, never said anything like this.

In fact motion offenses tend to make LESS talented teams more effective if they have the discipline to execute it.

Okay... examples of this in the NBA?