Expectations for the new players

[95pro]

I've really enjoyed the videos that various players have put out this offseason. I don't remember seeing a group of Suns players that seemed so close. It may just be having a ton of young players that utilize social media but I think it's more than that and they've taken an actual liking to their teammates. Every time you see one of them somewhere there are at least 3 or 4 more there with them. Chemistry should be good if they get along as you'd think from social media.

This is what I noticed too. Even at the Dbacks game where Ariza threw out the pitch, I think there were 4-5 of the suns in attendance?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Talking about expectations for the new players, I expect that Ayton will feel the need to lead the team on offense until Booker returns.

Center or not, that would be a lot of pressure for a rookie to feel. I hope, somehow, it does not lead to getting off on the wrong foot.

On the other hand, if he were to be our best offensive player during that time, it would expedite his rise to stardom as the #1 pick.

It is just another reason why I am hoping the Suns obtain a experienced facilitator to feed Ayton in the right place at the right time.

That has to be our top priority, especially now with DBook down. As allow him to play Shooting Guard when he works his way back.

'Shooting with his left hand, huh? Maybe Paul Westphal can teach him to be ambidextrous.

Everyone has to feed Ayton, not just a point guard. I suspect this is one of the reasons why BK is gone.

 

[Superbone]

Feed the beast!

 

[BC867]

Everyone has to feed Ayton, not just a point guard. I suspect this is one of the reasons why BK is gone.

But of all the "everyone"s, an experienced Point Guard would be the most important because of his expected accuracy and precision in passing the ball. By definition, it is the priority of his job.

The 'better' that Ayton is fed throughout the game, game after game, the better he'll do in the post while being guarded, even double-teamed with Booker out, by experienced NBA defenders. Do you agree with that?

 

[JCSunsfan]

But of all the "everyone"s, an experienced Point Guard would be the most important because of his expected accuracy and precision in passing the ball. By definition, it is the priority of his job.

The 'better' that Ayton is fed throughout the game, game after game, the better he'll do in the post while being guarded, even double-teamed with Booker out, by experienced NBA defenders. Do you agree with that?

It depends on the offense. For instance, the Bulls triple post offense of the 1990's really did not have a traditional pg handling the ball. The Spurs offense is similar. I do believe that Igor is going to be running an offense where the primary role of the pg is just to bring the ball up. Once it starts moving around the ball will go into Ayton when he is open. The offense will not be designed to have one pass go from the pg to the center. It will touch a lot of other hands first. So, no, I do not think it is as nearly critical as you do.

I am guessing that this is one of the reasons that they decided to trade BK. He saw himself as running the show at pg. I think they decided he would not be able to function like they wanted him to---taking a much lesser role.

 

[SirStefan32]

But of all the "everyone"s, an experienced Point Guard would be the most important because of his expected accuracy and precision in passing the ball. By definition, it is the priority of his job.

The 'better' that Ayton is fed throughout the game, game after game, the better he'll do in the post while being guarded, even double-teamed with Booker out, by experienced NBA defenders. Do you agree with that?

Center does not get fed only by the point guard. Ball typically goes to the wing where the big man posts up.

I think we all agree we need a better point guard, but feeding the ball to Ayton in the low post is not just a point guard thing. I promise you that Booker and whoever plays the 3 is gonna have far more low-post entry passes than a point guard.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Center does not get fed only by the point guard. Ball typically goes to the wing where the big man posts up.

I think we all agree we need a better point guard, but feeding the ball to Ayton in the low post is not just a point guard thing. I promise you that Booker and whoever plays the 3 is gonna have far more low-post entry passes than a point guard.

Yep. I am looking forward to seeing a lot of pick and roll sets with:

Ayton and Booker
Ayton and Mikal
Ayton and JJ

JJ is actually a pretty good passer in the pick and roll. If he jumper was a bit more effective, he would really work well.

Don't forget also that Anderson and Ayton can also make use of the pick and pop quite effectively.

 

[BC867]

Thanks for your responses, JC and Stef. I understand your points.

To recap all the previous posts, then, do we have on our roster a Point Guard who can do a good job of, not only bringing the ball up, but play solid defense and shoot from the outside to open the floor, as well as be one of the passers?

And is there is consensus as to who that starting Point Guard should be?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Thanks for your responses, JC and Stef. I understand your points.

To recap all the previous posts, then, do we have on our roster a Point Guard who can do a good job of, not only bringing the ball up, but play solid defense and shoot from the outside to open the floor, as well as be one of the passers?

And is there is consensus as to who that starting Point Guard should be?

Canaan can bring the ball up, make the initial pass. He is a good defender and he is a career 36% shooter from 3. He would have to be the top choice with those requirements.
Melton might be able to fill that role too, if his improved jump shot is for real.
Okobo, is young, but his future in the NBA will probably reflect those skills.
Shaq can bring the ball up, he can play D, his shooting is limited. His passing is not quite up to average.

 

[1Sun]

But of all the "everyone"s, an experienced Point Guard would be the most important because of his expected accuracy and precision in passing the ball. By definition, it is the priority of his job.

The 'better' that Ayton is fed throughout the game, game after game, the better he'll do in the post while being guarded, even double-teamed with Booker out, by experienced NBA defenders. Do you agree with that?

In my opinion, the biggest reason this team desperately needs to find some way, any way, to get a remotely serviceable veteran point guard on the roster ASAP.

 

[1Sun]

It depends on the offense. For instance, the Bulls triple post offense of the 1990's really did not have a traditional pg handling the ball. The Spurs offense is similar. I do believe that Igor is going to be running an offense where the primary role of the pg is just to bring the ball up. Once it starts moving around the ball will go into Ayton when he is open. The offense will not be designed to have one pass go from the pg to the center. It will touch a lot of other hands first. So, no, I do not think it is as nearly critical as you do.

I am guessing that this is one of the reasons that they decided to trade BK. He saw himself as running the show at pg. I think they decided he would not be able to function like they wanted him to---taking a much lesser role.

B.J. Armstrong, John Paxson, Ron Harper and Steve Kerr weren't exactly chopped liver at the point, either...

 

[1Sun]

Canaan can bring the ball up, make the initial pass. He is a good defender and he is a career 36% shooter from 3. He would have to be the top choice with those requirements.
Melton might be able to fill that role too, if his improved jump shot is for real.
Okobo, is young, but his future in the NBA will probably reflect those skills.
Shaq can bring the ball up, he can play D, his shooting is limited. His passing is not quite up to average.

You must not have been watching very closely last year. Canaan was below average as a shooter, passer and defender. As for Melton and Okobo, they are nowhere near ready even for a limited role, let alone a starting role. Harrison is "not quite up to average" in terms of bringing the ball up, is worse than "limited" as a shooter and is not quite up to high school junior varsity level as a passer.

 

[Hoop Head]

You must not have been watching very closely last year. Canaan was below average as a shooter, passer and defender. As for Melton and Okobo, they are nowhere near ready even for a limited role, let alone a starting role. Harrison is "not quite up to average" in terms of bringing the ball up, is worse than "limited" as a shooter and is not quite up to high school junior varsity level as a passer.

Canaan was the very definition of average for us last year. He played a number of games without Booker and actually helped us win some of them. He's not ideal but he is the best we've got right now. I get being down on Harrison and not thinking Okobo and Melton are ready and you've made that point repeatedly now. At this point it's like you're lobbying people here to make a move when we have as much pull as you do with McD and Sarver.

No one is happy with our PG rotation, no one here at least. Some are trying to be a little more optimistic in their view of it while a number of us are just hoping that it's not as bad as it looks on paper. Regardless of that though there's nothing we can do about it.

You can accuse people of not watching but that's just got to rub people the wrong way because I can assure you most of the people posting now were in virtually every live game thread last season. It's not the time of the year when casual fans are talking Suns basketball though. There's no need to try and question other people's fandom and what they saw because the majority of people here saw it, there's nothing we can do about it now though except try to accept what it looks like we'll be next year.

 

[SirStefan32]

Canaan can bring the ball up, make the initial pass. He is a good defender and he is a career 36% shooter from 3. He would have to be the top choice with those requirements.
Melton might be able to fill that role too, if his improved jump shot is for real.
Okobo, is young, but his future in the NBA will probably reflect those skills.
Shaq can bring the ball up, he can play D, his shooting is limited. His passing is not quite up to average.

I agree on Canaan, and to some degree on Shaq and Okobo. I am not nearly as sold on Melton as you appear to be. One additional thing about Canaan is that he actually has some experience. I looked it up recently, and he's logged some 200+ games over the past few years. I would actually feel better if the Suns had two Canaans who haven't had major injuries last year.

 

[1Sun]

Canaan was the very definition of average for us last year. He played a number of games without Booker and actually helped us win some of them. He's not ideal but he is the best we've got right now. I get being down on Harrison and not thinking Okobo and Melton are ready and you've made that point repeatedly now. At this point it's like you're lobbying people here to make a move when we have as much pull as you do with McD and Sarver.

No one is happy with our PG rotation, no one here at least. Some are trying to be a little more optimistic in their view of it while a number of us are just hoping that it's not as bad as it looks on paper. Regardless of that though there's nothing we can do about it.

You can accuse people of not watching but that's just got to rub people the wrong way because I can assure you most of the people posting now were in virtually every live game thread last season. It's not the time of the year when casual fans are talking Suns basketball though. There's no need to try and question other people's fandom and what they saw because the majority of people here saw it, there's nothing we can do about it now though except try to accept what it looks like we'll be next year.

Fair point. Sorry if my comment offended anyone. I just don't want to see an otherwise promising future torn apart by bad point guard play, and I am frustrated that McDonough hasn't done anything to rectify that and that some (perhaps including McDonough and Kokoskov) think we are fine with what we have there despite what I see as overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

[SirStefan32]

You must not have been watching very closely last year. Canaan was below average as a shooter, passer and defender. As for Melton and Okobo, they are nowhere near ready even for a limited role, let alone a starting role. Harrison is "not quite up to average" in terms of bringing the ball up, is worse than "limited" as a shooter and is not quite up to high school junior varsity level as a passer.

I watched all but two games last season. Canaan did not excel in any one area, but he was not bellow average at anything. His defense was good, especially when compared against other players on the roster. His passing was just fine, and his shot looked good. Team actually looked pretty good with him running the show. Suns were something like 9-11 when he played.

I agree with you on Melton and Okobo, but you are full of it when it comes to your assessment on Harrison. I agree that he has no business being a starter in this league, but to say that any aspect of his game is "not quite up to high school junior varsity level" just takes away any credibility you may have had.

 

[1Sun]

I watched all but two games last season. Canaan did not excel in any one area, but he was not bellow average at anything. His defense was good, especially when compared against other players on the roster. His passing was just fine, and his shot looked good. Team actually looked pretty good with him running the show. Suns were something like 9-11 when he played.

I agree with you on Melton and Okobo, but you are full of it when it comes to your assessment on Harrison. I agree that he has no business being a starter in this league, but to say that any aspect of hyis game is "not quite up to high school junior varsity level" just takes away any credibility you may have had.

I respect your difference of opinion, but in over 40 years of watching basketball at the high school, college and pro level, I have never seen a worse passer and player with worse court vision than Shaquill Harrison. Just my perspective. That being said, I do like his defensive effort and attitude, and as such I don't mind him as a 14th or 15th guy on an NBA roster. I just don't think he offers anything more than that.

The way you feel about Harrison is how I feel about Canaan. Here are his career numbers:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/canaais01.html

Other than free throw shooting, that screams "below average" to me...and that's not factoring in his gruesome injury...

 

[SirStefan32]

I respect your difference of opinion, but in over 40 years of watching basketball at the high school, college and pro level, I have never seen a worse passer and player with worse court vision than Shaquill Harrison. Just my perspective.

Well, that's not a difference of opinion. You are wrong, and your statement is objectively false. I can think of a number of NBA players with worse court vision and passing, let alone every single player who has never made it to the NBA. I played basketball in High School, and I am quite certain that even at my best, I was not the passer that Harrison is. Someone gave him a chance to play in college and then the NBA. I did not receive those opportunities. Being one of the worst passers in the NBA still makes him one of the top 300-400 players in the world. Your statement is just nonsensical. It's like a reverse-Bill Walton statement.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

B.J. Armstrong, John Paxson, Ron Harper and Steve Kerr weren't exactly chopped liver at the point, either...

Not a single one of those was a distributing pg. not a single one.

 

[1Sun]

Not a single one of those was a distributing pg. not a single one.

They were better distributors than what we currently have (and we don't have the likes of Michael Jordan to make up for any deficiencies there).

 

[BC867]

Well, that's not a difference of opinion. You are wrong, and your statement is objectively false. I can think of a number of NBA players with worse court vision and passing, let alone every single player who has never made it to the NBA. I played basketball in High School, and I am quite certain that even at my best, I was not the passer that Harrison is. Someone gave him a chance to play in college and then the NBA. I did not receive those opportunities. Being one of the worst passers in the NBA still makes him one of the top 300-400 players in the world. Your statement is just nonsensical. It's like a reverse-Bill Walton statement.

Stef, isn't this evaluation setting the bar very low for a team hoping to end its eight year absence in the post-season in the best basketball league in the world?

I wonder if Harrison has on his resume, "I am a better passer than SirStefan32." Or "...than BC867."

Even McDonough announced before the draft, knowing that our top pick would be Ayton, that obtaining a starting Point Guard is our second highest priority. And has not yet followed through successfully with the season approaching quickly.

 

[Chaplin]

Fair point. Sorry if my comment offended anyone. I just don't want to see an otherwise promising future torn apart by bad point guard play, and I am frustrated that McDonough hasn't done anything to rectify that and that some (perhaps including McDonough and Kokoskov) think we are fine with what we have there despite what I see as overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Again, that is NOT going to happen! Ayton is not going to fail simply because we don’t have Patrick Beverley. That’s ludicrous.

 

[SirStefan32]

Stef, isn't this evaluation setting the bar very low for a team hoping to end its eight year absence in the post-season in the best basketball league in the world?

I wonder if Harrison has on his resume, "I am a better passer than SirStefan32." Or "...than BC867."

Even McDonough announced before the draft, knowing that our top pick would be Ayton, that obtaining a starting Point Guard is our second highest priority. And has not yet followed through successfully with the season approaching quickly.

But that's the argument that 1Sun made.

I've said this a thousand time- I agree that they need a point guard. Nobody is arguing that they don't. I am simply arguing that we don't need to make up reasons or use hyperbole to prove that point. "Harrison is worse than high school players" and "They need a PG to throw the ball to Ayton" are ridiculous made-up reasons. There is no need to make things up or say that an NBA player is worse than High School players. Nobody disagrees with you or 1Sun or anyone who wants a better point guard. We ALL want a better point guard. Nobody is arguing that we don't. I am just saying we should stop making things up.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

They were better distributors than what we currently have (and we don't have the likes of Michael Jordan to make up for any deficiencies there).

No they weren’t. They were spot up shooters (paxson, armstrong, Kerr and Hodges) or defenders (Harper). None of them were even slightly facilitators. Not even a little. And neither was Derek Fisher . . . same guy in Jackson’s system.

 

[1Sun]

But that's the argument that 1Sun made.

I've said this a thousand time- I agree that they need a point guard. Nobody is arguing that they don't. I am simply arguing that we don't need to make up reasons or use hyperbole to prove that point. "Harrison is worse than high school players" and "They need a PG to throw the ball to Ayton" are ridiculous made-up reasons. There is no need to make things up or say that an NBA player is worse than High School players. Nobody disagrees with you or 1Sun or anyone who wants a better point guard. We ALL want a better point guard. Nobody is arguing that we don't. I am just saying we should stop making things up.

Except, perhaps, the Suns' GM, who hasn't bothered trying to get a better point guard (or at least trying hard or effectively enough)...