Expectations for the new players

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Except, perhaps, the Suns' GM, who hasn't bothered trying to get a better point guard (or at least trying hard or effectively enough)...

Cmon man, I’m all for bashing the front office, but the press has provided us list after list of the pgs they’ve pursued this offseason. If there’s no deal to make there’s no deal to make.

 

[1Sun]

Cmon man, I’m all for bashing the front office, but the press has provided us list after list of the pgs they’ve pursued this offseason. If there’s no deal to make there’s no deal to make.

Sorry, but McDonough doesn't seem to be trying hard or effectively enough to me, and all of the Suns sources I have read touting Harrison make me fear that the Suns front office is putting way too much faith in someone who doesn't come close to deserving it.

 

[Chaplin]

Sorry, but McDonough doesn't seem to be trying hard or effectively enough to me, and all of the Suns sources I have read touting Harrison make me fear that the Suns front office is putting way too much faith in someone who doesn't come close to deserving it.

I'm not sure you know how the front office actually works. What are they supposed to do?

Try to pursue a difference-maker at the position. Check.
Talk down the point guards they already have. Woops, didn't do that. McD must not be trying hard enough.

 

[Yuma]

In all the history of all the PGs the Suns have had, and we have a pretty good history at that position, Harrison is not the worst I have seen. I just don't think we need to overextend to get a PG. Its the Western Conference, in my opinion, I don't think we are making the playoffs, even with a proven PG. Too many young guys that need time playing like Bridges and Ayton that are key pieces. Do we need to give up a first for Beverly? Will he get us a playoff spot. I think no. It's different if we were right there with Golden State fighting to win the Championship and our starting PG and Backup go down to injury, then yeah, maybe you give up a first rounder for Beverly so you can try and win a title. I don't think anyone we are rumored to be looking at moves the needle for us to make the playoffs. Now if you tell me we are getting a top young NBA point guard in the top ten of NBA point guards, hey I might give up TWO first round picks for that, but those teams are probably not letting their stud PGs away from their teams. I may be the only one on the board willing to go with the PGs we have now to start the season, and see what shakes out down the road. Maybe suddenly a Kemba Walker, Jrue Holiday, Ben Simmons, Russel Westbrook, suddenly wakes up and demands a trade to the Suns, LMAO. Or we get someone serviceable at a reasonable rate when teams get reasonable. Unless we get an A rated point guard, like those wishful thinking guys, I just don't see an average veteran NBA point guard having enough talent to raise a bunch of young pups, and a couple long in the tooth veterans, to a playoff spot in the stacked NBA Western Conference. I am looking forward to a season of watching how the team, coaches, and new schemes on offense and defense develop. Seriously, we have a LOT to develop this season without even expecting playoffs.

 

[1Sun]

In all the history of all the PGs the Suns have had, and we have a pretty good history at that position, Harrison is not the worst I have seen. I just don't think we need to overextend to get a PG. Its the Western Conference, in my opinion, I don't think we are making the playoffs, even with a proven PG. Too many young guys that need time playing like Bridges and Ayton that are key pieces. Do we need to give up a first for Beverly? Will he get us a playoff spot. I think no. It's different if we were right there with Golden State fighting to win the Championship and our starting PG and Backup go down to injury, then yeah, maybe you give up a first rounder for Beverly so you can try and win a title. I don't think anyone we are rumored to be looking at moves the needle for us to make the playoffs. Now if you tell me we are getting a top young NBA point guard in the top ten of NBA point guards, hey I might give up TWO first round picks for that, but those teams are probably not letting their stud PGs away from their teams. I may be the only one on the board willing to go with the PGs we have now to start the season, and see what shakes out down the road. Maybe suddenly a Kemba Walker, Jrue Holiday, Ben Simmons, Russel Westbrook, suddenly wakes up and demands a trade to the Suns, LMAO. Or we get someone serviceable at a reasonable rate when teams get reasonable. Unless we get an A rated point guard, like those wishful thinking guys, I just don't see an average veteran NBA point guard having enough talent to raise a bunch of young pups, and a couple long in the tooth veterans, to a playoff spot in the stacked NBA Western Conference. I am looking forward to a season of watching how the team, coaches, and new schemes on offense and defense develop. Seriously, we have a LOT to develop this season without even expecting playoffs.

And I think we need a point guard that will help that development, or at least not create a significant obstacle to that development. Out of curiosity, other than the point guards with bad, me-first attitudes like Mike James, who have you seen in a Suns uniform that is worse than Harrison? From my perspective, in terms of ability for the position, I have not seen worse since I started following the Suns in 1975.

 

[SirStefan32]

I swear that BC and 1Sun are the same person.

 

[1Sun]

I swear that BC and 1Sun are the same person.

Not the same person, but I very much see eye to eye with his/her point of view.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It depends on the offense. For instance, the Bulls triple post offense of the 1990's really did not have a traditional pg handling the ball. The Spurs offense is similar. I do believe that Igor is going to be running an offense where the primary role of the pg is just to bring the ball up. Once it starts moving around the ball will go into Ayton when he is open. The offense will not be designed to have one pass go from the pg to the center. It will touch a lot of other hands first. So, no, I do not think it is as nearly critical as you do.

I am guessing that this is one of the reasons that they decided to trade BK. He saw himself as running the show at pg. I think they decided he would not be able to function like they wanted him to---taking a much lesser role.

again, you mention the Bulls, but fail to mention that the Bulls had THREE GREAT PLAYMAKERS with Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc. So, no they didn't have a traditional point guard, but they had arguably three of the greatest playmakers at their respective positions of all time playing together. And the Spurs always had at least two VERY GOOD-GREAT Playmakers with Parker/Ginobli and Duncan as one of the best passing big men ever.

We don't even have ONE player with even close to the playmaking abilities of a Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Manu/Parker/Duncan, much less three like the Bulls/Spurs had to make their offenses work.

Right now, on this team, the only guy on the club that you can legitimately create a shot for himself and others is Booker. And he's solid at that, but we've seen nothing more at this point and certainly doesn't belong in any class like the guys above who made their non-traditional offenses so successful.

You can't just mention teams that ran no PG offenses without mentioning who else was on the team. It's a completely specious argument to make, especially in regards to our own offense... which we haven't even seen yet.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not a single one of those was a distributing pg. not a single one.

they didn't have to be because they played next to two of the greatest playmakers of all time at their respective positions in Jordan and Pippen... and had another great playmaker off the bench with Kukoc.

We don't have one player who can make plays at even close to those guys' level.

 

[1Sun]

again, you mention the Bulls, but fail to mention that the Bulls had two GREAT PLAYMAKERS. The Spurs always had at least two VERY GOOD-GREAT Playmakers with Parker/Ginobli and Duncan as one of the best passing big men ever.

We don't even have ONE player with even close to the playmaking abilities of a Jordan/Pippen/Manu/Parker/Duncan, much less two like the Bulls/Spurs had to make their offenses work.

Plus, if the point guard takes too long to bring the ball up, or is turnover prone, or makes the wrong pass to initiate the offense, or makes the right pass to initiate the offense but throws it way off target...

(If Harrison ends up as the starter, I envision a lot of offensive possessions where the Suns are left scrambling as the shot clock runs down to try to catch up and make up for his gaffes in bringing the ball up or throwing that first pass...at least those where Harrison doesn't just turn the ball over right away.)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sorry, but McDonough doesn't seem to be trying hard or effectively enough to me, and all of the Suns sources I have read touting Harrison make me fear that the Suns front office is putting way too much faith in someone who doesn't come close to deserving it.

You have literally zero idea what McDonough has tried or how hard. And what have you read touting Harrison from the suns??? I’ve read none of that. Please provide links. I’m legitimately curious.

 

[1Sun]

You have literally zero idea what McDonough has tried or how hard. And what have you read touting Harrison from the suns??? I’ve read none of that. Please provide links. I’m legitimately curious.

I have seen a number of articles at azcentral, brightsideofthesuns and fansided to that effect, as well as hearing statements made in interviews on KTAR.

Here are a few examples:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BhAB&usg=AOvVaw2ENyKUt9RVjTOiQSxcBSdM&ampcf=1

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...CBAB&usg=AOvVaw3DKHXmXJcEjID3E0mMd-Tr&ampcf=1

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw0EtPLUDC-msVBeLXxwGsY-&ampcf=1

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

again, you mention the Bulls, but fail to mention that the Bulls had THREE GREAT PLAYMAKERS with Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc. So, no they didn't have a traditional point guard, but they had arguably three of the greatest playmakers at their respective positions of all time playing together. And the Spurs always had at least two VERY GOOD-GREAT Playmakers with Parker/Ginobli and Duncan as one of the best passing big men ever.

We don't even have ONE player with even close to the playmaking abilities of a Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Manu/Parker/Duncan, much less three like the Bulls/Spurs had to make their offenses work.

Right now, on this team, the only guy on the club that you can legitimately create a shot for himself and others is Booker. And he's solid at that, but we've seen nothing more at this point and certainly doesn't belong in any class like the guys above who made their non-traditional offenses so successful.

You can't just mention teams that ran no PG offenses without mentioning who else was on the team. It's a completely specious argument to make, especially in regards to our own offense... which we haven't even seen yet.

I think you’re missing out on a couple elements:

Booker has already shown an ability to create for others despite the fact that he hasn’t been surrounded by much talent. As he progresses he could be a playmaker along the lines of those non-pg players you listed. JJ was thought to have hat ability but he’s only a sophomore having gotten crappy coaching. I don’t think pippen or even Jordan were facilitating others right outta college. And everyone else we have is so young we don’t know what they can develop into. Ayton was a good passer outta the post in college. Could he become a Duncan or Hakeem like facilitator? Maybe. Will that all happen this year? Likely not. But this team is young. In could happen. And . . .

If igor’s Offense really is more like the triangle or Pops spurs it doesn’t require a traditional pg of those young players do Pam out into playmakers. Am I saying I expect all that? No. But it could happen. I won’t discount that possibility.

 

[Yuma]

And I think we need a point guard that will help that development, or at least not create a significant obstacle to that development. Out of curiosity, other than the point guards with bad, me-first attitudes like Mike James, who have you seen in a Suns uniform that is worse than Harrison? From my perspective, in terms of ability for the position, I have not seen worse since I started following the Suns in 1975.

Sebastian Telfair was a train wreck. Seriously, we just shipped off Brandon Knight and kept Harrison! Seriously! Arguably Harrison > Knight just by that alone. LOL. Those are just two obvious ones. While Ernie DeGragario had pedigree and some skills, he was just a mess during his time in Phoenix. Look at last season some of the guys we started. Just last season! Mike James, Tyler Uliss? Could have kept Tyler over Harrison, and with the bonus he was Booker's pal, too.

OK, I see you did say Mike James. But me first attitudes are part of what makes a PG bad. You can't throw out a whole raft of guys just because of that. That's like saying, aside from the guys who can't dribble, who is worse? LOL.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I have seen a number of articles at azcentral, brightsideofthesuns and fansided to that effect, as well as hearing statements made in interviews on KTAR.

Here are a few examples:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BhAB&usg=AOvVaw2ENyKUt9RVjTOiQSxcBSdM&ampcf=1

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...CBAB&usg=AOvVaw3DKHXmXJcEjID3E0mMd-Tr&ampcf=1

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw0EtPLUDC-msVBeLXxwGsY-&ampcf=1

Please show me

I have seen a number of articles at azcentral, brightsideofthesuns and fansided to that effect, as well as hearing statements made in interviews on KTAR.

Here are a few examples:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BhAB&usg=AOvVaw2ENyKUt9RVjTOiQSxcBSdM&ampcf=1

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...CBAB&usg=AOvVaw3DKHXmXJcEjID3E0mMd-Tr&ampcf=1

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw0EtPLUDC-msVBeLXxwGsY-&ampcf=1

LOL, you know bright side of the sun is not a suns “source,” right? The only article that you just posted that quotes anyone suns related was a summer league article quoting Igor right after Shaq had performed well. Nothing that you’ve posted provides any insight into how the team views Harrison’s role. I appreciate your passion, but you’re way off base on many of comments and Chap’s right, you’re an alarmist if epic proportions (and that’s coming from someone who is regularly called out on these boards as overly negative).

 

[BC867]

I swear that BC and 1Sun are the same person.

Not the same person, but I very much see eye to eye with his/her point of view.

I'm a "his". And a senior citizen with 32 years on you.

It's amazing that, despite coming from different generations, our posts since you joined have been so similar.

I don't expect everyone to agree with us. But I hope they consider the points we raise, just as we do theirs. And the objective way in which we do it.

Some weeks ago, I put one poster on ignore, because he turned every dissenting opinion into a personal affront. I really enjoy the ASFN site, but not if it becomes stressful.

I know there have been times when I became repetitive and I've been working on it. I'm happy to say that, to a large degree, ASFN and the two boards which preceded it have been great experiences!

 

[Phrazbit]

This conversation makes my head hurt.

If you're worried about ball handling and play making then Patrick Beverly should not be on your list of solutions. He doesn't help those areas in the slightest.

 

[Yuma]

1Sun seems worried that our inferior PGs are going to stunt the growth of our players. I am on maybe an island here, but I am not worried about that happening. Difference of opinion. I think McD should not overpay for the guys available that have been listed recently. None of them will help develop our guys, imho, any more than the guys we have now. If we go up a notch in PGs, yes arguably they could help, and you get into the A list of PGs yes those guys would definitely help our guys develop. Beverly I consider average PG for NBA. Difference of opinion, but I am not seeing that much more of a benefit while giving up assets like a first round pick, over what we have now. Worth a first round pick? I am with McD on this, no way.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you’re missing out on a couple elements:

Booker has already shown an ability to create for others despite the fact that he hasn’t been surrounded by much talent. As he progresses he could be a playmaker along the lines of those non-pg players you listed.

I did note that Booker has an ability to create for others. I just don't think he's got that level of ability at this point. And to be honest, even assuming he does get better at it (which I think he will), I'd be STUNNED if he reaches the level of a Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc for a host of reasons, most coming from sheer freaking athleticism to ball handling (in the case of Jordan/Pippen) to size and ball handling (in the case of Kukoc).

And remember JC's argument is that right now, PG isn't that big of a deal because of the motion offense. The above is talking about Booker's progression over the next couple years.

JJ was thought to have hat ability but he’s only a sophomore having gotten crappy coaching.

Well, I gotta see it before I start believing it and even if we see progress, expecting him to be a Triangle Level Pippen creator isn't going to happen within this season and likely next.

I don’t think pippen or even Jordan were facilitating others right outta college. And everyone else we have is so young we don’t know what they can develop into.

You're right... Pippen and Jordan weren't facilitators out of college, but that's immaterial to the discussion when JC talks about the Triangle Offense being proof you don't need a PG. Remember, they were in their 4th and 5th years respectively when they started running the Triangle and by that time both had achieved stars/mega-stars status who had shown offense creating abilities by that time. So what they were coming out of college doesn't matter because they weren't running the offense that JC held up as proof that you don't need a PG. Once they did start playing the Triangle, both were superior creators at their positions.

Ayton was a good passer outta the post in college. Could he become a Duncan or Hakeem like facilitator? Maybe. Will that all happen this year? Likely not. But this team is young. In could happen. And . . .

It could happen... and I'm hoping that eventually it will happen, but I don't believe that's it's a stretch to believe it's going to take a couple years for it do so because as of right now Booker/JJ/Ayton as a ********* or individually are just light-years away from the guys who were running those offenses all in their primes. And even if you counter that Duncan won a title in only his second year, remember again, Duncan came out seemingly fully formed after playing in college for 3 (or was it all 4) years. And he had Avery Johnson who was a pure PG AND had David Robinson who could create for others.

If igor’s Offense really is more like the triangle or Pops spurs it doesn’t require a traditional pg of those young players do Pam out into playmakers. Am I saying I expect all that? No. But it could happen. I won’t discount that possibility.

again, all of that COULD happen, but it's not going to happen this season or even next and considering this entire conversation is about how the team is going to run THIS SEASON, bringing up those offenses in regards to how this can work right now doesn't hold much water.

And even with all that said, I just realized I haven't even mentioned maybe the most obvious thing when discussing those offenses and their ability to work sans PG... they were both coached by arguably two of the best coaches of all time. Holding those two offenses up as examples non-PG offenses can work seems silly to me when you consider the level of coaching and talent that made those offenses so successful in the first place.

 

[elindholm]

If there’s no deal to make there’s no deal to make.

Especially once you've cashed in your best trade chip for the fourth SF on the roster.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Especially once you've cashed in your best trade chip for the fourth SF on the roster.

man, when you put it that way... oy.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I did note that Booker has an ability to create for others. I just don't think he's got that level of ability at this point. And to be honest, even assuming he does get better at it (which I think he will), I'd be STUNNED if he reaches the level of a Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc for a host of reasons, most coming from sheer freaking athleticism to ball handling (in the case of Jordan/Pippen) to size and ball handling (in the case of Kukoc).

And remember JC's argument is that right now, PG isn't that big of a deal because of the motion offense. The above is talking about Booker's progression over the next couple years.



Well, I gotta see it before I start believing it and even if we see progress, expecting him to be a Triangle Level Pippen creator isn't going to happen within this season and likely next.



You're right... Pippen and Jordan weren't facilitators out of college, but that's immaterial to the discussion when JC talks about the Triangle Offense being proof you don't need a PG. Remember, they were in their 4th and 5th years respectively when they started running the Triangle and by that time both had achieved stars/mega-stars status who had shown offense creating abilities by that time. So what they were coming out of college doesn't matter because they weren't running the offense that JC held up as proof that you don't need a PG. Once they did start playing the Triangle, both were superior creators at their positions.



It could happen... and I'm hoping that eventually it will happen, but I don't believe that's it's a stretch to believe it's going to take a couple years for it do so because as of right now Booker/JJ/Ayton as a ********* or individually are just light-years away from the guys who were running those offenses all in their primes. And even if you counter that Duncan won a title in only his second year, remember again, Duncan came out seemingly fully formed after playing in college for 3 (or was it all 4) years. And he had Avery Johnson who was a pure PG AND had David Robinson who could create for others.



again, all of that COULD happen, but it's not going to happen this season or even next and considering this entire conversation is about how the team is going to run THIS SEASON, bringing up those offenses in regards to how this can work right now doesn't hold much water.

And even with all that said, I just realized I haven't even mentioned maybe the most obvious thing when discussing those offenses and their ability to work sans PG... they were both coached by arguably two of the best coaches of all time. Holding those two offenses up as examples non-PG offenses can work seems silly to me when you consider the level of coaching and talent that made those offenses so successful in the first place.

I did not say you don’t need a pg. You don’t necessarily need the one guy who creates for everyone else.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I did not say you don’t need a pg. You don’t necessarily need the one guy who creates for everyone else.

Okay... I think you somehow missed the entire point of my argument above. So, let's try this one last time. Trying to be super clear here:

Your argument is that motion offenses don't need the PG to create for everyone else, right? And your evidence is that it worked for the Triangle and Popovich. Is that right?

If so,I don't begrudge your first statement. Pop and the Triangle did work.

My argument is that I believe those offenses didn't need the PG to be the one guy who creates because those offenses had multiple high level creators... the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen during their first 3-peat and then Jordan, Pippen and Kukoc for their second. Meanwhile, Avery Johnson (who was a pure PG), Duncan and Robinson could all create for themselves and others during their first title and then Duncan, Parker and Ginobli did so for the dynasty Spurs.

Again, those teams you mentioned who were successful with motion offenses had multiple next level creators, most of which were also HOF level players which why it was possible for them to run offenses without one guy who creates for everyone else. We don't have that. We have Booker, who right now is a great creator of his own offense and has shown good playmaking abilities for teammates. And that it's it right now. I hope that one day Booker can reach Jordan's level of offense creating for others like he did when he was running the Triangle and that Josh Jackson can reach a Pippen-level of creation on offense... or that Ayton can reach Duncan's ability to create offense for himself and others. Because to run offenses like Pop or Phil did, you're going to need at least 2 of those 3 to happen, if not all 3. Fortunately, I DO think that in a perfect world, or even somewhat perfect world, those days CAN happen. Unfortunately, I don't think those days are happening this season. We might see flashes of it, but sustained success isn't coming down the pike for a couple years, IMO.

Does that make sense? I just think it's extremely hard to say Igor's offense can work right now because he doesn't have multiple next-level playmakers needed at different positions which would allow his motion offense to follow in Pop or Phil's footsteps.

 

[Yuma]

man, when you put it that way... oy.

Yeah, but Bridges looks an upgrade just briefly from what I saw in Summer League. Even if you have an all star at a position, if you see a guy in the draft BETTER than that at the same position you take him. Even though it wasn't a weakness on your team, you find a guy better than your all star, grab them. That gives you tons of options going forward. I don't care if you have Wilt Chamberlain, like the Lakers did have, even though it was a trade, you get a chance at a young Lew Alicindor (Kareem), you take it! Perhaps, in the future we look back and that extra pick may look like a bargain. Always upgrade your positions if you have the chance.

 

[Chaplin]

Especially once you've cashed in your best trade chip for the fourth SF on the roster.

Semantics, but at the time he was the third on the roster. Ariza was the fourth.