Expectations for the new players

[Hoop Head]

I find it interesting that so many people talk as though we have had good play making guards up until now. Consider the assist to turnover ratios from the last few years (ordered by minutes)
2013-4 Bledsoe 1.7, Dragic 2.1, Barbosa 1.7, Ish Smith 2.9 and we didn't keep him
2014-5 Bledsoe 1.8, Knight 1.8
2015-6 Bledsoe 1.7, Knight 1.5 (Booker 1.3)
2016-7 Bledsoe 1.9, Knight 1.5, Ulis 2.9 (Booker 1.1)
2017-8 Payton 2.3, Ulis 2.4, Canaan 2.6, Harrison 2.5 (Booker 1.3)

I added Booker just in case you were wondering. The league average for all PGs was 2.4 this last season so our PGs in recent times have been well below average as playmakers. Canaan and Harrison promise to be a breath of fresh air.

I don't believe anyone thinks we had good playmaking prior to this year but we at least had PG's who belonged in the NBA. They may have been average or below average playmakers but they were capable of scoring 20+ points a game and playing average to good defense. They also required someone guard them when they were within 25 feet of the basket. If you don't see past the stats and see why having Bledsoe, Dragic, IT, and Knight was better than Harrison, Canaan, and Okobo then you're just not viewing the whole picture.

Everyone admits we've been bad the last few years. Downgrading the PG position when we finally upgrade every other position is not the way to improve our future. The Suns need to improve quite a bit to become a playoff team and while we won't be this year we should win 10 more games than we did last season. The years of 50+ losses are hopefully over. We have a lot more talent on the roster now, not just starting but also in our 2nd unit, at every position but PG where we went from having borderline All-Stars like Bledsoe and Dragic to 2 guys who weren't even G-League All-Stars in Harrison and Canaan.

 

[Mainstreet]

It's too bad the situation with Payton didn't work out. I would have been comfortable with him starting with the Suns backup point guards. I'm not sure the Suns find anyone better at this late stage.

 

[elindholm]

maybe there should be an "expectations for Igor" thread. For all the talk of Igor's "system", no one here has ever seen it in the NBA and in Europe, he had multiple VERY GOOD playmakers, one who some people regarded as a generational talent. This team right now has one OKAY playmaker in Booker... and that is IT. Literally, no one else who's shown the ability to run ANY kind of offense. Unless Igor is reinventing the offensive wheel, with literally nothing at PG and only one still VERY YOUNG okay playmaker for others in Booker, the above seems like it's setting him up to fail, at least expectations-wise. You don't have to have a pg dominant offense, but to expect this free-flowing "system" of the ball moving around with the talent on this team as currently constructed seems really naive, IMO.

I agree. The notion that Kokoskov is going to immediately establish himself as a top-ten coach in this league is weirdly pervasive on this board. We're so relieved that the new hire is not obviously an idiot that we're forgetting how low the standard has gotten.

 

[elindholm]

We need to come to terms with Booker as or PG.

That writing has been on the wall since the draft.

 

[GatorAZ]

I agree. The notion that Kokoskov is going to immediately establish himself as a top-ten coach in this league is weirdly pervasive on this board. We're so relieved that the new hire is not obviously an idiot that we're forgetting how low the standard has gotten.

Yep there’s a much better chance he’s in over his head and flames out then becomes an elite HC. We have question marks everywhere including head coach and GM.

 

[Mainstreet]

We need to come to terms with Booker as or PG.

I haven't come to terms with Booker being the Suns primary PG. When teams start to make their cuts I expect the Suns to add a veteran guard.

However, I think the Suns desire to add Redick goes a long ways to support your argument with the Suns starting two guards and not necessarily a point guard.

Maybe the Suns go back to their idea of two guards that can handle and shoot the ball.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I liked our coaching hire but I have no expectations about Koko. Even experienced Head Coaches come in and fail so it will be no shock if he is soon on the firing block. I feel good about the guy but hiring a new coach is always a gamble; hiring a first time NBA Head Coach makes it even more of a risk.

 

[Superbone]

I liked our coaching hire but I have no expectations about Koko. Even experienced Head Coaches come in and fail so it will be no shock if he is soon on the firing block. I feel good about the guy but hiring a new coach is always a gamble; hiring a first time NBA Head Coach makes it even more of a risk.

I personally have a very good feeling about Kokoskov. I would be shocked if he was soon on the firing block. I think he's going to have a very positive impact on this team. I'm excited for the season to start. Booker or no Booker.

 

[BC867]

Booker is not a PG. That was evident last year when he tried covering the position. He's not a PG and forcing him into that role full time will only lead to stunting his development as one of the best young shooting guards in the game. He doesn't have the court vision of a good PG. He sees the floor well for himself but not to set up others.

Harden is the only SG that's moved to PG with any success and they went out and acquired a PG to move him back to SG after 1 year of that. That was in D'Antoni's system also where the plan was to put the ball in Harden's hands as much as possible anyways. Harden played some PG in OKC before he was traded to Houston also. He was viewed as more of a combo guard coming into the league while Booker is a prototypical shooting guard, for better or worse.

Other top SG's throughout league history haven't been forcefully moved from SG to PG though and the Suns would be foolish to do with Booker outside of some small stretched because of injuries. Covering a few games is one thing, pushing him there for an entire season and without a way to move him back if he fails is only setting the whole team up for failure.

You're absolutely right! And there is another important consideration. Playing our best scorer at the Point will also wear him down.

Which tends to lead to not just deterioration of his game as the season wears on, and the split second timing required to excel, but potential injuries as well.

How I hope that, when Booker returns and is in game shape, the Suns do not weaken both Guard positions by moving him and/or expecting him to do both and take us to the next level.

And then there is the question of defense. Would he guard Point Guards (which puts him at a disadvantage and is very tiring) or would he have to switch players after every offensive and defensive play?

Why would anyone in their right mind want to put up that many roadblocks for his success?

 

[BC867]

I liked our coaching hire but I have no expectations about Koko. Even experienced Head Coaches come in and fail so it will be no shock if he is soon on the firing block. I feel good about the guy but hiring a new coach is always a gamble; hiring a first time NBA Head Coach makes it even more of a risk.

That is exactly what is happening with the D-backs manager Torey Luvullo. We are in the stretch run and he still announces to the Press regularly that he'll try something different the next game.

We can only hope that Koko has greater foresight and vision than Lovullo.

 

[Errntknght]

Kokoskov has been coaching in the NBA for twenty years in addition to being a head coach in Europe. With success at every turn. I admit I have high expectations for him - I particularly like that he gives high weight to defense, as we glimpsed in the SL. I even have confidence that he can fix the Harrison-Ayton connection. Whether or not he can mend Harrison's shot, that's an iffier matter, at least in the short run.

I'm truly mystified why anyone is high on Booker as a PG. Yes he makes an occasional nice assist pass but he has never had success running the team at point. Thanks to BC for pointing out all the downsides to playing him there. I think he can thrive in Koko's offense and do his share of moving the ball. I think Reed can thrive as well as he surprised me in SL with his playmaking.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That is exactly what is happening with the D-backs manager Torey Luvullo. We are in the stretch run and he still announces to the Press regularly that he'll try something different the next game.

We can only hope that Koko has greater foresight and vision than Lovullo.

And if he told the press that despite losing games regularly he was going to trot out the same lineup, the same relief staff and so on? I do believe there'd be fans using the "definition of insanity" to attack him. I don't really know if Torey is going to succeed or not but winning is about the only cure for complaints such as yours (or the one I just used).

 

[GatorAZ]

Kokoskov has been coaching in the NBA for twenty years in addition to being a head coach in Europe. With success at every turn. I admit I have high expectations for him - I particularly like that he gives high weight to defense, as we glimpsed in the SL. I even have confidence that he can fix the Harrison-Ayton connection. Whether or not he can mend Harrison's shot, that's an iffier matter, at least in the short run.

I'm truly mystified why anyone is high on Booker as a PG. Yes he makes an occasional nice assist pass but he has never had success running the team at point. Thanks to BC for pointing out all the downsides to playing him there. I think he can thrive in Koko's offense and do his share of moving the ball. I think Reed can thrive as well as he surprised me in SL with his playmaking.

It has more to do with our crop of PG’s than it does Booker.

 

[Mainstreet]

Back to the Suns interest in Redick.

I believe if the Suns signed him he would be starting alongside Booker. This may show some insight into the Suns thinking. Maybe McDonough has never given up on the two PG system for the lack of a better name.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We are in for a different era of Suns basketball. Almost every personnel move this summer had a defensive focus. Ryan Anderson was the exception, but he is still a better defender than Chriss or Knight (yes).

This team will be defense oriented. This team will be half-court oriented. The running game will only be opportunistic. We have always been very much point guard focused. I think the only purpose for the pg in the offense he will run is to bring the ball up the floor and make an initial pass. Every one of our point guards is capable of that. It will not require a pg to create for everyone else, the motion of the offense will do that. That is why I am not worried about Ayton getting touches. If he moves, he will get the ball.

This is what I am expecting (hoping for?).

 

[JCSunsfan]

More photos from informal workouts.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You're absolutely right! And there is another important consideration. Playing our best scorer at the Point will also wear him down.

?

You’ve been saying this for months but I don’t get where came up with this doctrine. There have historically been scoring heavy point guards like KJ, Isaiah Thomas, Tim hardaway, Curry, lilliard, etc etc and they don’t get worn down just because they’re a pg. I don’t think this argument holds water.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You’ve been saying this for months but I don’t get where came up with this doctrine. There have historically been scoring heavy point guards like KJ, Isaiah Thomas, Tim hardaway, Curry, lilliard, etc etc and they don’t get worn down just because they’re a pg. I don’t think this argument holds water.

The only reason it holds water for Booker is that he has been the only real threat on offense. Put some talent around him so he isn't double or triple teamed every time he gets the ball and I think he can do spot duty at the 1. It's not ideal, he's the perfect offensive weapon as a shooting guard, but for short stretches it should work IMO.

 

[Phrazbit]

You’ve been saying this for months but I don’t get where came up with this doctrine. There have historically been scoring heavy point guards like KJ, Isaiah Thomas, Tim hardaway, Curry, lilliard, etc etc and they don’t get worn down just because they’re a pg. I don’t think this argument holds water.

And it ignores that literally every team with a true star (that isn't a center or PF) has that star essentially handle all the duties of a point guard.

If Booker is the player we all hope that he is then he SHOULD be able to handle the lions share of the offensive play making.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The only reason it holds water for Booker is that he has been the only real threat on offense. Put some talent around him so he isn't double or triple teamed every time he gets the ball and I think he can do spot duty at the 1. It's not ideal, he's the perfect offensive weapon as a shooting guard, but for short stretches it should work IMO.

Understand, I don’t think - or want - booker to be our pg. he’s best utilized at the 2. I just don’t buy the argument that playing pg and carrying scoring responsibility creates additional wear and tear. If he played 48 mins/night, okay. If it necessitated him taking more physical abuse in the paint, okay. But just playing pg alone shouldn’t be a debilitating undertaking . . . especially for a young guy.

 

[Cheesebeef]

We are in for a different era of Suns basketball. Almost every personnel move this summer had a defensive focus. Ryan Anderson was the exception, but he is still a better defender than Chriss or Knight (yes).

This team will be defense oriented. This team will be half-court oriented. The running game will only be opportunistic. We have always been very much point guard focused. I think the only purpose for the pg in the offense he will run is to bring the ball up the floor and make an initial pass. Every one of our point guards is capable of that. It will not require a pg to create for everyone else, the motion of the offense will do that. That is why I am not worried about Ayton getting touches. If he moves, he will get the ball.

This is what I am expecting (hoping for?).

Sorry if this comes off harsh, but... WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!

I mean... you're expecting or even hoping for some kind of defensive dynamic team? And we're going to have this reinvention of the wheel offense where the only reason we need a PG is to dribble up the floor, make the first pass... and then he can just drop dead? The "motion offense" will create for others.

I'm becoming as incredulous at "the motion offense" as I was back in 2003 when moronic Cardinals Fans kept pimping Jerry Sullivan's "Innovative Offense" that ended up being the most atrocious offense I've ever seen.

Seriously... explain to me exactly what this motion offense is. Have you watched Igor have success with it with you own eyes? Are you privy to practices? Did you even see a SHRED of evidence of this in the summer league? Can you even name me another "motion offense" that's been successful? Even better... how about a motion offense without ONE actual playmaker? I'd love to get answers to these questions simply because I want to know where in the world your confidence in the "motion offense" comes from because it is a completely baffling mystery to me.

 

[BC867]

And if he told the press that despite losing games regularly he was going to trot out the same lineup, the same relief staff and so on? I do believe there'd be fans using the "definition of insanity" to attack him. I don't really know if Torey is going to succeed or not but winning is about the only cure for complaints such as yours (or the one I just used).

Exactly! It is sad to see a Manager experiment and alibi in September.

Just the one example. Souza suggested to Tory that he has experience batting leadoff and it worked. Until Tory abandoned it a few days later. That is my gripe with a leader who can't stay focused.

OK, back to the Suns. I don't expect Koko to follow that path.

 

[BC867]

You’ve been saying this for months but I don’t get where came up with this doctrine. There have historically been scoring heavy point guards like KJ, Isaiah Thomas, Tim hardaway, Curry, lilliard, etc etc and they don’t get worn down just because they’re a pg. I don’t think this argument holds water.

I wasn't talking about a Point Guard who can score. There have been plenty, such as KJ and Nash.

We're talking about turning a young Shooting Guard into a lead facilitator, because we don't have a competitive one. And, also, guarding the quick Point Guards. Or the split second confusion of having to guard a player not near him every time down the court if he is not going to guard Point Guards.

A leader's job is to make it simple (as opposed to complex) for his people to do the job well. I should hope that the whole damn Front Office isn't saying, "We don't need a Point Guard, we'll use Devin."

I don't think I've ever posted, "Mark my words ..." But I will now. Whether fatigue or injury, if the Suns don't get a role-playing Point Guard for the season, you, I, they and Booker are going to regret it.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't know where Igor's O acquired the name 'motion offense' - I don't reccall him labelling it that. Adelmann ran a version of the Princeton offense, using frequent pinch post manuevers with Webber setting up at the elbow. The Triangle is considered a motion offense. Those are the two best known versions that have been used in the NBA. I don't know if you'd call Pops recent offense a motion offense but it does involve a lot of player movement and passing by everyone.

I watched three or four games of Kokoskov's national team. It didn't stand out as a motion offense of a type i've seen. The principal play was a high pick and roll at the top of the key. Donic was the instigator usually with the C as the pick man. He rarely drove off the pick - he'd move back and forth, looking for a clear jumper and made some very nice passes when the pick man rolled to the hoop. It was more like a two man game than a classic P&R. Typically Goran was the PG and Donic never was. Both Dragic and Doncic tried to dribble penetrate and the latter was rarely successful - typically he'd wind up with a step back jumper. If you know your motion offenses, dribble penetration is used rarely - the motion O is often characterized as pass and cut - in effect, lots of variations on the old give and go. I don't recall a great reliance on that in Igor's offense. I wasn't making a study of it, though, having no idea he'd be our coach.

I'd expect to see Ayton setting those high picks, probably with Booker at the throttle. But we'll undoubtedly see plenty of Ayton in the low post like we did in summer league, too.

I don't know if many of you recall but Frank Johnson had the Suns running a motion offense, a pinch post version no less. It was an ugly mess and doomed by the fact that we had no one remotely a threat as the post man.

 

[Phrazbit]

I suspect we could run Booker/Ayton pick and rolls for 80% of the offense while they're on the court together, and regardless the defense knowing it's coming, that offense would be a drastic improvement over what we've seen the last couple years.

This is also one of the areas that I think Anderson (Bridges too) will help out a lot. The 'top of the arch pick and roll' is a lot more effective when there are actual 3pt threats running around trying to get open in the corners.