Expectations for the new players

[Mainstreet]

Evan Sidery writes an article about the Suns player personnel moves starting with the 2015-16 season and their focus to build around Devin Booker.

It is sort of a refresher article for those who want to take another look at it.

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/...t=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm sure I'm not the only one eager for the Suns to start training camp on September 25th. It has been a long off season.

It can't come quick enough.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1638345/phoenix-suns-announce-training-camp-dates-at-nau/

 

[95pro]

I'm sure I'm not the only one eager for the Suns to start training camp on September 25th. It has been a long off season.

It can't come quick enough.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1638345/phoenix-suns-announce-training-camp-dates-at-nau/

We always build ourselves up for the start of the season, and then...we'd wish it would end.

Hopefully we turn it around this year.

 

[JCSunsfan]

And it ignores that literally every team with a true star (that isn't a center or PF) has that star essentially handle all the duties of a point guard.

If Booker is the player we all hope that he is then he SHOULD be able to handle the lions share of the offensive play making.

Yup. Harden, LeBron, Wade (in the past). Even look at Jordan. The 90's Bulls point guard was effectively Michael Jordan. That offense did not run a traditional pg. Neither BJ Armstrong or Ron Harper averaged more than 3.5 assists during their time with the Bulls.

The fact is that if you are a star player, especially a guard, the ball is going to be in your hands as the half court game initiates. Its hard for us who watched Steve Nash run everything for us for all those years to contemplate an offense running differently.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I wasn't talking about a Point Guard who can score. There have been plenty, such as KJ and Nash.

We're talking about turning a young Shooting Guard into a lead facilitator, because we don't have a competitive one. And, also, guarding the quick Point Guards. Or the split second confusion of having to guard a player not near him every time down the court if he is not going to guard Point Guards.

A leader's job is to make it simple (as opposed to complex) for his people to do the job well. I should hope that the whole damn Front Office isn't saying, "We don't need a Point Guard, we'll use Devin."

I don't think I've ever posted, "Mark my words ..." But I will now. Whether fatigue or injury, if the Suns don't get a role-playing Point Guard for the season, you, I, they and Booker are going to regret it.

This is easy. Booker running the point does not mean he has to guard the point--and that will not create confusion. Teams play D like this all the time.

 

[95pro]

This is easy. Booker running the point does not mean he has to guard the point--and that will not create confusion. Teams play D like this all the time.

i.e. cross matches

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't know where Igor's O acquired the name 'motion offense' - I don't reccall him labelling it that. Adelmann ran a version of the Princeton offense, using frequent pinch post manuevers with Webber setting up at the elbow. The Triangle is considered a motion offense. Those are the two best known versions that have been used in the NBA. I don't know if you'd call Pops recent offense a motion offense but it does involve a lot of player movement and passing by everyone.

I watched three or four games of Kokoskov's national team. It didn't stand out as a motion offense of a type i've seen. The principal play was a high pick and roll at the top of the key. Donic was the instigator usually with the C as the pick man. He rarely drove off the pick - he'd move back and forth, looking for a clear jumper and made some very nice passes when the pick man rolled to the hoop. It was more like a two man game than a classic P&R. Typically Goran was the PG and Donic never was. Both Dragic and Doncic tried to dribble penetrate and the latter was rarely successful - typically he'd wind up with a step back jumper. If you know your motion offenses, dribble penetration is used rarely - the motion O is often characterized as pass and cut - in effect, lots of variations on the old give and go. I don't recall a great reliance on that in Igor's offense. I wasn't making a study of it, though, having no idea he'd be our coach.

I'd expect to see Ayton setting those high picks, probably with Booker at the throttle. But we'll undoubtedly see plenty of Ayton in the low post like we did in summer league, too.

I don't know if many of you recall but Frank Johnson had the Suns running a motion offense, a pinch post version no less. It was an ugly mess and doomed by the fact that we had no one remotely a threat as the post man.

I have been studying his national team offense as well. It involves the pick and roll but not in the traditional nba sense. The traditional NBA pick and roll usually includes a guard and a big isolating away from the group and running the play. Kokoskov's offense is a series of repeated pick and rolls in quick succession--sometimes two picks before the roll--all happening at the top of the key area. Eventually a defender misses a switch or cannot follow his man and you get an open jumper or a free lane to the hoop. The ball changes hands quickly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yup. Harden, LeBron, Wade (in the past). Even look at Jordan. The 90's Bulls point guard was effectively Michael Jordan. That offense did not run a traditional pg. Neither BJ Armstrong or Ron Harper averaged more than 3.5 assists during their time with the Bulls.

The fact is that if you are a star player, especially a guard, the ball is going to be in your hands as the half court game initiates. Its hard for us who watched Steve Nash run everything for us for all those years to contemplate an offense running differently.

The fact is that we don't have anyone CLOSE to being the creators that LeBron, Harden, Jordan and Pippen (who you forgot to mention), all of which were the principals driving factors in their offenses functioning. And all, Harden's team wasn't a true contender until he got another LEGIT creator with Chris Paul, not to mention LeBron's Cavs without another legit creator (Kyrie) weren't nearly as good as before.

You brought up some of the greatest players of all time, all of which were excellent creators for themselves and others and failed to recognize that when their offenses were truly successful, they also had a major partner in crime creating for themselves and others as well.

We literally don't even have the first piece of that puzzle, much less a dynamic number 2 creator to run any kind of offense. Booker is a great scorer, but he's nowhere near the creator any of those guys you mentioned are.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Back to the Suns interest in Redick.

I believe if the Suns signed him he would be starting alongside Booker. This may show some insight into the Suns thinking. Maybe McDonough has never given up on the two PG system for the lack of a better name.

A Reddick/Booker backcourt isn't a two PG system. That's a NO POINT GUARD SYSTEM.

Have you ever actually watched Reddick play in the NBA? He is in NO WAY a playmaker, whatsoever.

 

[Mainstreet]

A Reddick/Booker backcourt isn't a two PG system. That's a NO POINT GUARD SYSTEM.

Have you ever actually watched Reddick play in the NBA? He is in NO WAY a playmaker, whatsoever.

It was a head scratcher for me as well that the Suns were interested in Redick. I was trying to figure out where they would play him. It would not have shocked me if the Suns wanted to start Redick and Booker in the same backcourt.

Interesting enough "Basketball Reference" has his position listed as a "Point Guard and Shooting Guard."


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/redicjj01.html

 

[Mainstreet]

We always build ourselves up for the start of the season, and then...we'd wish it would end.

Hopefully we turn it around this year.

My antidote for this is concentrating on the young players. I started getting interested in the Suns by attending camps. The enjoyment has stuck with me.

 

[1Sun]

My antidote for this is concentrating on the young players. I started getting interested in the Suns by attending camps. The enjoyment has stuck with me.

As long as the young players don't regress, zone out or become malcontents due to poor point guard play...

 

[Yuma]

I am more hopeful young guys would play harder coming into camp at the PG position knowing they have a legit shot to earn big minutes, rather than being mired behind an all star 32 minutes or more a night guy.

 

[1Sun]

I am more hopeful young guys would play harder coming into camp at the PG position knowing they have a legit shot to earn big minutes, rather than being mired behind an all star 32 minutes or more a night guy.

I'm talking about the core (Booker and especially Ayton, Jackson and Bridges), not Okobo and Melton, who I think do have potential, but who I also think are at least 2-3 years away from being able to play on an NBA level.

 

[Yuma]

I'm talking about the core (Booker and especially Ayton, Jackson and Bridges), not Okobo and Melton, who I think do have potential, but who I also think are at least 2-3 years away from being able to play on an NBA level.

I am not worried. Booker is light years from where he was in his first game as a Sun. There's a maturation and honing your trade process that takes time and just a certain amount of games played. Josh Jackson showed a tremendous growth in just one season. JJ was a turn over machine his first few games. Down the stretch JJ was an entirely different guy than the player who started the season. Ayton and Bridges are a good season away like JJ from hitting their strides. Watching their growth is what I have been doing these past few seasons. I don't watch for wins. I watch to see the development. I don't think having a lack of PG, especially in Booker's and JJ's case, where they both learned how to bring the ball up and start plays, has hurt either. If anything, it probably taught them what a PG would need from you to get open enough to receive a pass and start a play, after seeing what it looks like from the PG perspective. You don't want this to be the case their whole careers, but I am not worried it is going to stunt their growth.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm talking about the core (Booker and especially Ayton, Jackson and Bridges), not Okobo and Melton, who I think do have potential, but who I also think are at least 2-3 years away from being able to play on an NBA level.

No matter what, we are NOT going to get a PG that will be part of the "core" before the season kicks off. Just isn't going to happen. So do you want to sacrifice some assets for a stopgap solution -- like Beverley -- or just go with what we got? Right now, until he proves otherwise, Beverley is damaged goods and isn't worth the assets we'd have to give up to get him.

Every team in the league KNOWS we need a point guard, so no matter where you go, they will want more than the Suns should be willing to part with.

 

[JCSunsfan]

No matter what, we are NOT going to get a PG that will be part of the "core" before the season kicks off. Just isn't going to happen. So do you want to sacrifice some assets for a stopgap solution -- like Beverley -- or just go with what we got? Right now, until he proves otherwise, Beverley is damaged goods and isn't worth the assets we'd have to give up to get him.

Every team in the league KNOWS we need a point guard, so no matter where you go, they will want more than the Suns should be willing to part with.

There are teams like the Clippers who are going to have to cut someone. So it will be a game of chicken. McD has his shortcomings, but he has shown in this type of situation (I am thinking Markieff) that he will wait longer than most are willing to get what he wants.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Vid from pickup games. Tyson is there. In fact, it looks like EVERYONE is there, including Book. JJ's jumper looks better? Or is it just me?

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[Chris_Sanders]

Yes Booker has been there. He has even been taking left handed jumpers.

These guys seem to get along

 

[Hoop Head]

I've really enjoyed the videos that various players have put out this offseason. I don't remember seeing a group of Suns players that seemed so close. It may just be having a ton of young players that utilize social media but I think it's more than that and they've taken an actual liking to their teammates. Every time you see one of them somewhere there are at least 3 or 4 more there with them. Chemistry should be good if they get along as you'd think from social media.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I've really enjoyed the videos that various players have put out this offseason. I don't remember seeing a group of Suns players that seemed so close. It may just be having a ton of young players that utilize social media but I think it's more than that and they've taken an actual liking to their teammates. Every time you see one of them somewhere there are at least 3 or 4 more there with them. Chemistry should be good if they get along as you'd think from social media.

They are young, but they also know they have talent. Ayton gives them a big, high profile, young player to sort of rally around. Booker is now the vet leader of this group. Its one thing to be young and want to prove yourself, its quite another to know you have the talent to do so given the right circumstances. This team has the pieces. They are young but the talent is there.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think Ariza's addition is a confidence booster for Booker and helps solidify his role as the leader also. Ariza has always been viewed as one of the better perimeter defenders in the game and now he's signed to play with all of our youngsters and he knows this is Booker's team. It's one thing to have a vet like Chandler here and willing to follow Booker as he's evolved but it's another to have a veteran join the team to take part in what you're doing. The other players can see that and knowing Ariza left a team that was an injury away from a possible finals trip has to boost some of their egos. Hopefully it keeps them from feeling down about having the worst record in the league.

 

[Suns_fan69]

It's one thing to have a vet like Chandler here and willing to follow Booker as he's evolved but it's another to have a veteran join the team to take part in what you're doing. The other players can see that and knowing Ariza left a team that was an injury away from a possible finals trip has to boost some of their egos. Hopefully it keeps them from feeling down about having the worst record in the league.

Eh... I suspect most of them see the real 15 million reasons Ariza joined the team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Eh... I suspect most of them see the real 15 million reasons Ariza joined the team.

I'm sure you're right.

 

[BC867]

Talking about expectations for the new players, I expect that Ayton will feel the need to lead the team on offense until Booker returns.

Center or not, that would be a lot of pressure for a rookie to feel. I hope, somehow, it does not lead to getting off on the wrong foot.

On the other hand, if he were to be our best offensive player during that time, it would expedite his rise to stardom as the #1 pick.

It is just another reason why I am hoping the Suns obtain a experienced facilitator to feed Ayton in the right place at the right time.

That has to be our top priority, especially now with DBook down. As allow him to play Shooting Guard when he works his way back.

'Shooting with his left hand, huh? Maybe Paul Westphal can teach him to be ambidextrous.