Explain: Goran Dragic's Fan Status

[slinslin]

Please explain this to me. The fan status that Goran Dragic currently has rivals Steve Nash but Goran Dragic has actually achieved almost nothing noteworthy as a Phoenix Sun.

Yet on message boards you better not criticize anything about him without hordes of Suns fans trying to lynch you.

In fact it seems to be en vogue to search for faults in other players to blame for Dragic's poor play or the Suns poor play but never Dragic himself.

It's ridiculous looking back how Shawn Marion or Amare Stoudemire were criticized despite being 10x better and more influential players for the Suns for a longer time.

What is it exactly that makes Goran Dragic immune to criticism? Is it because he is so cute and adorable?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Please explain this to me. The fan status that Goran Dragic currently has rivals Steve Nash but Goran Dragic has actually achieved almost nothing noteworthy as a Phoenix Sun.

Yet on message boards you better not criticize anything about him without hordes of Suns fans trying to lynch you.

In fact it seems to be en vogue to search for faults in other players to blame for Dragic's poor play or the Suns poor play but never Dragic himself.

It's ridiculous looking back how Shawn Marion or Amare Stoudemire were criticized despite being 10x better and more influential players for the Suns for a longer time.

What is it exactly that makes Goran Dragic immune to criticism? Is it because he is so cute and adorable?

I think your premise is incorrect so it's hard to discuss the rest of this. I don't think he's revered on the Steve Nash level by any means. There is unusual support for him here but I don't think that translates across the fan base. He's popular because he seems like a nice guy, he showed he wanted to be in Phoenix and he played at a fairly high level last year.

Steve

 

[Neo]

I have been a Dragic fan since the 4th Quarter, Game 3, Round 2 of the 2010 playoffs when he had one of the most amazing performances that I have ever seen against the Spurs. I was mad when we traded him to Houston for Aaron Brooks and was glad when we signed him once again on a pretty reasonable contract.

His first year back with Phoenix he was solid, but not overly impressive. But last year was amazing. He led the team in PER, Win Share, Plus/Minus, Value Over Replacement, True Shooting Percentage, Points, Assists.

So far this year Dragic has dropped off in just about every statistical category. The only thing that is somewhat improved is FT percentage, but he is making up for that by not getting to the line as often. I have not started criticizing Dragic on the Board because I am still holding out hope that it is just a temporary decline and that Dragic will pick up where he left off last year. But in the back of my mind I fear that last year may have been an aberation.

I don't recall Marion getting tons of critisism before he left. However, Amare was rightfully critisized frequently because he played TERRRIBLE defense and was injury prone.

 

[slinslin]

You can't criticize someone for being injury-prone.

Also terrible defense is overstating it, Dragic is a terrible defender too, Nash was too.

Still Amare was 10x the player Dragic is.

Marion got insane amount of criticism, some of it was justified but still Marion was a much better player than Dragic and did not have nearly the status of Dragic who is immune to criticism.

In fact it seems that many fans are more concerned with Dragic than the team even.

Morris and Bledsoe are 2 of the most efficient crunchtime players/scorers in the league - yet you see Suns fans demanding Dragic to be the go-to guy late.

Dragic is putting up the worst assist/turnovers numbers of all 3 of our PGs, yet Bledsoe and Thomas get all the criticism for playmaking and turnovers.

Dragic is putting up the worst RPM and WAR stats among our rotation players, yet fans want to trade everyone else because Dragic is our best player?

None of that seems to make any sense from an objective standpoint.

Dragic had one really good season last year (although he played bad whenever Frye was not on the court with him). But the team was just mediocre.

Dragic has not shown that he can be an efficient 3rd wheel player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I have been a Dragic fan since the 4th Quarter, Game 3, Round 2 of the 2010 playoffs when he had one of the most amazing performances that I have ever seen against the Spurs. I was mad when we traded him to Houston for Aaron Brooks and was glad when we signed him once again on a pretty reasonable contract.

His first year back with Phoenix he was solid, but not overly impressive. But last year was amazing. He led the team in PER, Win Share, Plus/Minus, Value Over Replacement, True Shooting Percentage, Points, Assists.

So far this year Dragic has dropped off in just about every statistical category. The only thing that is somewhat improved is FT percentage, but he is making up for that by not getting to the line as often. I have not started criticizing Dragic on the Board because I am still holding out hope that it is just a temporary decline and that Dragic will pick up where he left off last year. But in the back of my mind I fear that last year may have been an aberation.

I don't recall Marion getting tons of critisism before he left. However, Amare was rightfully critisized frequently because he played TERRRIBLE defense and was injury prone.

I don't know about how he was viewed by the average fan but he was frequently vilified on this board.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't know about how he was viewed by the average fan but he was frequently vilified on this board.

Steve

Criticism of Marion (on this board, at least) had less to do with his play and a lot more to do with his attitude and an overall lack of intelligence. "Oh, I'm a MAX player, yaknowwhatImsayin'?" was just too annoying. There was also a point where Marion just changed- he went from attacking the rim to being happy to chuck bad three point shots. He went up for a dunk and someone just took him down, and he was never the same player again.

Actually, criticism of Amare was similar. Yes, he just may have been the worst defender in the league, and he was a very poor rebounder for his size/ athleticism, but his arrogance and lack of intelligence was more frustrating than anything else.

As for Dragic, Slin is full of crap (as always.) Dragic is not immune to criticism, and he is nowhere near having the "Nash status." People are simply saying they prefer Dragic to Bledsoe and IT. There is nobody who would prefer Dragic to a 30 year-old Steve Nash. I consider myself to be a HUGE Dragic fan, and I have routinely criticized him for his ball-handling skills, lack of assertiveness and leadership, as well as defense.

He is a nice guy, very humble and intelligent, and he genuinely loves the city and the organization. If it comes down to him or someone similar in skill, fans will want Dragic every time. Being humble, reasonably intelligent, nice, and genuinely loving the organization and the city counts for something.

Also, let's not forget Dragic is the only player on this roster to REALLY achieve something- All-NBA third team. We've seen what Dragic can do when he is not playing the second fiddle to Bledsoe. Bledsoe doesn't fare quite as well without Dragic. Of course Bledsoe is much younger and probably not a finished product, so he may very well end up being the better player.

EDIT:
Also, let's not forget the criticism Nash used to get. This idea that Nash was viewed as a God is just revisionist history. Nash received plenty of criticism.

 

[slinslin]

Actually, criticism of Amare was similar. his arrogance and lack of intelligence was more frustrating than anything else.


Dragic is a nice guy, very humble and intelligent

You are a joke man.

How do you know that Dragic is intelligent and Amare is stupid?

Stereotypes much?
Seems to me Amare built himself a nice business empire off the court, but he is that dumb black highschool kid from the ghetto. Dragic however is that nice, humble, intelligent white guy. Uh oh..

 

[AzStevenCal]

Criticism of Marion (on this board, at least) had less to do with his play and a lot more to do with his attitude and an overall lack of intelligence. "Oh, I'm a MAX player, yaknowwhatImsayin'?" was just too annoying. There was also a point where Marion just changed- he went from attacking the rim to being happy to chuck bad three point shots. He went up for a dunk and someone just took him down, and he was never the same player again..

It started out that way but once he reportedly refused to be involved in the Garnett trade, the hater gloves came off. That and the fact that he usually struggled against the front court players on the Lakers and the Spurs. And most of his dumb comments came about because of loaded questions from reporters (do you feel you're being disrespected type questions every day). He wasn't very bright (still isn't) and people here hammered him for anything and everything all the way down to the fact he watched cartoons.

But yes, the cheap shot by Starks changed the way he played. Especially since the league denied it was intentional even though it clearly was. And he didn't take him down, it was worse than that IMO. Starks saw Marion jump and he then turned away from the basket and took a couple of steps backwards so that he could undercut Marion who had been high-rise feasting on the Jazz up to that point. Shawn never played the same again.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

You are a joke man.

How do you know that Dragic is intelligent and Amare is stupid?

Stereotypes much?
Seems to me Amare built himself a nice business empire off the court, but he is that dumb black highschool kid from the ghetto. Dragic however is that nice, humble, intelligent white guy. Uh oh..

What is with you attacking people all the time? You simply cannot have an intelligent discussion with anyone! And you expect to be treated with respect when you name-call people ALL THE TIME?

 

[SirStefan32]

You are a joke man.

How do you know that Dragic is intelligent and Amare is stupid?

Stereotypes much?

Seems to me Amare built himself a nice business empire off the court, but he is that dumb black highschool kid from the ghetto. Dragic however is that nice, humble, intelligent white guy. Uh oh..

Huh? Listen to interviews. Some players (Nash, Dragic, Duncan, Hill, Frye, for example) are much more intelligent and humble than others (Marion, Amare, for example.)

What's this prejudice business? Sounds to me like you can't argue using facts, so you are resorting to name-calling.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You are a joke man.

How do you know that Dragic is intelligent and Amare is stupid?

Stereotypes much?
Seems to me Amare built himself a nice business empire off the court, but he is that dumb black highschool kid from the ghetto. Dragic however is that nice, humble, intelligent white guy. Uh oh..

I have no idea if Goran is bright but listening to Amare was always like listening to a little kid that didn't realize how much more the rest of the world knew then he did. Amare made some comments that came across as arrogant and/or ignorant but I think it was more from a lack of maturity and education than a lack of intelligence. And I think it's highly inappropriate to start calling someone a racist with so little to base it on.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

It started out that way but once he reportedly refused to be involved in the Garnett trade, the hater gloves came off. That and the fact that he usually struggled against the front court players on the Lakers and the Spurs. And most of his dumb comments came about because of loaded questions from reporters (do you feel you're being disrespected type questions every day). He wasn't very bright (still isn't) and people here hammered him for anything and everything all the way down to the fact he watched cartoons.

But yes, the cheap shot by Starks changed the way he played. Especially since the league denied it was intentional even though it clearly was. And he didn't take him down, it was worse than that IMO. Starks saw Marion jump and he then turned away from the basket and took a couple of steps backwards so that he could undercut Marion who had been high-rise feasting on the Jazz up to that point. Shawn never played the same again.

Steve

Yep, that's spot on. I wasn't remembering the details (exactly when the gloves came off and who undercut him.)
You have one hell of a memory, my friend!

Also, thank you for pointing out that him struggling against bigger Spurs and Lakers was a big part of the criticism he received, which probably wasn't fair to him. DA put him and Amare in a really crappy spot by making them play out of position.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yep, that's spot on. I wasn't remembering the details (exactly when the gloves came off and who undercut him.)
You have one hell of a memory, my friend!

Also, thank you for pointing out that him struggling against bigger Spurs and Lakers was a big part of the criticism he received, which probably wasn't fair to him. DA put him and Amare in a really crappy spot by making them play out of position.

Yes I do, one hell of a memory. I can't remember what I had for dinner last night but I know I was wearing Penny Loafers the day my shoe broke and I fell face first into a muddy lawn in the heavily populated square of Coronado High School on a rainy Friday in 1971. Personally, I'd kind of like to remember what I had for dinner last night and forget that mud slide.

The Starks play stands out to me because I remember arguing multiple times with Errntknight (when it happened and a few times since) who felt it wasn't clearly international. He's not usually that wrong.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

Huh? Listen to interviews. Some players (Nash, Dragic, Duncan, Hill, Frye, for example) are much more intelligent and humble than others (Marion, Amare, for example.)

What's this prejudice business? Sounds to me like you can't argue using facts, so you are resorting to name-calling.

Judging intelligence by media interview, seems solid... Not to mention Dragic does not even sound more intelligent..

 

[SirStefan32]

Yes I do, one hell of a memory. I can't remember what I had for dinner last night but I know I was wearing Penny Loafers the day my shoe broke and I fell face first into a muddy lawn in the heavily populated square of Coronado High School on a rainy Friday in 1971. Personally, I'd kind of like to remember what I had for dinner last night and forget that mud slide.

The Starks play stands out to me because I remember arguing multiple times with Errntknight (when it happened and a few times since) who felt it wasn't clearly international. He's not usually that wrong.

Steve

Did you change your user name at some point? We've both been here for a dozen years, but for some reason, I don't remember you until three or four years ago. In all fairness, I have a pretty crappy memory for a 30-something, so it's probably me not remembering.

 

[SirStefan32]

Judging intelligence by media interview, seems solid... Not to mention Dragic does not even sound more intelligent..

Look at what people are saying, not necessarily how they are saying it. Goran has an accent, but everything he says is the right thing to say, no arrogance, exaggerations, or anything like that. But either way, in a dozen years on this board, I've learned that facts don't matter to you, so it's my own damn fault for trying to have a factual conversation with you.

 

[slinslin]

Look at what people are saying, not necessarily how they are saying it. Goran has an accent, but everything he says is the right thing to say, no arrogance, exaggerations, or anything like that. But either way, in a dozen years on this board, I've learned that facts don't matter to you, so it's my own damn fault for trying to have a factual conversation with you.

Yeah because your obvservation in case of "interview intelligence" is definitely FACT.

And Markieff Morris has a BAD CONTRACT, that clearly is also one of your facts for us.

 

[Ronin]

 

[AzStevenCal]

Did you change your user name at some point? We've both been here for a dozen years, but for some reason, I don't remember you until three or four years ago. In all fairness, I have a pretty crappy memory for a 30-something, so it's probably me not remembering.

I took a break from posting right after 9-11 (many of us here were still on Rivals back then) and when everyone moved here I just lurked for the first couple of years. When I got around to posting I no longer remembered my original user name (or email address as I had changed computers) so I created a new one in 2004. By that time I was so used to lurking that I only posted maybe a hundred times a year for the next several years. About the only posters that remember me here from earlier are the few from AOL back in the mid to late 90's.

Steve

 

[Neo]

How do you know that Dragic is intelligent and Amare is stupid?

By watching them play defense. I have no idea which of them has a better grasp of math, science, or literature. But Amare Stoudemire never learned how to play pick and roll defense during his eight years playing with the Suns.

Stereotypes much?
Seems to me Amare built himself a nice business empire off the court, but he is that dumb black highschool kid from the ghetto. Dragic however is that nice, humble, intelligent white guy. Uh oh..

I don't ever remember anyone ever saying that about Amare. You can't accuse someone of saying something that they did not say and then bash them for saying it. Stoudemire did not play smart basketball with the Suns, but I have never heard anyone say it has anything to do with the color of his skin, and he was not from the ghetto. He may have grown up poor, but central Florida is all trailer parks, not urban ghetto. Usually your outlandish statements crack me up, but that goes too far.

You can't criticize someone for being injury-prone.

Sure you can. It is not fair, but neither is life nor basketball. If a team is putting a significant percentage of its salary cap towards a player, fans are within their perogative to point out that it is a big risk given the past health history. A big reason why Amare was allowed to leave was nobody knew for sure if he would still be playing in a few years due to his history.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Please explain this to me. The fan status that Goran Dragic currently has rivals Steve Nash but Goran Dragic has actually achieved almost nothing noteworthy as a Phoenix Sun.

Yet on message boards you better not criticize anything about him without hordes of Suns fans trying to lynch you.

In fact it seems to be en vogue to search for faults in other players to blame for Dragic's poor play or the Suns poor play but never Dragic himself.

It's ridiculous looking back how Shawn Marion or Amare Stoudemire were criticized despite being 10x better and more influential players for the Suns for a longer time.

What is it exactly that makes Goran Dragic immune to criticism? Is it because he is so cute and adorable?

Hammer meet nail. I could not agree more and I like Goran. However it seems against the law to criticize him.

I also feel Hornacek falls in the same category. Even though we run one of the worst offenses in the history of basketball it is not Hornacek's problem, it is the players problem. Even though we set league records last year, when Bledsoe was injured, for allowing the other team to shoot over 50% against us. He was still deemed a great defensive coach by many Suns Fans.

All the solutions to Hornacek's problems have been, we need better players.

When Amare and Nash could not play defense it was always because Mike D'Antoni could not coach defense, not that we needed better defenders.

When Mike D'Antoni was winning 58 games per year and we were a thing of beauty to watch, even with those bums Amare and Marion doing most of the damage, he was criticized unmercifully by most everyone. Nash always got most of the credit for our success, not MDA, Amare or Marion. Their success was always because of Nash. Even though Nash never made the playoffs after they left. My bet is that if MDA were coach some of the bums that do not want to share the ball on todays roster either would not play or would be out of town. My bet is that not every 3 point shot would be a good shot. My bet is that Goran would not fall asleep in the corner waiting for the ball. My bet is that Suns basketball would be fun to watch. My bet is that there would be smiles on players and fans faces.

If this team has another horrible road trip, I quite frankly hope they do. I fully expect a major trade and or a coaching change.

If you do not think so, explain how would you sell this garbage Sarver is trying to sell as basketball.

Actually the first guy that should be fired is, Babby. He somehow has kept his job, amazing.

Quite frankly all I want is watchable basketball. Hopefully it comes sooner than later. I could care less who the coach is or who the players are.

We need to change the "Culture".

 

[SirStefan32]

I took a break from posting right after 9-11 (many of us here were still on Rivals back then) and when everyone moved here I just lurked for the first couple of years. When I got around to posting I no longer remembered my original user name (or email address as I had changed computers) so I created a new one in 2004. By that time I was so used to lurking that I only posted maybe a hundred times a year for the next several years. About the only posters that remember me here from earlier are the few from AOL back in the mid to late 90's.

Steve

Ah, OK. That explains it. I didn't join the group until the message board between Rivals and this one (azprosports, if I remember correctly.)

I always wonder what happened to some of the other old-timers like Capologist, Fordroken, Yuma, Irish, etc.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ah, OK. That explains it. I didn't join the group until the message board between Rivals and this one (azprosports, if I remember correctly.)

I always wonder what happened to some of the other old-timers like Capologist, Fordroken, Yuma, Irish, etc.

George seemed to pop up every offseason but I haven't seen him for this offseason or the previous one. I haven't seen Yuma here in probably 4 years. I had forgotten that Capologist (Tony M) even posted here. I remember him better from the Rivals board, the Az Republic forum when it was a real mess and then that azprosports site (I think I have the wrong name though as I'm not talking about Bob Chebat's site that also fed into this one) that grew out of that mess. But yeah, we're missing a lot of former regulars. Just like the Suns games are missing a lot of former fans.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

So far this year Dragic has dropped off in just about every statistical category. The only thing that is somewhat improved is FT percentage, but he is making up for that by not getting to the line as often. I have not started criticizing Dragic on the Board because I am still holding out hope that it is just a temporary decline and that Dragic will pick up where he left off last year. But in the back of my mind I fear that last year may have been an aberation.

I blame too many cooks in the kitchen. Let Goran be the primary ball handler / distributor and I think all our problems go away. (Well, yeah. Of course not ALL our problems.)

 

[Covert Rain]

LOL. Does anybody else find it ironic Slinslin calling out fans for players being critic proof? Dear Lord. This is the same person who routinely defended Lopez and Beasley and made them "critic" proof Ad nauseam. Look how defensive he is about Amare still.

It would be one thing if people were saying Goran is Nash type material. I mean what are people supposed to do? I think the majority of fans here acknowledge this team is young, inexperienced and lacks any hall of famers. I thought this was general knowledge? So...why get bent out of shape because one hole (of many) doesn't have it's dedicated attack thread? This smacks of..."well you blasted my favorite player"....so...let's blast yours.

Really? This is borderline trolling and it appears just a cheap attempt at pushing buttons. Do we really need individual attack threads on a team with so many holes? Come on. This team has much bigger problems versus just Dragic. I don't see any threads praising Dragic's hall of fame play here either.

Quick someone create threads for each of the Suns players not up to par. Slinslin will be happy and finally feel all inclusive about his favorite players.

The fans on this board are pretty damn knowledgeable and I don't need every little thing or player for that matter to be called out. I can see the comments people make before, during and after the game. However, if it makes you feel better Slinslin....make a blast Goran thread and have at it.