Final thoughts on Stern

newfan101

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I finally had a chance to listen to Stern's interview with Dan Patrick. I don't post very much, but I've been a fan for over 30 years, and while my love for this game is reaching its nadir, I've come to some conclusions about the core problem with Stern and this bench rule.

In the big picture, he and the owners want to curb the violence on the floor, which is something we all can agree is a good thing. We can also agree that keeping the players on the bench is certainly a good way to keep fights from escalating. However, there are two sides of the equation: the action ... pushing, cheap shots, fighting, overly physical play, etc, on the court; and the reaction ... the escalation, especially from players on the bench and the fans. In what defies all logic and reason, the rule Stern seems hell bent focusing his energy on is, inherently, a reactionary rule. Very simply, no problem, in any form in life, is solved by focusing on the reaction. It's solved by tackling the core, or action of the problem. In this case, if he's serious about curbing violence, his hard line, black and white, no interpretation stance should be in dealing with what is initiating the violence, and that is the unsportsmanlike, overly physical, dirty play of the players ON the court. You take care of that, and you don't need to worry about the reactions of the players of the bench.

If Stern had taken that hard line approach toward the dirty, physical, and unsportsmanlike action on the court, his mug wouldn't have surfaced after game 4, it would have surfaced after game 3. Let’s say he sees Bruce Bowen's kick to the groin of Nash, a game after his questionable kick to Amare. In taking a hard-line, black and white stance, he announces that Bowen is suspended for the rest of the playoffs. It's overly harsh, it's unfair, but it's correct, and needed to protect the players on the court. Fast forward to game four. I'll bet you the title to my house that Horry doesn't cheap shot Nash. You think he wants to miss the rest of the playoffs? Of course not. And guess what, David? Now you don't have to concern yourself with the reactions of Amare or Diaw on the bench.

Now let’s look at the natural consequences of his actual ruling. I'll also bet you the title to my house that Amare and Boris don't move the next time there's an altercation. But that's the problem: their suspensions won’t do anything to thwart the next on court altercation. Whether they sit down or move 20 feet past the bench, it will still be a RESPONSE to a Horry like cheap shot on the floor. That is what you’re trying to stop, isn't it David? In fact, the odds are much greater that some scrub will cheap shot the opposing teams star in hopes of baiting the other team’s bench. By focusing on the reactions of players, and having a soft, grey area approach to the violence initiated on the court, he's done nothing to curb the problem. That's why this rule did nothing to stop the worst fight in NBA history, Detroit and Indiana. That’s why suspending a Patrick Ewing for passively standing outside the bench during a fight didn't do a thing to keep a Danny Fortson from ending Zarko's career. Etc etc ...

The NBA says they want a cleaner game. They want to stop fighting. They want to protect the player. They want better sportsmanship. Fine. Then stop focusing on the peripheral, and go to the core of the problem. Stop rewarding physical play in the playoffs. Give harsher, multi game suspensions for flagrant fouls. Ban players for a year for starting a fight on the court. Etc etc ... Start being black and white with those initiating the violence, and stop moronically thinking you can solve the problem by laying down the law on players reacting to it. Until then, everything that comes out of Sterns mouth will smell of BS.
 

az1965

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Great post! Agree 100%!

You fix things properly by going to the root of the problem, not the symptoms.

You should post often.
 

pokerface

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They're not going to give multi-game suspensions over mediocre infractions....That would kill their business. All you do is talk from a fan point of view...not from an owner point of view. They're not going to commit financial suicide just to teach lessons.

Personally I think the punishments do fit the crime for the most part. No rules are perfect...niether are the laws of this country. That doesnt mean to go overboard in an attempt to stop bad behaviors.
 

pokerface

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Also about your statement....

That's why this rule did nothing to stop the worst fight in NBA history, Detroit and Indiana.

No rule is going to stop every infraction. No law is going to stop crime. Does the death penalty stop murders from occuring? Yeah in general the more you up the penalty the less people are willing to do the crime but like I said prior the NBA is a business...they are more interested in MONEY than anything else. They arn't going to go off the deep end suspending players for a year for starting a fight etc etc...thats ludicrous.
 

AZZenny

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This is the clearest statement I've seen of this problem, which is they are ignoring the basic laws of behavior and incentives. You need both sides of the equation addressed, but the overly-aggressive foul rule has to be the cornerstone. How anyone could look at that tape of Nash getting kneed and say it wasn't deliberate is beyond reason.
 

Toner2u

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Excellent post, hopefully the NBBA will look at ways of improving the game. Another Spurs/Pistons finals will be unwatchable. Not because of the players or the teams, but because the beauty of basketball is gone. By letting the dirty play and hard fouls occur without repurcussions, the NBBA just purpetuates ugly basketball. This is not to say I don't like great defense, but great defense doesn't mean hacking and pushing. If a player is able to get position and make plays great, however allowing kicking and undercutting and kneeing is an intimidation factor and not 'defense'. Clean up the play and the game will improve.
 

ARZCardinals

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Suns lose this series and I quit watching the NBA.

Everyone in Phx said it's BS

Everyone in San Antonio cheered

That's f'd up!
 

AzKarl

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I finally had a chance to listen to Stern's interview with Dan Patrick. I don't post very much, but I've been a fan for over 30 years, and while my love for this game is reaching its nadir, I've come to some conclusions about the core problem with Stern and this bench rule.

In the big picture, he and the owners want to curb the violence on the floor, which is something we all can agree is a good thing. We can also agree that keeping the players on the bench is certainly a good way to keep fights from escalating. However, there are two sides of the equation: the action ... pushing, cheap shots, fighting, overly physical play, etc, on the court; and the reaction ... the escalation, especially from players on the bench and the fans. In what defies all logic and reason, the rule Stern seems hell bent focusing his energy on is, inherently, a reactionary rule. Very simply, no problem, in any form in life, is solved by focusing on the reaction. It's solved by tackling the core, or action of the problem. In this case, if he's serious about curbing violence, his hard line, black and white, no interpretation stance should be in dealing with what is initiating the violence, and that is the unsportsmanlike, overly physical, dirty play of the players ON the court. You take care of that, and you don't need to worry about the reactions of the players of the bench.

If Stern had taken that hard line approach toward the dirty, physical, and unsportsmanlike action on the court, his mug wouldn't have surfaced after game 4, it would have surfaced after game 3. Let’s say he sees Bruce Bowen's kick to the groin of Nash, a game after his questionable kick to Amare. In taking a hard-line, black and white stance, he announces that Bowen is suspended for the rest of the playoffs. It's overly harsh, it's unfair, but it's correct, and needed to protect the players on the court. Fast forward to game four. I'll bet you the title to my house that Horry doesn't cheap shot Nash. You think he wants to miss the rest of the playoffs? Of course not. And guess what, David? Now you don't have to concern yourself with the reactions of Amare or Diaw on the bench.

Now let’s look at the natural consequences of his actual ruling. I'll also bet you the title to my house that Amare and Boris don't move the next time there's an altercation. But that's the problem: their suspensions won’t do anything to thwart the next on court altercation. Whether they sit down or move 20 feet past the bench, it will still be a RESPONSE to a Horry like cheap shot on the floor. That is what you’re trying to stop, isn't it David? In fact, the odds are much greater that some scrub will cheap shot the opposing teams star in hopes of baiting the other team’s bench. By focusing on the reactions of players, and having a soft, grey area approach to the violence initiated on the court, he's done nothing to curb the problem. That's why this rule did nothing to stop the worst fight in NBA history, Detroit and Indiana. That’s why suspending a Patrick Ewing for passively standing outside the bench during a fight didn't do a thing to keep a Danny Fortson from ending Zarko's career. Etc etc ...

The NBA says they want a cleaner game. They want to stop fighting. They want to protect the player. They want better sportsmanship. Fine. Then stop focusing on the peripheral, and go to the core of the problem. Stop rewarding physical play in the playoffs. Give harsher, multi game suspensions for flagrant fouls. Ban players for a year for starting a fight on the court. Etc etc ... Start being black and white with those initiating the violence, and stop moronically thinking you can solve the problem by laying down the law on players reacting to it. Until then, everything that comes out of Sterns mouth will smell of BS.
One of the best posts I've ever read here. You should post more.
 

jbeecham

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Excellent Post. That should be sent to every sportswriter in the nation in hopes that it gets national media attention and something actually gets done about it. Trust me, it's easy to do and can make a difference. We made Walton's foot out of bounds national news in a few hours with a couple of quick emails last year.
 
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Brianellsworth

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You should get the commissioners mailing address from the previous post where it is listed and make sure and send it to him. I am sure he is receiving 1000's of letters but maybe just maybe he will see it. Or you can call his office and talk to his secretary and ask her for the address....I am sure he has gone through a few secretarys in the last few days with the amount of calls and bitchin' that they have received. I tried to call in after Game 5 but the message box was full!!
 

The Man In Black

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Post have been written like that by both fans and media since the rule was put in effect. It's an exemplary writing but this game isn't played with kid gloves. Screens need to be set, battle for the boards means something, and position defense needs to be played if someone wants to deter the offense. This ain't touch football that they're playing here.

Think back a bit before Nash played for the Suns. He took an elbow from Karl Malone on a clear-out for a a rebound which resulted in a broken nose. The NBA gave Malone a 1 game suspension. Remember that just because you don't see a dollar amount doesn't mean that he wasn't fined at all. At minimum, once suspended, you lose a game paycheck. Did it stop Karl from playing his normal rugged game? Not a chance.

Here is a list of all fines and suspensions since 94-95. Some of the things that happened then, still happen today and it's not because of the rules, remember, they've tweaked here and there to get things to be more free-flowing. Players play hard and when they don't have the skills that athleted have, they find another skill that they do to make themselves fit. It's the reason why guys like Najera, Evans, Harpring, and the like can still play this game. Sheer will, physicality, and mentality.

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/fines.html
 

dreamcastrocks

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Post have been written like that by both fans and media since the rule was put in effect. It's an exemplary writing but this game isn't played with kid gloves. Screens need to be set, battle for the boards means something, and position defense needs to be played if someone wants to deter the offense. This ain't touch football that they're playing here.

Think back a bit before Nash played for the Suns. He took an elbow from Karl Malone on a clear-out for a a rebound which resulted in a broken nose. The NBA gave Malone a 1 game suspension. Remember that just because you don't see a dollar amount doesn't mean that he wasn't fined at all. At minimum, once suspended, you lose a game paycheck. Did it stop Karl from playing his normal rugged game? Not a chance.

Here is a list of all fines and suspensions since 94-95. Some of the things that happened then, still happen today and it's not because of the rules, remember, they've tweaked here and there to get things to be more free-flowing. Players play hard and when they don't have the skills that athleted have, they find another skill that they do to make themselves fit. It's the reason why guys like Najera, Evans, Harpring, and the like can still play this game. Sheer will, physicality, and mentality.

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/fines.html

What exactly is your point?
 
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OP
N

newfan101

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Nice post...!

So why if you are a 30 year fan, is your username "newfan"? :)

I know ... I hate that name. I was new to the board (hence the word "new") and didn't think I'd post more than a couple of times, so I didn't put any thought into my name. Then I got hooked, and I've been stuck with it ever since. Oh well. My name is Mike, by the way.

Thanks for all of the great responses. It's nice to have a late night dissertation so warmly received. :)
 

azirish

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Obviously there are two issues we've been discussin. One is dirty play. The second is "physical defense", which looks suspiciously like fouling.

Spurs fans are in complete denial about both, but they are separate issues. The grabbing, holding, and hacking that the Spurs get away with is disgraceful.

Steve Nash has bruses all over his body, yet the number of fouls called on the Spurs doing it have been very few. In game 3, the Spurs took the Suns out of their game by the number of uncalled fouls. It's only when this crap stops working that they resort to trying to injure the Suns.
 

The Man In Black

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irish...would you agree that KThomas, and RBell both play a physical brand of defense. And as such, they grab, they hold, and hack. It happens on both sides of the fence. Can you agree?
 

azirish

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irish...would you agree that KThomas, and RBell both play a physical brand of defense. And as such, they grab, they hold, and hack. It happens on both sides of the fence. Can you agree?

Apples and oranges. Low post defense always involves grabbing and holding - Duncan more than anyone.

Raja is not really about grabbing, just about getting closer to his guy than they like. Typically he draws contact as his man pushes off to create space. He does not prevent guys from crossing the lane the way the Spurs do nor hack against guys going to the hole.
 

The Man In Black

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Raja is not really about grabbing, just about getting closer to his guy than they like.
A technique that he works on with Bowen at Raja's place in Miami.

Bell did hack Ginobili to the head in this series did he not? On a jumpshot no less. If everyone does low post grab and hold, is it a crime or more of a crime because in your perception Duncan does it more?

Thanks for the opinion.
 

dreamcastrocks

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A technique that he works on with Bowen at Raja's place in Miami.

Bell did hack Ginobili to the head in this series did he not? On a jumpshot no less. If everyone does low post grab and hold, is it a crime or more of a crime because in your perception Duncan does it more?

Thanks for the opinion.

Um, Bell hit Ginobili on a layup attempt, and Marion gave him the black eye. What hack to the head are you talking about?
 

SASpursfan

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Um, Bell hit Ginobili on a layup attempt, and Marion gave him the black eye. What hack to the head are you talking about?

I dont quite remember the game but I remember the play. Ginobili pump-faked Raja and Ginobili attempted to shoot after the contact. Raja used both hands to blatantly foul Ginobili. Should have been a technical but wasnt. Sucks for Gino.
 

elindholm

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would you agree that KThomas, and RBell both play a physical brand of defense. And as such, they grab, they hold, and hack. It happens on both sides of the fence. Can you agree?

Yes, of course. But except for Bell's clothesline instance, they don't try to injure anyone.
 

Mike Olbinski

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I know ... I hate that name. I was new to the board (hence the word "new") and didn't think I'd post more than a couple of times, so I didn't put any thought into my name. Then I got hooked, and I've been stuck with it ever since. Oh well. My name is Mike, by the way.

Thanks for all of the great responses. It's nice to have a late night dissertation so warmly received. :)


Just let me know what you want to change it to, I'll go and do it. PM me if you want, or post it here and i'll try not to miss it.
 

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