Finally somebody gets it: Very good article on Matty Boy

[D-Dogg]

AF is my new hero.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

AF is my new hero.

I've been fighting the good fight here at work so my editing and punctuation hasn't been all it could - still I appreciate the sentiment.

And to continue the love fest - Congrats to your boy's performance in China. I think everyone now knows who the best player in "The Show" is without a doubt.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Only one of those stats are preseason; the rest are regular season, and I never said you were using stats. I'm protesting YOUR assertion that the stats mentioned in the article "all suck". They don't. Matt's stats aren't as bad as everyone says they are.

Admit you were wrong to say all the stats in the article suck, and then I can let it go!

Not........... all.......... of.............the...............stats............suck.........



....as much as Leinart himself does...

 

[Linderbee]

Not........... all.......... of.............the...............stats............suck.........

VICTORY!!! I win!!!

 

[Mitch]

Once Matt gets a good command of his mechanics, he will be good.

It's all about consistency.

 

[Pariah]

Once Matt gets a good command of his mechanics, he will be good.

It's all about consistency.

Who are you and what have you done with Mitch?!

 

[CardsFan88]

I don't believe in the keeping the young QB on the bench will make him worse than he would have been if he played. Conversely it has to be Timm Rosenbach final cards game bad for a rookie to be ruined by throwing him in too early.

If this was 2002 or 2003 cardinals, I would say start Leinart as playing will obviously decrease the learning curve, and we aren't playing for anything else.

However it's 2008 Cardinals. We're playing for more than then.

This is a team with far more talent. Talent that might not be here next year or in 2009. Maybe we keep the guys wanting extensions, maybe we keep the guy that wants to be traded, and maybe we continue drafting above average. Maybe we have even more, or maybe this is as talented of a roster we get for a few more years if some players like dansby and boldin leave. But that's a lot of maybes, and goes against the Cardinals trend. We've had small windows where our roster peaks to mediocrity and then we lose people and/or injuries and age accounts for the dropoff in talent. So when you see such a talented Cardinal team, why waste it? Why believe it's set in stone that you will have a better roster in subsequent years? Of course it's possible, but I say win now while you actually have a reasonable shot to make some noise.

Since you never know how things are going to unfold years ahead in the NFL, I say you have to play the guy that gives you the best chance to win. I feel at this point, Warner is that guy, and Leinart is a couple of steps back. Not a half step, or a step, but two full steps.

Not just from being young, but from being young and coming back from a collar bone break which is probably not back to 100 percent. But it does seem to me that his throws have less zip and overall he has less range where he can pass effectively than he did last year (which in turn when healthy is still far less range than Warner imo, other than getting a deep pass, Leinart imo's game is restricted to 15 yards and in). With all that's been directed at Leinart, and with a heated positional battle, I'd be pretty shocked that he'd ever want to come out and say he isn't fully healed, or isn't physically as well as he could be or has been.

Just like I think the Packers FO is shortsighted by dumping Favre, unless they are confident AR is a top 5 QB, we'd be shortsighted to put a QB in there that based on right now talent might win a 2-3 less games than Warner can do over the course of the season based off of how well Warner plays with what we have around him, how well everything seems to click. Coupled with a potentially more balanced effective run game, Warner can get to even that next level...now...this year.

I also believe that there is a 90 percent chance that Warner will miss 2-4 starts this year with injuries. I hope not, but I can easily see that occurring.

Again in 2009 maybe Leinart starts, maybe not. But even playing 0 game snaps and just watching, practicing, more time to heal the collarbone and work out potential range of motion issues and mechanics, and getting more familiar with the offense would make a 2009 Leinart > 2008 Leinart.

Plus if you subscribe to the Warner will get hurt during the season belief, Leinart should get the opportunity to start roughly 2-4 games which would progress his learning curve. Not as much as starting 16 games, but perhaps those 2-4 games he learns quite a bit more than a usual 2-4 game starting stretch because he isn't the starter, might benefit from coordinators not being able to gameplan around him, and just overall not feeling he has to be 'the man' this year.

But picking Leinart who isn't imo the best QB, most likely will only lead to less wins this year, for the unmeasurable possibility that these games this year will make or break him as a QB and that if he doesn't start now he'll never be good, whereas if he starts this year he can be HOF. If a player is good or bad, they are good or bad. Their potential may slightly go up or down based on how they are treated the first few years, but those alterations won't be enough to take Leinart if he truly is a future great QB, into a future backup merely by playing warner over him this year. If like the article says he quits, then if not now, he would quit sometime for some other reason.

We do still have years capwise to figure out if he'll be the QBOF, he will learn on the bench, he can heal more, and he will most likely start a few games this year. Plus we can try to 'win now' by starting Warner. I'd rather be 4-2 if Warner got hurt for a couple of games and turn to Leinart, rather than 2-4 and handing the reigns over to Warner to try to go 7-3 down the stretch trying to win the division or secure the final playoff spot. Based on him coming off an injury, a couple more months might benefit Leinart in the long term as well.

I don't think Dilfer is a good comparison. He won a SB just like McMahon, but it wasn't because of him, it was in spite of him. The only because of him, is that he didn't screw it up. If based off of statistics other than the superbowl win, if Leinart's career numbers are comparable to Dilfer's, then Leinart would be considered a bust by us.

Leinart will get another shot, or two, or three. Probably this year considering Warner will probably get hurt.

But will we have a roster this full of talent, and have Warner capable playing like he can, next year or the year after? There's always a good possiblity we won't, and if we do, has the rest of the NFC caught up? Right now we're playing in the NFL's version of the Eastern Conference by playing in the NFC (or that was the case up until this year).

But then again if we hadn't sucked for so long, maybe I'd say we can afford to go for the future over the now. But years like this imo are too precious to mess around with. Start Warner, Leinart will get his opportunities, and we set ourselves up to best win now, without tangibly affecting the future of the team aside from a lower draft pick.

If we go that route it's important for the coaching staff and the fans not to treat him as a bust but still a QB learning the ropes. If Leinart turns out not to be the man we will not have had to potentially derail a potentially promising season for something that will be found out in time whether he starts this year or not. That's how I break it down.

 

[cardsfanmd]

I think people are reading way tooo far into this whole thing and drawing up conclusions, when in reality there is not one in sight nor does anything need to be in concrete.

This team is GOOD!!! We are TALENTED. There is no reason IMO why we should not be able to make the playoffs with this roster, and as the Giants proved last year, once your in the postseason it's anyone's trophy to win.

For that reason ALONE I say start Kurt. This team has been rebuilding my entire life and I am tired of it dammmit!!! I want to see my Cardinals put their ears back and race for the finish line, with no possible excuses or reasons to slow down. Whiz knows better than me what to do IMO, so if he starts Matt, then I trust it is for the best.

Matt is signed for three more years at a decent costs. Its also not like Leinart's career is over if he doesn't start come week one. I am tired of hearing people say that it will kill his confidence and he will never rebound. I doubt he would have made it this far in football if he was that thin-skinned, but if he is than I dont want him anyhow.

Why not give Kurt this one chance to see if he is still as good as he thinks he is??

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think people are reading way tooo far into this whole thing and drawing up conclusions, when in reality there is not one in sight nor does anything need to be in concrete.

This team is GOOD!!! We are TALENTED. There is no reason IMO why we should not be able to make the playoffs with this roster, and as the Giants proved last year, once your in the postseason it's anyone's trophy to win.

For that reason ALONE I say start Kurt. This team has been rebuilding my entire life and I am tired of it dammmit!!! I want to see my Cardinals put their ears back and race for the finish line, with no possible excuses or reasons to slow down. Whiz knows better than me what to do IMO, so if he starts Matt, then I trust it is for the best.

Matt is signed for three more years at a decent costs. Its also not like Leinart's career is over if he doesn't start come week one. I am tired of hearing people say that it will kill his confidence and he will never rebound. I doubt he would have made it this far in football if he was that thin-skinned, but if he is than I dont want him anyhow.

Why not give Kurt this one chance to see if he is still as good as he thinks he is??

I guess I'm in the minority here but my point is while Kurt may put up better numbers - he doesn't necessairly give us the best chance to WIN.

I know one was on the road and one was at home but they did play a like opponent last year. Anyone want to get out the stat lines for both QB's?

I think Kurt's season was a mirage last year and he feasted and beat up on teams when it didn't count and who aren't very good.

Now could Kurt have improved since last year and be better in this offene this year? Sure - I couldn't say one thing for Matt and not the same for Kurt.

But I don't think its as much of a no brainer that we have a better chance to win with Kurt then Matt as everyone would have you think.

And I think we can take as much from Matts game last week as we can from Ryan Leafs brilliant preseason a few years back.

As in not much.

 

[Mitch]

I guess I'm in the minority here but my point is while Kurt may put up better numbers - he doesn't necessairly give us the best chance to WIN.

I know one was on the road and one was at home but they did play a like opponent last year. Anyone want to get out the stat lines for both QB's?

I think Kurt's season was a mirage last year and he feasted and beat up on teams when it didn't count and who aren't very good.

Now could Kurt have improved since last year and be better in this offene this year? Sure - I couldn't say one thing for Matt and not the same for Kurt.

But I don't think its as much of a no brainer that we have a better chance to win with Kurt then Matt as everyone would have you think.

And I think we can take as much from Matts game last week as we can from Ryan Leafs brilliant preseason a few years back.

As in not much.

You make a very interesting argument.

But, right now, in terms of getting the ball to Fitz and Boldin, Warner has it all over Leinart. While we all expect an improved running game, we still cannot ignore the fact that we have two Pro Bowl WRs to throw to...and having Warner under center would do more to back the safeties out of the box than Leinart, because Warner pulls the trigger faster and is more accurate...his timing there is the key.

Leinart has to work on improving his feet and the quickness and snap of his release. When he's shown consistency there, then I think you may be right.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

You make a very interesting argument.

But, right now, in terms of getting the ball to Fitz and Boldin, Warner has it all over Leinart. While we all expect an improved running game, we still cannot ignore the fact that we have two Pro Bowl WRs to throw to...and having Warner under center would do more to back the safeties out of the box than Leinart, because Warner pulls the trigger faster and is more accurate...his timing there is the key.

Leinart has to work on improving his feet and the quickness and snap of his release. When he's shown consistency there, then I think you may be right.

I get that Mitch but I think you too suffer from "fantasy football-itis" that everyone else seems to. Sure its important to get the ball to our two best players. But with the type of offense we run I think you win by spreading the ball around anyway. Like Tom Brady in NE and McNabb in Philly. Which is why I think the Cardinals have been hesitant to commit such money to both Fitz and Boldin and Q will be gone nest year.

I am basing all this on the principle of Wisenhunts offense. If this was Mike Martz leading the O then hell yeah Warner and his arm give us the best chance to win.

But when you play field positon, running game, and ball control like we do- TURNOVERS are instant death. And despite Matts game last week he has taken better care of the ball and not forced it like Warner always does.

Listen I could be wrong. But I don't think Warner's the QB to take us to the promise land you all think he is.

 

[jefftheshark]

Last year our Defense was so bad, mainly due to injuries, that if we didn't score at least 21 - 24 points a game, we were toast. No lead was safe and the running game was off the table way too soon to be effective (look at James' stats as the year progressed). We needed a gunslinger to keep us in the game.

Fast forward to this year and we have a different set of circumstances. We have what looks like a good, to very good, running game and the Defense seems vastly improved. With this situation in place, I like Leinart as a starter because of what he did in the first preseason game against NO. Were his stats going to make a fantasy football addict salivate? No, but he did do exactly what he needed to do, and that was to move the ball in a controlled manner down the field.

The reason I am reticent to see Warner in the game is that he is a wild card in the truest sense of the term. He can be great, and he can be a turnover machine. Who knows with any certainty which Warner will show up come game time?

However, if Warner starts, hey, I'm cool with that. But in my opinion, I think Leinart gives us the safest shot at winning.

JTS

 

[82CardsGrad]

Last year our Defense was so bad, mainly due to injuries, that if we didn't score at least 21 - 24 points a game, we were toast. No lead was safe and the running game was off the table way too soon to be effective (look at James' stats as the year progressed). We needed a gunslinger to keep us in the game.

Fast forward to this year and we have a different set of circumstances. We have what looks like a good, to very good, running game and the Defense seems vastly improved. With this situation in place, I like Leinart as a starter because of what he did in the first preseason game against NO. Were his stats going to make a fantasy football addict salivate? No, but he did do exactly what he needed to do, and that was to move the ball in a controlled manner down the field.

The reason I am reticent to see Warner in the game is that he is a wild card in the truest sense of the term. He can be great, and he can be a turnover machine. Who knows with any certainty which Warner will show up come game time?

However, if Warner starts, hey, I'm cool with that. But in my opinion, I think Leinart gives us the safest shot at winning.

JTS

Maybe it's just me, but why do I feel like we haven't seen a solid sign about what our running game could be this year, since all of the positive signs have come from Hightower while mainly running behind our 2nd team o-line???
I'd love to see our first team o-line demonstrate an ability to consistently run-block for more than just a few plays... I just don't believe we've seen that from them at this point...

 

[CardsFan88]

I feel when we play with Leinart we are playing with a smaller effective playbook, not in terms of memory, but ability. Time and time again the balls thrown by Leinart 15-25 yards deep have multiple flaws in it.

His timing is off, so even if he can get it there, it doesn't get there when it needs to be. If he does read the defense in time, and throws it, it takes longer for the ball to get there. He can be a little ducky with his throws as well. Maybe it's bad playcalling forcing Leinart into doing things he can't do and instead of changing the playcalls around Leinarts strengths, Leinart is expected to make those throws like Warner does.

At this point, I see Leinart as a dink and dunk QB who gets away with a long throw if one of our stud WR's outplays the defender. On quite a few plays, a broken up or int pass just got there too late, as the WR was open, but the window closed by the time the pass got there.

We shouldn't force Leinart into doing things he is incapable of doing. But at this point, if we were to do just that, we'd have an offense that isn't using our weapons, and is easier to defend, and a liability imo to the running game.

If we force him to try to make those throws, we get games like the Raider game. I am not confident in Leinart at this point to be in this offense and make the same throws kurt does.

Last year they said they ran different packages and plays for each QB, but it did seem like those plays where Leinart did bad on, were plays designed to be thrown by, and may only be thrown by a QB that has the kind of timing and arm that Warner has.

This year I don't want to see our offense scaled back, as that imo puts our running game, and subsequently our defense into a harder position to succeed. Plus lots of 3 and outs will tend to show any potential deficiency in our ST's, whether it be return coverage or punter/kicker troubles.

I feel it is more like that with Leinart our running game will be harder to get on track because of our dink and dunk with Leinart, and our passing game is harder to get on track because we can't run the ball well enough to make the defense favor run when we decide to pass.

So we get put in that overall position easier than with Warner, who I believe won't be put into that situation as easily. So I believe we can achieve a type of synergy on offense with Warner, where 1+1 = 3 whereas with Leinart we have a greater chance of getting stuck with the chicken and egg question (can't run to set up the pass, and hard to pass to set up the run). So in the end the offense is less effective because we're trying to get things started rather than let the plays naturally come and complement each other by playing off what the previous play set up. I feel Leinart puts us in the unfavorable position of not being able to do that, and Warner does not.

I'm also not trying to say Warner will be a savior. He can be very fumble prone, can get into a habit of throwing picks, and since he is injury prone won't probably start more than 12-14 games this season. I also fully remember the first 8 or so games on his last year with the Rams, and remember how burned I was with him on one of my fantasy teams lol. But still besides the whole future vs. now issue, the who now issue with me feels that Warner gives us a better shot to run a better and at times more balanced and sophisticated offense, with no plays in the playbook scrapped because of limited physical ability. I think with Leinart it would be best to scrap a large portion of plays, and scrapping those plays may very well negatively effect our running game and overall effectiveness. If his arm can get stronger, when he can make his reads a quarter or half a second faster, and when his footwork improves to the point where you don't think about it anymore, I think he has the potential to extend the field more than he does now, and that might be enough to run a good offense. But as of now, I only see dink and dunk done effectively, and I don't feel that's a good fit for what we have here.

Of course I could be wrong, but at this point the guy that fits the best with the way our OC plans to call plays, which seemed to be set up so you have a good balance naturally rather than get stuck in the chicken and egg scenario, has the timing, can use our weapons, Warner gives us the best chance to win now while not ending Leinart's future in subsequent years. Warner can make all the throws that Leinart at this point can't and may never be able to, and it'll be hard to spread the field when other than the occasional bomb attempt, most of our successful pass offense will be dink and dunk, which for us generally means we get decent yardage and completion percent numbers, but few td scoring drives.

Maybe I'm overestimating the impact, but it's like having a 4 cylinder mustang (Leinart), when the car (cards offense) is made to have an 8 cylinder (Warner). I'll take the V8 capable of driving over any hill and can get past most other cars in a straightaway. Final point, is the following, if we aren't going to take advantage of WR's backing off the LOS by 7-10 yards and throwing it out there to them to try to keep them d honest, does that negatively affect Warner or Leinart more? I say Leinart, as if he's primarily a dink and dunk QB, not taking advantage of that takes away an opportunity for a QB that has fewer opportunities due to a smaller space to run the offense through. A guy who is dink and dunk should be a master at hitting the WR that the cb is playing off of. Dink and Dunk QB's need to take advantage of those things, Warner, while should of course do that as well, doesn't limit his opportunities as much. It just seems to me that if you a smaller area than other QB's to operate effectively in, you need to be more effective than the other guy within that area. Leinart not doing that, yet, is more of a problem for him than Warner. At least that's my take on that angle of this situation.

 

[Stout]

Passer ratings in preseason are worthless Linda... As I said, I'm not even using #'s to support my concerns about Leinart or my support for Warner...
I'm simply going by what I see on the field...

Time will tell and as I've always said, I really hope Matt proves me wrong... Thus far, he's far from doing so...

So we can ignore Matt's passer rating in the Oakland game, yes?

 

[82CardsGrad]

So we can ignore Matt's passer rating in the Oakland game, yes?

Absolutely... I thought he wasn't ready before the Oakland game... I still think he's not ready, and will continue to believe so until he proves otherwise...

 

[conraddobler]

Give me a break.

That article is trash.

It assumes I want a non Cardinal QB with a couple years at best to be the future of the franchise and that I've given up on Matt.

BS, I just want Warner to start this year because now he's better.

Don't insult my intelligence or tell me Matt is better now, you'd be wrong if you said that.

 

[artp]

A lot has been made about how Warner performed over the last half of 2008. Don't forget that Warner was horrible in the 1 1/2 yrs prior to that. The Cardinals will get decent QB play from either QB. Not spectacular. The next "Warner fumbles the snap" like he did against the Rams in 2006" and we'll be ready to lynch him.....again.

 

[BigRedArk]

Good stuff AF. Thanks for providing the link. That is a good article. Thought provoking. It is too soon to throw Matt on the scrap heap. Give him some time to learn the NFL game.

 

[Mitch]

Good stuff AF. Thanks for providing the link. That is a good article. Thought provoking. It is too soon to throw Matt on the scrap heap. Give him some time to learn the NFL game.

I totally agree. Leinart's development to date has been hampered by coaching changes and injuries.

Just because he may not be quite there yet...doesn't mean he never will be.

 

[Russ Smith]

I guess I'm in the minority here but my point is while Kurt may put up better numbers - he doesn't necessairly give us the best chance to WIN.

I know one was on the road and one was at home but they did play a like opponent last year. Anyone want to get out the stat lines for both QB's?

I think Kurt's season was a mirage last year and he feasted and beat up on teams when it didn't count and who aren't very good.

Now could Kurt have improved since last year and be better in this offene this year? Sure - I couldn't say one thing for Matt and not the same for Kurt.

But I don't think its as much of a no brainer that we have a better chance to win with Kurt then Matt as everyone would have you think.

And I think we can take as much from Matts game last week as we can from Ryan Leafs brilliant preseason a few years back.

As in not much.

That's been my opinion in this too. The Raider game concerned me because Matt was forcing throws which is something he hasn't done in the NFL before that game. It concerned me that maybe Matt felt like I have to push the ball downfield to compete with Kurt, I don't want a QB who's trying to play out of his strengths that's the thing that Matt has always seemed to grasp, know your limitations.

I think we'll be fine but the Raider game concerned me because of Matt's decisions in the game, and having heard Mariucci suggest earlier that day that matt's shoulder isn't healed that concerned me about him physically.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Give me a break.

That article is trash.

It assumes I want a non Cardinal QB with a couple years at best to be the future of the franchise and that I've given up on Matt.

BS, I just want Warner to start this year because now he's better.

Don't insult my intelligence or tell me Matt is better now, you'd be wrong if you said that.

I understand why you think that and wouldn't say you don't have an argument for thinking that. But Maybe you have'nt read my posts in this thread but I disagree with you entirely. If you want to refute what I wrote please do.

Speaking in absolutes on this board seems to get people in trouble (and in life in general ) and I don't think its as cut and dry as you may think.

I'm not trying to start a fight or insult your intelligence. I just disagree with your premise. But I guess that what the regular season will bear out becasue I expect both guys to get PT and we will see who the better QB for WINNING games will be .

 

[Russ Smith]

Give me a break.

That article is trash.

It assumes I want a non Cardinal QB with a couple years at best to be the future of the franchise and that I've given up on Matt.

BS, I just want Warner to start this year because now he's better.

Don't insult my intelligence or tell me Matt is better now, you'd be wrong if you said that.

I'm with AF I think people have to consider what is best for winning games.

Kurt reminds of one of those NBA players who puts up 20 PPG but gives up 25PPG on defense. Teams always get infatuated with those guys but after a few years they eventually realize in the long run you can't win with a guy like that starting.

Kurt in his prime was fantastic but he hasn't been in his prime since he got hurt and the hand problems and the concussion issues. He'll put points on the board, for both teams.

Until the Raider game, Matt was much better at protecting the ball, he can occasionally light someone up(400 yards in a game as a rookie) but the main thing is he doesn't take bad risks, he protects the ball, and he doesn't bury you in games. If he plays like Oakland consistently I'll be screaming to start Warner but right now that's just one game that I hope is an anomaly.

 

[jefftheshark]

I don't know if anyone else posted this thought, but what if the coaches wanted to use this game to test Leinart's shoulder strength under actual gametime conditions, and instructed him to heave the ball down the field without worrying about the consequences?

The Raiders CB said that he wasn't trying to look anyone off and made no attempt to disguise who the play was going to. What if he was just told; we want to look at your footwork and arm strength, and if you throw a pick, well then we get to see how our defense works when they suddenly have to come back into the game in a turnover situation?

As I recall, this was a preseason game. Perhaps the coaches had a different agenda from just winning the game.

JM$.02

JTS

 

[cardsloco]

Because teams know that Warner can throw it deep and kill them with the long pass, the run game will be more effective. That threat along with the O line being in the system another year, should give us a more respectable run game. It really is going to help knowing that when Edge needs to rest the play won't drop off when Hightower comes in. I think if Matt is in there other teams are going to stack the line, and shut down the run. Which will force Leinart to beat them with the pass, something this preseason he hasn't shown he can do. I think the run game, which we have lacked, benefits from Warner starting.