Firefly

[Covert Rain]

The Stargate franchise operates on a much smaller budget. They write their entire season with the budget in mind, so there's always three or four episodes intentionally written minus special effects (or perhaps shots that can be re-used).

Ironically, Firefly was never a big effects show, and the shots it had were almost comically sparse -- but effective for the show. The most expensive shots were location scenes with lots of horses, traditional gun battles, etc. When they were on the ship in space, those were the cheap scenes!

SG1 is also shot in Vancouver. Firefly ... in vastly more expensive southern California. X-Files NEVER would have been successful if it had started ops in LA. It only moved there after it had become a phenomenon, and the move to LA (in addition to silly ego battles with Carter, Duchovny, and Anderson) is Reason No. 1 the show went south.

Bottom line, I think, is Wheadon's heart really isn't into it. It's a battle he's already conceded and moved on (to Dollhouse). The only thing keeping this alive are the fans who discovered the series on DVDs and feel a bit betrayed they never had a shot to support it when it was on TV.

Yep when spending over 2 Million per episode the first thing people think is FX. The few episodes were we got to see several ships or city scapes, probalby blew through their entire FX budget.

I like so many others discovered the show too late. I had heard about it but didn't see anything on it until I read something. Then I was pissed that I had missed the start of it. Next thing I know it was gone. I was like WTF???

 

[jf-08]

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/...edons-firefly-resurrected-returning-syfy.html

Joss Whedon's 'Firefly' resurrected, returning to Science Channel (not SyFy as mentioned in article).

It is going to be re-run of the old episodes. I got excited, thinking it would be a new chapter.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/...edons-firefly-resurrected-returning-syfy.html

Joss Whedon's 'Firefly' resurrected, returning to Science Channel (not SyFy as mentioned in article).

It is going to be re-run of the old episodes. I got excited, thinking it would be a new chapter.

So it's not going to be new episodes?

 

[Stout]

So it's not going to be new episodes?

No. Fillion said he wished he had the 30 or 300 million it would take to buy the rights so that he could keep making them, though. Strangely enough, that's sparked a movement to raise the money for him to do exactly that. I doubt it works out, however, even though I bet the actors would be willing to do it.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

No.

Why must they always flush the good shows!

 

[Chaplin]

No. Fillion said he wished he had the 30 or 300 million it would take to buy the rights so that he could keep making them, though. Strangely enough, that's sparked a movement to raise the money for him to do exactly that. I doubt it works out, however, even though I bet the actors would be willing to do it.

There were much bigger movements for Angel and Carnivale, and look what happened to those shows.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

There were much bigger movements for Angel and Carnivale, and look what happened to those shows.

I am just watching Carnivale now. Starting Season 2 shortly. Really is interesting.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There were much bigger movements for Angel and Carnivale, and look what happened to those shows.

Angel and Carnivale each had a real chance to build an audience, something that Firefly never had. They didn't even let them show the episodes in the order Whedon intended. Firefly ended up with tremendous fan support despite the horrible treatment.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

Angel and Carnivale each had a real chance to build an audience, something that Firefly never had. They didn't even let them show the episodes in the order Whedon intended. Firefly ended up with tremendous fan support despite the horrible treatment.

Steve

Not enough fan support, even now. Angel had a lot more and they couldn't save that show. Firefly has become sort of a pop culture phenomenon now, but in the scheme of things, those of us that love it are a very small minority. The box office on Serenity proves that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Not enough fan support, even now. Angel had a lot more and they couldn't save that show. Firefly has become sort of a pop culture phenomenon now, but in the scheme of things, those of us that love it are a very small minority. The box office on Serenity proves that.

These things almost always fail even if they succeed short term. Roswell had a very loyal fan base and a great PR idea when the fan groups sent in Tabasco bottles in hopes of keeping the show alive but even that only worked for the short run. Firefly was doomed by the network from the outset, it's amazing that any kind of fan support at all existed after airing just 12 episodes.

I hate Fox and I hate SyFy. I know that if a show truly catches my interest on either of those networks they'll find a way to ensure it doesn't succeed. Move it to this night or put it up against this show, whatever it takes I can count on them screwing me over. I'm convinced they're on a mission to make my life suck.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Not enough fan support, even now. Angel had a lot more and they couldn't save that show. Firefly has become sort of a pop culture phenomenon now, but in the scheme of things, those of us that love it are a very small minority. The box office on Serenity proves that.

That is not entirely true. Maybe there were not enough fans to save the show on FOX. However, when you look at other genre shows that aired on UPN, WB or Sci Fi it's a different story. There absolutely would have been enough fan support on those networks and Firefly (although only 1 season sample) had better ratings then some of those network hits.

Firefly 4.7 million viewers
Angel 4.3 million viewers
Vampire Diaries 3.6 million viewers
Smallville 4.47 million viewers
Buffy the Vampire Slayer 4.5 million viewers
Stargate SG1 (Showtime) 1.5 million viewers (Sci Fi) 2 million viewers


I have no doubt that DVR numbers would have also had a positive impact on the shows outlook as well if it was alive today.

Also, I am not sure what the movie box office proves either. Everybody knew that movie was about closure to the series. Whedon did his best to open it to a wider audience but timing is everything. Nobody outside of the fans knew who any of those actors were at the time. Also, Universal & Fox have made positive statements about Firefly/Serenity's performance on DVD & Blu Ray.

If Star Trek had come out with a movie shortly after the canceled series it would have bombed. It took years of ground swell and becoming a pop culture phenomenon before a new Trek project even had a chance again.

The show could survive and has enough fan support for a non major network. If the show was continued tomorrow on Syfy for instance it could survive.

 

[Chaplin]

That is not entirely true. Maybe there were not enough fans to save the show on FOX. However, when you look at other genre shows that aired on UPN, WB or Sci Fi it's a different story. There absolutely would have been enough fan support on those networks and Firefly (although only 1 season sample) had better ratings then some of those network hits.

Firefly 4.7 million viewers
Angel 4.3 million viewers
Vampire Diaries 3.6 million viewers
Smallville 4.47 million viewers
Buffy the Vampire Slayer 4.5 million viewers
Stargate SG1 (Showtime) 1.5 million viewers (Sci Fi) 2 million viewers


I have no doubt that DVR numbers would have also had a positive impact on the shows outlook as well if it was alive today.

Also, I am not sure what the movie box office proves either. Everybody knew that movie was about closure to the series. Whedon did his best to open it to a wider audience but timing is everything. Nobody outside of the fans knew who any of those actors were at the time. Also, Universal & Fox have made positive statements about Firefly/Serenity's performance on DVD & Blu Ray.

If Star Trek had come out with a movie shortly after the canceled series it would have bombed. It took years of ground swell and becoming a pop culture phenomenon before a new Trek project even had a chance again.

The show could survive and has enough fan support for a non major network. If the show was continued tomorrow on Syfy for instance it could survive.

Those are tv viewers, not after-show fan support--basically groups of people that would literally picket Warner Bros. to push for an Angel rebirth and for Carnivale, the fans would actually have yearly conventions to support the show. As far as I'm aware, Firefly's supporters are simply message board posters and pop culture references. And don't discount the 1 season exception. For Fox and in this climate, you need to have really good first season ratings to keep going. Look how good a show Fringe is and it's been extremely lucky to stay on the air for as long as it has. IMO, the only reason Fringe is still on is because the network learned its lesson from Firefly. Simply put, you can't look at ratings as a representation of "fan support". Especially not in today's tv climate.

Fan support after a show is gone is different than tv ratings.

 

[Pariah]

So it's not going to be new episodes?

Sounds to me like they might try to tie the science and the fiction together with this (re)iteration of the series. Could be a neat idea--especially if they did it Pop-Up Video style (is that still on, or am I showing my age with that reference?).

 

[Covert Rain]

Those are tv viewers, not after-show fan support--basically groups of people that would literally picket Warner Bros. to push for an Angel rebirth and for Carnivale, the fans would actually have yearly conventions to support the show. As far as I'm aware, Firefly's supporters are simply message board posters and pop culture references. And don't discount the 1 season exception. For Fox and in this climate, you need to have really good first season ratings to keep going. Look how good a show Fringe is and it's been extremely lucky to stay on the air for as long as it has. IMO, the only reason Fringe is still on is because the network learned its lesson from Firefly. Simply put, you can't look at ratings as a representation of "fan support". Especially not in today's tv climate.

Fan support after a show is gone is different than tv ratings.

Fans are still going strong IMO. They just had a charity screening event last month and they showed up in mass at comiccon. Those campaigns are more about who they are directed at (which Exec), who is organizing them and to which studio. I bet the Firefly campaign would have been more effective had the show been on one of the other networks I previously mentioned.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Fans are still going strong IMO. They just had a charity screening event last month and they showed up in mass at comiccon. Those campaigns are more about who they are directed at (which Exec), who is organizing them and to which studio. I bet the Firefly campaign would have been more effective had the show been on one of the other networks I previously mentioned.

And it would have been even better if they'd been allowed to show more than 12 episodes. It's hard to build an audience when the show is hidden away, given no support by the network and yanked before the season ends.

Steve

 

[Gaddabout]

As far as I'm aware, Firefly's supporters are simply message board posters and pop culture references.

I covered a Firefly convention in Sacramento in 2004. About 3,000 "Brown Coats" showed up. They had to turn people away because the place was only meant for about 1,800 people. It was such a strong showing, Fox called them all back and gave them a free advance showing of Serenity a few months later. Those people were rabid crazy. If you were there and asked them what a Brown Coat was, it might've started a brawl. They had a bunch of Star Trek bands (it's exactly what it sounds like) there.

Sidenote: Is it just me or do sci-fi conventions have an larger-than-usual LGBT contingent? A large portion of the Brown Coats considered themselves Lesbian Brown Coats, and they were very adamant I include that in my story. *big shrug*

 

[Chaplin]

I covered a Firefly convention in Sacramento in 2004. About 3,000 "Brown Coats" showed up. They had to turn people away because the place was only meant for about 1,800 people. It was such a strong showing, Fox called them all back and gave them a free advance showing of Serenity a few months later. Those people were rabid crazy. If you were there and asked them what a Brown Coat was, it might've started a brawl. They had a bunch of Star Trek bands (it's exactly what it sounds like) there.

Sidenote: Is it just me or do sci-fi conventions have an larger-than-usual LGBT contingent? A large portion of the Brown Coats considered themselves Lesbian Brown Coats, and they were very adamant I include that in my story. *big shrug*

2004, lol... That's a good one, what were the 2010 numbers?

You are misinterpreting my meaning as if I don't like the show. I do, I'm one of the fans that would love it back. But I've been in TV for a long time now, and shows like Firefly just don't have any legs in the current climate. It's no secret that the #1 network is CBS, a network that is definitely not a Firefly-demographic. Those shows just don't last anymore.

 

[Covert Rain]

2004, lol... That's a good one, what were the 2010 numbers?

You are misinterpreting my meaning as if I don't like the show. I do, I'm one of the fans that would love it back. But I've been in TV for a long time now, and shows like Firefly just don't have any legs in the current climate. It's no secret that the #1 network is CBS, a network that is definitely not a Firefly-demographic. Those shows just don't last anymore.

Chap....the first Star Trek convention only drew 300 fans. There were more Browncoats at Comiccon by far last year. Firefly fans continue to show up at charity screenings have also donated over half million dollars attending charity events since the show's cancellation. Firefly has a bigger fan base than Star Trek did immediately following the cancellation. Not that I am saying Firefly will ever reach that cult status but its clear the fans are still showing up in numbers for events.

This was more about Fox. If the shows currently on the WB and UPN can draw the ratings they are now and make it....there is no merit to your comment about the show not surviving on TV. I have no idea why you brought up CBS. The likes of Smallville, Supernatural and Vampire Diaries would not last on that network either.

Firefly could easily make it on the other smaller networks. When comparing ratings for those "hit shows" on those other networks...Firefly's ratings definitely compare.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap....the first Star Trek convention only drew 300 fans. There were more Browncoats at Comiccon by far last year. Firefly fans continue to show up at charity screenings have also donated over half million dollars attending charity events since the show's cancellation. Firefly has a bigger fan base than Star Trek did immediately following the cancellation. Not that I am saying Firefly will ever reach that cult status but its clear the fans are still showing up in numbers for events.

This was more about Fox. If the shows currently on the WB and UPN can draw the ratings they are now and make it....there is no merit to your comment about the show not surviving on TV. I have no idea why you brought up CBS. The likes of Smallville, Supernatural and Vampire Diaries would not last on that network either.

Firefly could easily make it on the other smaller networks. When comparing ratings for those "hit shows" on those other networks...Firefly's ratings definitely compare.

I'm not sure what you're actually arguing about. Are you saying there's enough traction to garner a return to the show? I think you're absolutely wrong there. Again, not in this climate.

However, there is a movement to get a direct-to-DVD 2nd season.

In an interview February 17, 2011, with Entertainment Weekly, Nathan Fillion joked that: "If I got $300 million from the California Lottery, the first thing I would do is buy the rights to Firefly, make it on my own, and distribute it on the Internet."[83] This quickly gave rise to a fanbased initiative to promote a direct-to-DVD season 2 of Firefly funded by pre-sales of the DVD. The idea rests on 1 million fans each buying a $40 pre-production DVD option. Currently this initiative is gaining interest among Firefly fans, as well Firefly writers Jane Espenson and Jose Molina.

I actually don't see this as a viable option yet, simply because Nathan Fillion is so wrapped up in Castle and Adam Baldwin is on Chuck. (I doubt Morena Baccharin will have a problem, seeing that V is probably on the chopping block) Also, Gina Torres is a regular on a new USA show and Alan Tudyk is transitioning to features. What I do see is another small possibility for a film, but to be honest, the fans really screwed the pooch when they didn't make Serenity a hit. That all but killed the series.

We can talk all we want about the blame as to why the series failed back in 2002, and we agree that Fox messed it up and they are to blame. But for it to return to network television? What with all the actors doing new projects and Joss Whedon moving on to huge tentpole movies (Avengers and Goner), as well as his television cred is probably pretty low after how badly Dollhouse performed, it will be an extremely hard sell. As much as we'd love fan support to get a 2nd season, much like it did for Jericho, it simply won't happen. (Of course, Jericho had the advantage of having a network with large pockets to do the financing and as you know, WB hasn't had a great track record lately with their genre shows)

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm not sure what you're actually arguing about. Are you saying there's enough traction to garner a return to the show? I think you're absolutely wrong there. Again, not in this climate.

However, there is a movement to get a direct-to-DVD 2nd season.

Not exactly because the chances of the studio giving up the rights is next to none and Fox would not take on another genre show despite what they have done with Fringe. I don't agree Fox has learned their lesson as much as they have nothing to fill that spot should Fringe be canceled. Fox really has not changed either. Fox is talking about canceling Fringe now. They are saying Warner Brothers would have to cut fees to buy it an additional season. So, is there enough fan support to get FOX to change their minds? No.

However, I think the question is do I think the show could survive in today's climate on a smaller network? If the rights were owned by someone else would there be enough traction to bring the show back?

The answer is absolutely.

I actually don't see this as a viable option yet, simply because Nathan Fillion is so wrapped up in Castle and Adam Baldwin is on Chuck. (I doubt Morena Baccharin will have a problem, seeing that V is probably on the chopping block) Also, Gina Torres is a regular on a new USA show and Alan Tudyk is transitioning to features. What I do see is another small possibility for a film, but to be honest, the fans really screwed the pooch when they didn't make Serenity a hit. That all but killed the series.

I don't disagree at all from a timing perspective. I think actors, writers and even Joss himself are too busy. My statement was just in general that the show could survive.

We can talk all we want about the blame as to why the series failed back in 2002, and we agree that Fox messed it up and they are to blame. But for it to return to network television? What with all the actors doing new projects and Joss Whedon moving on to huge tentpole movies (Avengers and Goner), as well as his television cred is probably pretty low after how badly Dollhouse performed, it will be an extremely hard sell. As much as we'd love fan support to get a 2nd season, much like it did for Jericho, it simply won't happen. (Of course, Jericho had the advantage of having a network with large pockets to do the financing and as you know, WB hasn't had a great track record lately with their genre shows)

The timing thing aside, I think there will always be a niche for genre shows. The current lineup on the smaller networks keep proving that. Every time they say that the genre is dried up or dead along comes another show. People thought Supernatural was done prematurely. People thought Smallville was done about 5 times.

My point is that if you want to argue what the "reality is" (actor issues, rights issues and timing) I think we both agree. However, if the issue is fan support or ratings and it was on a smaller network..... the show would have no problem making it if you use current genre shows fan base and ratings as a gauge..

 

[Chaplin]

My point is that if you want to argue what the "reality is" (actor issues, rights issues and timing) I think we both agree. However, if the issue is fan support or ratings and it was on a smaller network..... the show would have no problem making it if you use current genre shows fan base and ratings as a gauge..

To be honest, there's only one "smaller" network, and that's the CW. Then you have the cable networks, and none of them except SyFy would even touch Firefly--and everything SyFy touches (with the exception of Sanctuary) turns to mush. One of the most awful networks for original programming. The CW doesn't get good ratings at all--and it's not because of their show quality--in fact, they have 2, maybe 3 of the best shows on television right now--they don't get ratings simply because they are The CW, and for some reason they have a reputation that tells people to not watch. And besides, Firefly is NOT in the CW's demographic at all.

 

[Gaddabout]

Oh no, I still agree with you, Chap. I talk to NBC folks enough to know it's more profitable to do a stupid game show and pull a 4 than to take a shot with an hour-long drama and hope for an 8. More likely a decent new drama pulls a 5 or 6 and you have to ride that out and hope it takes off. The difference between a 4 and an 8 for ad buys is incremental, but the difference between the cost of a game show and a sci-fi drama is exponential.

SyFy is happy to operate on the narrowest of margins because they need winners of any kind they can get; SyFy is happy to break even, to put it blunt. They just want to justify their right to be on air. NBC has stock market demands and can only invest their time in profit margins that make stock holders happy. It's really that simple.

Original broadcast drama is just about dead. Save for cop procedurals, I think the format is toast because no one but ABC seems to like taking those risks and ABC ain't knocking down doors with their dramas.

 

[Stout]

Then you have the cable networks, and none of them except SyFy would even touch Firefly--and everything SyFy touches (with the exception of Sanctuary) turns to mush. One of the most awful networks for original programming.

Really? Haven, Eureka and Warehouse 13 disagree with you.

 

[Covert Rain]

To be honest, there's only one "smaller" network, and that's the CW. Then you have the cable networks, and none of them except SyFy would even touch Firefly--and everything SyFy touches (with the exception of Sanctuary) turns to mush. One of the most awful networks for original programming. The CW doesn't get good ratings at all--and it's not because of their show quality--in fact, they have 2, maybe 3 of the best shows on television right now--they don't get ratings simply because they are The CW, and for some reason they have a reputation that tells people to not watch. And besides, Firefly is NOT in the CW's demographic at all.

Really? Haven, Eureka and Warehouse 13 disagree with you.

Yep, agree with Stout. Not tracking you there Chap. There are plenty of examples of genre programing on right now on either Syfy or CW. I know you think the same type of people that watch those shows on the CW wouldn't watch Firefly but I disagree. The very people that I know that watch Smallville or Supernatural for instance also happen to be Firefly fans. People I don't think care what channel it's on when it comes to genre shows either. When Buffy TVS moved from the WB to UPN people said it would never survive because of UPN's reputation. It did just fine. If the show is good people will follow.

 

[Chaplin]

Yep, agree with Stout. Not tracking you there Chap. There are plenty of examples of genre programing on right now on either Syfy or CW. I know you think the same type of people that watch those shows on the CW wouldn't watch Firefly but I disagree. The very people that I know that watch Smallville or Supernatural for instance also happen to be Firefly fans. People I don't think care what channel it's on when it comes to genre shows either. When Buffy TVS moved from the WB to UPN people said it would never survive because of UPN's reputation. It did just fine. If the show is good people will follow.

The CW's demographic are women -- which is going to be further strengthened when Smallville goes off the air. Remember also, The CW's "guy-centric" genre shows (which is pretty much Smallville, Supernatural and to a lesser extent Nikita) get pretty poor ratings, while historically, their "female-centric" shows are their biggest hits (Vampire Diaries, Gossip Girl, One Tree Hill, Top Model). There are always exceptions of course, like the 5 or 10 people you know that watch the CW shows and Firefly, but that (and others like them) doesn't represent even 10 percent of The CW's audience. It sucks, but it's true, believe me--I worked for The CW for 4 years.

It's interesting that you bring up UPN and Buffy. While on the WB, it was a terrific show (and was also a female-centric show). Also one of it's highest rated--which for The WB isn't saying much. A high rated show on the CW or The WB is a poorly rated show on Fox or ABC. When it switched over to UPN, the quality dipped BIG TIME. Those last 2 seasons were the worst of the series. The final season at UPN showed the show's worst ratings in its run, and no surprise there since UPN wasn't a good network at all. And what had really happened by that time wasn't up to UPN. The studio that produced the show, Warner Bros., felt the show had reached it's peak and did nothing more to help it.

Really, and I think we all agree on this, Fox killed Firefly almost single-handedly. Because the ratings weren't up to snuff on such an ensemble genre piece, Warner Bros. wasn't going to insist on another network to pick it up. I do wonder that if Serenity had done better in the theater if that would have resurrected the series. Probably not, since a few of the major characters actually died in the film. I'm almost certain that a good showing at the box office would have merited more films, but since that didn't happen, the series died.

Oh and as far as SyFy, Haven is a brand-new show and Warehouse 13 isn't that good at all. Eureka is ok, but nothing groundbreaking. Battlestar and Sanctuary are the only two shows worth anything. But they also have Being Human, Caprica and all their terrible reality shows. Not to mention some of the worst tv movies you'll ever see. A clever title doesn't make a good movie or mini-series.