For the last time

[Red Fury]

MJ also stated this morning that Calvin Pace was on the bubble and was in danger of being cut. He rehashed the drafting of Pace and said that the coaching staff wanted to take Suggs but that RG and the Cardinal management wanted to trade down because they were afraid that Suggs would be a hold out. He also mentioned that a Cardinal scout had Suggs rated as a 3rd or 4th round pick at best. (what scout was that and is this idiot still with the cards)

Skorp, you keep saying that this isn't true and you have inside info about who was responsible for this draft fiasco but you refuse to let us in.

Without divulging your source tell us specifically who was responsible for trading down and taking Pace.

I still maintain that it was RG and that he should be fired. Trading down and making those two selections were two of the all time "bonehead" picks. Someone should pay for the ineptitude.

 

[Garthshort]

Pace

Just remember that when we traded down we thought we were going to get McDougle. Unfortunately, the Eagles traded up and got him instead.

 

[clif]

he should not be fired for that. the team was trying to get as many impact players as possible in a position of need. They wanted to get 2 for 1. they felt they could get a good d line man in mcdougle and still get someone else. It did not work out so they looked bad.

Now I still dont agree with the move as it was not the best philosophy. The cards will not be doing that anymore with DG at the helm. Rod reiterated that the other day in his comments.

 

[Red Fury]

I remember, but whose fault is that? If you put all of your eggs in one basket you had better know that your guy is going to be there. The Cardinals had a chance to get an impact player and didn't have to gamble on anything. Then to top it off they panicked and took a guy that would have been available in the 3rd round. Now that guy is in danger of being cut.

Lets see Suggs or Leftwich or Johnson a third WR, what would you rather have 2 years later?

 

[Red Fury]

he should not be fired for that. the team was trying to get as many impact players as possible in a position of need. They wanted to get 2 for 1. they felt they could get a good d line man in mcdougle and still get someone else.

Are Pace and Johnson impact players? They didn't have to gamble that McDougle would still be there. Why were they totally shocked that Philly took Mcdougle? Someone didn't do their homework. As I said before, heads should have rolled after they botched that draft.

 

[Sam Wise]

Also we got screwed in that trade and gave up allot more than we got.

 

[vince56]

It was not Rod Graves. Don the thinking cap for a minute. If the Cards really want to move forward, would the person(s) who was responsible for the Suggs/Leftwich trade down disaster still be with the team?

Check the recent history. Since becoming GM of the Cards, Graves has gotten all the draft picks signed during the first week or so of training camp, he's changed how the Cardinals do contracts (incentives, escalators, etc.), and lured a BIG TIME head coach and real NFL staff here.

Not bad a year and a half.

My educated guess is the one who botched the 2003 draft was the same one who ran vanilla schemes, didn't prepare players, never changed audibles in 5 years, and used a playbook/strategy that couldn't win a game on Madden.

Who could that be? hmmm...

Have you noticed the Cardinals decisions miraculously getting better since January? Yeah, me too. Look at this years draft. 4 starters, right out of the box.

 

[clif]

he should not be fired for that. the team was trying to get as many impact players as possible in a position of need. They wanted to get 2 for 1. they felt they could get a good d line man in mcdougle and still get someone else.

Are Pace and Johnson impact players? They didn't have to gamble that McDougle would still be there. Why were they totally shocked that Philly took Mcdougle? Someone didn't do their homework. As I said before, heads should have rolled after they botched that draft.

i dont think pace and johnson are impact players ( even though I think BJ had an average year) but that is not what THEY thought when they drafted them. You can't simply fire your GM within I think 2 years or so of him getting the job based on one move. IF RG was the one that made the move, I am sure he learned from it...again he went on to basically admit that..it was mentioned in another thread.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I still maintain that it was RG and that he should be fired. Trading down and making those two selections were two of the all time "bonehead" picks. Someone should pay for the ineptitude.

And some of us still maintain that that was a great decion and for every 10 times you do it, it will work out 8 times.

Jesus, you make it sound like every top 10 pick is a superstar hall of famer. Wake up. Id be willing to be 80% of them are drastic failures compared to their expectations and $.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Lets see Suggs or Leftwich or Johnson a third WR, what would you rather have 2 years later?

And if Suggs and Leftwich were out of the league then what? hindsight is 20/20. How about drafting Wadsworth or Jones. They were some of you "top 10 gods" Both of them were a CANT MISS!

 

[Russ Smith]

he should not be fired for that. the team was trying to get as many impact players as possible in a position of need. They wanted to get 2 for 1. they felt they could get a good d line man in mcdougle and still get someone else.

Are Pace and Johnson impact players? They didn't have to gamble that McDougle would still be there. Why were they totally shocked that Philly took Mcdougle? Someone didn't do their homework. As I said before, heads should have rolled after they botched that draft.

Because we made our trade before Philly made theirs. I suspect someone didn't think Baltimore was going to take Suggs because reports were he was slipping and would fall completely out of the top 10. The Cards looked at the board and decided that they could get their DE at 17/18, and it may even be that Suggs falls to that slot.

That's why I've always questioned the report that ESPN ran saying we wanted McDougle and made the trade with that in mind, do they really mean that if BOTH Suggs and McDougle had been there at 17, we'd have picked McDougle over Suggs?

Remember both Houston and Dallas were supposedly very high on Suggs and going to take him, both worked him out, and decided NOT to take him, so there were some signs pointing to him slipping that may have convinced us the movedown was feasible.

I don't agree you fire Graves(if it was his pick) for one mistake though, he's done a lot of other things extremely well. AS good as Suggs was last year, he wasn't going to completely change our team last year to where you can say not picking him was grounds to fire Graves.

And I'm still amazed if we cut Pace, this time last year Peter King was picking him DROY.

 

[Skkorpion]

MJ also stated this morning that Calvin Pace was on the bubble and was in danger of being cut. He rehashed the drafting of Pace and said that the coaching staff wanted to take Suggs but that RG and the Cardinal management wanted to trade down because they were afraid that Suggs would be a hold out. He also mentioned that a Cardinal scout had Suggs rated as a 3rd or 4th round pick at best. (what scout was that and is this idiot still with the cards)

Skorp, you keep saying that this isn't true and you have inside info about who was responsible for this draft fiasco but you refuse to let us in.

Without divulging your source tell us specifically who was responsible for trading down and taking Pace.

I still maintain that it was RG and that he should be fired. Trading down and making those two selections were two of the all time "bonehead" picks. Someone should pay for the ineptitude.

I have no idea who chose Bryant Johnson and Calvin Pace. Might have been Rod Graves or Dave McGinnis.

What I wrote and I am CERTAIN of this is that Rod Graves did not choose to trade down. He wanted to stay put and use the pick. And I do not know who he wanted to choose. ROD GRAVES took the heat for the trade but he didn't do it.

That's all you're ever going to get.

 

[Red Fury]

What I wrote and I am CERTAIN of this is that Rod Graves did not choose to trade down. He wanted to stay put and use the pick. And I do not know who he wanted to choose. ROD GRAVES took the heat for the trade but he didn't do it.

That's all you're ever going to get.

Why can't you tell us who was responsible for the pick, it would give you more credibility if you told us who was responsible. Especially when people in the media contradict what you are saying.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Why can't you tell us who was responsible for the pick, it would give you more credibility if you told us who was responsible. Especially when people in the media contradict what you are saying.

Get over yourself!

Skkrop's been very consistant on this and I respect him for it. Besides, your arguement is weak when the "media" is simply trolling for ratings.

 

[Skkorpion]

Why can't you tell us who was responsible for the pick, it would give you more credibility if you told us who was responsible. Especially when people in the media contradict what you are saying.

Feel free to believe anybody you wish. I'm done with this.

 

[JeffGollin]

Great thread. A few random shots:

- We don't really know what went down on draft day 2 years ago. Until we do, it would be unfair to blame Rod or anyone else for trading down.

- I wanted Suggs back then (based on what I saw) and still think he would have been a better pick than Pace and Johnson.

- While "getting everyone signed" is something you've gotta do, if I had the choice between a Director of Player Personnel who can bring in great talent and one who gets everyone signed on time, I'll opt for the "talent-guy" over the "contract-guy."

- Assuming we did expect to trade down and still get MacDougle, this in itself was poor draft strategy. Smart money only trades down to a point where you are guaranteed still getting one of the guys you really want to get.

- I thought throwing in the extra draft pick was a little much.

- Often ovelooked in the debate is that, because we were unable to land a talented pass rusher and/or receiver earlier in free agency, we allowed our draft strategy to be manipulated by need and I feel we panicked on Draft Day.

- Equating 4 of our draft picks who may be starters with Coach Green's being a great talent-evaluator may or may not be valid since Coach Green can make himself look like a genius simply because he calls the shot as to who starts or doesn't start.

- But having said that, my gut tells me that Denny, in fact, does have the knack when it comes to finding and developing talent.

- We'll see.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

In 2003 Graves drafted:

Bryant Johnson - starter as second year player
Anquan Boldin - ROY and starter as rookie
Gerald Hayes - future of MLB position in AZ
Kenny King - our best DLineman as a rookie and starter in '04
Reggie Wells - starting LG as a second year player

So in this draft Graves screwed up with Pace but in '05, but without injuries we would have had five starters from this draft on our starting lineup.

2004:
Larry Fitzgerald - anointed starter from get go
Karlos Dansby - starter
Darnell Dockett - starter
Alex Stepanovich - starter

Nine starters in two drafts all of whom if they remain injury-free have a bright future. Take your nonsensical ramblings elsewhere about Graves drafting horribly because outside of Calvin Pace, he hasn't. If you want to take shots at Rod, you should have plenty of ammo with the Emmitt signing and the multiple unnecessary contract extensions.

 

[Red Fury]

Besides, your arguement is weak when the "media" is simply trolling for ratings.

How is more than one person in the media placing the responsibility of the draft day trade and picks on RG "trolling for ratings"?

Maybe Graves has done some good things administratively but he shouldn't have ever been in a position of judging talent.

Some of DG's cuts emphasize this point, and to even contemplate releasing a fromer first round pick after only one year says all that needs to be said about RG's abilities on draft day.

 

[WizardOfAz]

How is more than one person in the media placing the responsibility of the draft day trade and picks on RG "trolling for ratings"?

The only media you've ever quoted is a talk-show host on the third rated (of three) station in the valley.

 

[Red Fury]

In 2003 Graves drafted:

Bryant Johnson - starter as second year player
Anquan Boldin - ROY and starter as rookie
Gerald Hayes - future of MLB position in AZ
Kenny King - our best DLineman as a rookie and starter in '04
Reggie Wells - starting LG as a second year player

So in this draft Graves screwed up with Pace but in '05, but without injuries we would have had five starters from this draft on our starting lineup.

2004:
Larry Fitzgerald - anointed starter from get go
Karlos Dansby - starter
Darnell Dockett - starter
Alex Stepanovich - starter

Nine starters in two drafts all of whom if they remain injury-free have a bright future. Take your nonsensical ramblings elsewhere about Graves drafting horribly because outside of Calvin Pace, he hasn't. If you want to take shots at Rod, you should have plenty of ammo with the Emmitt signing and the multiple unnecessary contract extensions.

RG wasn't responsible for drafting Q, as a matter of fact RG was against drafting Q and had to be convinced by the coachig staff.

This years draft of Fitz, etc was DG not RG's.

I agree with you on the Emmitt signing.

 

[clif]

as far as resigning players, i though RG did exactly what many fans had been calling for for years. he resigned young talent to build a nucleus... only now is that being "debated". at the time most fans would probably have agreed that it was the right move to secure players before they bolted and starred with other teams... now that may not seem possible now since people will point to players not making huge contributions and unfortunate injuries like shipps, but at the time these were good moves.

 

[Russ Smith]

How is more than one person in the media placing the responsibility of the draft day trade and picks on RG "trolling for ratings"?

Maybe Graves has done some good things administratively but he shouldn't have ever been in a position of judging talent.

Some of DG's cuts emphasize this point, and to even contemplate releasing a fromer first round pick after only one year says all that needs to be said about RG's abilities on draft day.

So then you think DG has no nose for talent either? Afterall he once cut a former first round pick, the SAME year he drafted him, and a guy that a LOT of NFL teams had pulled off their boards because of character issues.

Played the same position as Pace too.

You just can't isolate it like that, as has been debated to death, if we stay at 6 and take Suggs, there's no guarantee we take Boldin in round 2, if the talk is right both Johnson and Pace(and I don't agree by the way) would have been there in round 2, so we PROBABLY would have taken BJ over Boldin.

Would have been great to gets Suggs AND Quan, but I'd prefer Quan over Suggs so far.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

RG wasn't responsible for drafting Q, as a matter of fact RG was against drafting Q and had to be convinced by the coachig staff.

This years draft of Fitz, etc was DG not RG's.

I agree with you on the Emmitt signing.

You're right. I forgot you were in the draft room when all this happened.

 

[40yearfan]

RG wasn't responsible for drafting Q, as a matter of fact RG was against drafting Q and had to be convinced by the coachig staff.

This years draft of Fitz, etc was DG not RG's.

I agree with you on the Emmitt signing.

Since you obviously think that RG was running this draft as it was his decision to trade down, why would you think he would draft Q if he was against it. Either he ran this draft or didn't. Make up your mind.

 

[Red Fury]

The only media you've ever quoted is a talk-show host on the third rated (of three) station in the valley.

It's been common knowledge on all three radio stations, 2 newspapers, and several tv stations. In fact I think if a poll was taken most people would say that either RG or BB was responsible for trading down. And since Rod was the man that the Cards said was making the decisions he has to take the responsibility.

To put the blame on Mac for trading down was ridiculous. I know that he didn't want to draft Leftwich because he had to win the next year to save his job but he wanted Suggs. He was highly pissed when RG traded down and made the two infamous picks.