For those of you that say lose out for a better draft pick ...

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't want them to go 4-12 instead of 3-13. I want them to go 7-9...and if we do I guarantee you that the team will be selling more shirts, tickets, etc. and have a much happier, larger fan base.

agreed. i'll be honest, if we win out, i'll be happy. i think that's a heroin-induced pipe dream.

 

[Shane]

the first one is the only one that mentions tanking as an option.

the second one just says that there are those of us that prefer to lose. it DOES NOT say anything about tanking.

congrats, you found one post in all the threads and have lumped us all into that single comment. bravo.

No I havent lumped you into anything. You said "no one" I found one. Its as simple as that.

No matter how you guys try and sugar coat it though. You guys are implying, hinting, putting out there, whatever you want to call it that losing is somehow better for the team going forward.

You mask it with comments like:

"I'm not rooting for them to lose. I'm just not happy if they win"

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This was certainly a quote advocating try to lose.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2365366&postcount=1

sweet! 2 posts among 100s!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No I havent lumped you into anything. You said "no one" I found one. Its as simple as that.

No matter how you guys try and sugar coat it though. You guys are implying, hinting, putting out there, whatever you want to call it that losing is somehow better for the team going forward.

You mask it with comments like:

"I'm not rooting for them to lose. I'm just not happy if they win"

no, no, i'm not implying, hinting, or putting out there anything of the sort. i WANTED them to lose. i just didn't want them tanking. if you can't see the difference, i don't know what to tell you.

at this point they have no shot at the 1st pick, so now i don't really care if they win or lose. this was a wasted season. i just want to see young guys getting better and old useless guys getting cut.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

no, no, i'm not implying, hinting, or putting out there anything of the sort. i WANTED them to lose. i just didn't want them tanking. if you can't see the difference, i don't know what to tell you.

at this point they have no shot at the 1st pick, so now i don't really care if they win or lose. this was a wasted season. i just want to see young guys getting better and old useless guys getting cut.

Exactly. It would be different if we had a legit shot at Luck, but now that there is no chance, I'd like to see us win as much as possible while developing some of the younger players.

 

[CaptTurbo]

No I havent lumped you into anything. You said "no one" I found one. Its as simple as that.

No matter how you guys try and sugar coat it though. You guys are implying, hinting, putting out there, whatever you want to call it that losing is somehow better for the team going forward.

You mask it with comments like:

"I'm not rooting for them to lose. I'm just not happy if they win"

Well if you call a roll of the eyes and a grunt of disatisfaction when we were scoring "rooting against" I guess I was.

You think winning out is somehow better for the team going forward and Id just like ot point to the years where we won out during awful seasons and it certainly didnt help any the following year. It was old news.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Ouchie I just had to put like 7 posters on ignore and guess what? When you re-read threads now there is more meaningful discussion and banter. If you want the list LMK lol

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Ouchie I just had to put like 7 posters on ignore and guess what? When you re-read threads now there is more meaningful discussion and banter. If you want the list LMK lol

LOL. And they all say the same thing. Over and over again.



Ouchie I am on that list, BTW. (if I am not on the list already, double LOL)

Just think of the fountain of knowledge you would lose. LOL ...... Man I couldn't even type that out without laughing.


This is phenominal:
No need to respond I cant see your posts anyway:

desertdawg
Heucrazy
RugbyMuffin
Shane H

Please let him keep that as his signature. Heck, that is actually a good idea.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

no, no, i'm not implying, hinting, or putting out there anything of the sort. i WANTED them to lose. i just didn't want them tanking. if you can't see the difference, i don't know what to tell you.

at this point they have no shot at the 1st pick, so now i don't really care if they win or lose. this was a wasted season. i just want to see young guys getting better and old useless guys getting cut.

I think the point (that is trying to be made) is that the "perfect scenario" is the Cardinals go out. Play as hard as they can, lose because......well, because they are a bad team, and as chance would have it, they would end up 3-13.

Not the way I would look at it, but what do I know.

Regardless of the final record, there are players that MUST be cut, and coaches that MUST be let go. I am 100% about getting rid of bad coaches, and bad players.

If a late season surge "saves" jobs, at this point ? I don't know what to say about that. There should be coaches, and players who the front office, and Whiz have already cut in thier mind, and are just waiting for the end of the season.

You gotta remember we beat the flippin' Broncos. They are "tanking it" as a team.

It will be very very hard for the Cardinals to win the next three games. Carolina always plays us well, the Cowboys are a much better team, and the Niners have our number.

As for draft status ? The Cardinals can screw that up regardless of what pick they get. Ask Terrell Suggs.

 

[CardLogic]

If Cards drafted Eli, Not only would the team NOT have Fitz, they wouldn't have gotte Warner either. IMO, I thank the stars for Josh McCown and Nate Pool, for they put into the motion the framework for the team's only Superbowl appearance.

Excellent post! It's easy to look an events in isolation. (As in, if the Cardinals would have lost to Minnesota they could have gotten Manning or Rivers.) However, it's impossible to know, before the fact, all of the ensuing ramifications of that single event. Therefore the only logical course of action is that which provides the most certain benefit(s).

Winning provides real, immediate dividends. Playing for draft position is a crapshoot, at best; there is no guarantee of future payoff.

chickenheads's post (quoted below) illustrates this:

It's fun to talk about on a message board, but landing the number one pick takes a lot of help from other teams and is unpredictable enough to not even warrant thinking about as a strategy unless you have double digit losses and only one or two wins, IMO. Even if the Cards had lost yesterday, the Benglas and Panthers would still be sitting below them, and the Bills and Lions would still be tied with them. Even if the Cards lost yesterday and to the Panthers next week, the Panthers would still have the inside track. The Bengals play San Diego and at Baltimore in the last two weeks.

That's just too many teams you need help from. Regardless of what pick we end up with, there are existing players on this team who need improvement now. No sense in sacrificing real progress for an illusory goal of ineptitude. I'm cheering for the other bottom-feeders ever week, too. But I think the team itself should focus on the pick they ultimately earn.

 

[CardLogic]

There's nothing wrong with being exceedingly happy when the Cards beat Denver, Dallas, or a divisional rival. I haven't been to a Cardinals home game since 1988: I can't even imagine how much season ticket holders have had to take from the fans of Denver, Dallas, and San Francisco over the years.

Most regulars at Cardinals games; especially those that braved the SDS days; have perfected methods of not taking any crap from anyone!

 

[Duckjake]

Ouchie I just had to put like 7 posters on ignore and guess what? When you re-read threads now there is more meaningful discussion and banter. If you want the list LMK lol

I can see why with your Socialist ideas. Lose out and force the NFL to give us a top player that we got by not working. There's a certain symmetry to that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ouchie I just had to put like 7 posters on ignore and guess what? When you re-read threads now there is more meaningful discussion and banter. If you want the list LMK lol

lol. i can't bring myself to use the ignore button. many of those i'd ignore i also find the most entertaining. i've only ignored one person in the history of my time on the board, and now i cannot even remember who that was . . .

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Most regulars at Cardinals games; especially those that braved the SDS days; have perfected methods of not taking any crap from anyone!

honestly, after a few years, i didn't even see 'em anymore.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'm all for getting a better draft pick but there were far too many scenarios that would have had to happen for the Cards to get the #1 pick. Then there's the chance that Luck stays in school. I would hate to have the #1 pick and have to choose between Bowers, Peterson, and Green. The Cards would have had to trade into the slot if they wanted the #1 pick so they can still do it if Luck comes out. It will just cost a little bit more but if he's worth it then the extra picks are no big deal. The problem is relying on Rod Graves to make moves like that.

 

[Heucrazy]

If Luck doesn't come out the Cards will be glad they won down the stretch. If he does then trade even more to get Luck if need be. And if that can't happen then take Quinn or Bowers or Peterson, etc. The Cards are going to get a good player as long as they don't go all Levi Brown on us again.

 

[Duckjake]

I wonder how meaningless those two wins to end the 2007 season were?

Instead of yet another 6-10 season the Cards finished 8-8 for their first non-losing season since 1998. We all know what happened the next two years.

Besides if the Cards win out they finish 7-9. 7-9,8-8,9-7,10-6. I'll bet there aren't too many NFL coaches who have that record over 4 years.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2366073&postcount=49

Here's another whole thread implying that we should lose said or not.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/why-are-these-wins-important-161312.html

That's again putting words into my mouth. I didn't say that I wanted us to tank there. You asked what a coach could say to his team if he wanted to and I responded. :dcr:

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I can see why with your Socialist ideas. Lose out and force the NFL to give us a top player that we got by not working. There's a certain symmetry to that.

Interesting.... other leagues do the same thing and call it parity.

I'm all for getting a better draft pick but there were far too many scenarios that would have had to happen for the Cards to get the #1 pick.

Quite a few happened last week with Buffalo and Detroit winning.

Then there's the chance that Luck stays in school. I would hate to have the #1 pick and have to choose between Bowers, Peterson, and Green. The Cards would have had to trade into the slot if they wanted the #1 pick so they can still do it if Luck comes out. It will just cost a little bit more but if he's worth it then the extra picks are no big deal. The problem is relying on Rod Graves to make moves like that.

Small chance. He won't stay in school. I'd choose Bowers and not look back if Luck somehow didn't declare for the draft. It would cost quite a bit to move up. It costs the Giants an additional 1st round and 3rd round picks to move up 3 spots. It's probably more than that now.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I wonder how meaningless those two wins to end the 2007 season were?

Instead of yet another 6-10 season the Cards finished 8-8 for their first non-losing season since 1998. We all know what happened the next two years.

Besides if the Cards win out they finish 7-9. 7-9,8-8,9-7,10-6. I'll bet there aren't too many NFL coaches who have that record over 4 years.

I think you are missing the point. The difference in talent when you draft in the 8-15 range is typically much greater than the talent from the #1 position.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

No I havent lumped you into anything. You said "no one" I found one. Its as simple as that.

No matter how you guys try and sugar coat it though. You guys are implying, hinting, putting out there, whatever you want to call it that losing is somehow better for the team going forward.

You mask it with comments like:

"I'm not rooting for them to lose. I'm just not happy if they win"

Not this one.

 

[Cardiac]

Good debate and rationale for whatever side you find yourself on.

Chris Sanders hit the nail on the head, at least in my case. Before NFL ticket and the internet all I could get was the scores scrolling at the bottom of whatever game I was watching. It was frustrating to see the Cards losing but not the same impact as watching a game that they were losing. In those days I would start to want losses for better draft picks because: I wasn't sitting through the misery of a losing effort and the draft was the only hope we had.

Now I can't stand to watch them lose and I say forget the draft until the season is over. I was in a very good mood this Sunday and I will fret over our draft position less and enjoy the win(s) more.

Ouchie has made some excellent points and if (when) we lose another game I will think about draft position as a consolation prize to help ease the pain of another loss. I fully understand why some fans want the Cards to lose out to enhance our draft position. These are your long term thinkers and the evidence of how important it is to have a Franchise QB and those QB's are found more in rd 1 and % wise more as the 1st pick in the draft.

Ouchie got me thinking about this and my initial thought was, hey what about Brees and Brady and Warner and Favre and Montana; none of them were even taken in the 1st rd let alone pick #1. So I decided to do some research to prove Ouchie wrong and find out my perception was the incorrect one.

Some basic numbers:

Number 1 overall picks at QB that have played in a SB is 11, 8 were the winners. These QB's have accounted for 15 wins, that's about 30% of the SB's by my math.

QB's drafted in rd 1 (excluding the #1 overall picks) that played in a SB is 20 accounting for another 9 SB wins.

So every QB drafted in Rd1 to play in a SB is 26 totalling 24 wins and 22 losses. 44 SB's with 2 QB's per game = 88. 46 of those starts were QB's drafted in Rd1 which is 52%.

Rd 2: 3 QB's with 3 wins and 3 losses.

Rd 3: 6 QB's with 4 wins and 6 losses.

Rd 4: 4 QB's with 1 win and 3 losses

Rd 5: None, Cards break the curse with John Skeleton.

Rd 6: 5 QB's with 4 wins & 3 losses. Lottery odds winner Tom Brady skews this # with 4 SB appearances.

Rd 7: None

All those after Rd 7: 10 QB's with 8 wins and 7 losses.

I have not gone back to see how many QB's were drafted in Rd1 and 1st overall who didn't make it to the SB because that's not the point. If you want to get to the SB picking a QB #1 overall gives you the best odds and taking one in Rd1 is your next best chance.

 

[CardLogic]

Ouchie got me thinking about this and my initial thought was, hey what about Brees and Brady and Warner and Favre and Montana; none of them were even taken in the 1st rd let alone pick #1. So I decided to do some research to prove Ouchie wrong and find out my perception was the incorrect one.

...If you want to get to the SB picking a QB #1 overall gives you the best odds and taking one in Rd1 is your next best chance.

Nice post and positive proof that it doesn't kill someone to say, "I was wrong."

 

[ajcardfan]

Good debate and rationale for whatever side you find yourself on.

Chris Sanders hit the nail on the head, at least in my case. Before NFL ticket and the internet all I could get was the scores scrolling at the bottom of whatever game I was watching. It was frustrating to see the Cards losing but not the same impact as watching a game that they were losing. In those days I would start to want losses for better draft picks because: I wasn't sitting through the misery of a losing effort and the draft was the only hope we had.

Now I can't stand to watch them lose and I say forget the draft until the season is over. I was in a very good mood this Sunday and I will fret over our draft position less and enjoy the win(s) more.

Ouchie has made some excellent points and if (when) we lose another game I will think about draft position as a consolation prize to help ease the pain of another loss. I fully understand why some fans want the Cards to lose out to enhance our draft position. These are your long term thinkers and the evidence of how important it is to have a Franchise QB and those QB's are found more in rd 1 and % wise more as the 1st pick in the draft.

Ouchie got me thinking about this and my initial thought was, hey what about Brees and Brady and Warner and Favre and Montana; none of them were even taken in the 1st rd let alone pick #1. So I decided to do some research to prove Ouchie wrong and find out my perception was the incorrect one.

Some basic numbers:

Number 1 overall picks at QB that have played in a SB is 11, 8 were the winners. These QB's have accounted for 15 wins, that's about 30% of the SB's by my math.

QB's drafted in rd 1 (excluding the #1 overall picks) that played in a SB is 20 accounting for another 9 SB wins.

So every QB drafted in Rd1 to play in a SB is 26 totalling 24 wins and 22 losses. 44 SB's with 2 QB's per game = 88. 46 of those starts were QB's drafted in Rd1 which is 52%.

Rd 2: 3 QB's with 3 wins and 3 losses.

Rd 3: 6 QB's with 4 wins and 6 losses.

Rd 4: 4 QB's with 1 win and 3 losses

Rd 5: None, Cards break the curse with John Skeleton.

Rd 6: 5 QB's with 4 wins & 3 losses. Lottery odds winner Tom Brady skews this # with 4 SB appearances.

Rd 7: None

All those after Rd 7: 10 QB's with 8 wins and 7 losses.

I have not gone back to see how many QB's were drafted in Rd1 and 1st overall who didn't make it to the SB because that's not the point. If you want to get to the SB picking a QB #1 overall gives you the best odds and taking one in Rd1 is your next best chance.

Thanks! Now that is a post worth reading!

 

[Jersey Girl]

Nice post and positive proof that it doesn't kill someone to say, "I was wrong."

I don't know. He hasn't posted again lately.