Game Thread: Suns vs. Grizzlies

[Chaplin]

You guys are totally missing the point.

Jake Voskuhl has played very well as our starter so far this year. That's a fact, and one that many people agree with.

The point is that Frank Johnson and countless other people are convinced that Voskuhl is better off the bench. Do you actually think that his statistics will be better than when he was starting? I can almost guarantee that they won't be. You want energy off the bench? Fine. Tell Penny and Zarko to be more active. Jahidi proved last night that he can also provide some offensive energy off the bench.

What's wrong with having a really active defender diving for loose balls and such from the opening tip, instead of waiting until the guy is inserted in the lineup?

 

[matt_whitlock]

What's wrong with having a really active defender diving for loose balls and such from the opening tip, instead of waiting until the guy is inserted in the lineup?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. But what's wrong with having a guy who will give you instant energy whenever we need it?

Jake Voskhul will start some more games for us this season. I don't think there's any real doubt of that. However, when guys like Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire go out of the lineup, and we put it Casey "the headless chicken" Jacobsen and Tom "knees, we don't need no stinkin knees!" Gugliota in, we need something that will overcome the obvious dip in talent. Enter Jake Voskhul.

Honestly, I'm probably just playing devil's advocate here. I can see it both ways. Yet, putting Jake in as a sub isn't a bad thing, regardless of whether he should be a starter or not. I don't expect Jahidi White to play the way he did last night on a consistent basis, but if he can give us something like that, we're suddenly don't really have a problem. Whether Jake starts or not, he'll get minutes, and now that we have Jahidi, we'll have a serviceable center in the game most of the time. What's not to like about that?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by sly fly
I'm not an FJ apologist, but every move he makes is met with criticism on this board.

THE SUNS WON THE FREAKIN GAME LAST NIGHT, GUYS!

They had the lead from start to finish, and the move to insert Jahidi White into the starting lineup paid off big-time.

Jake Voskuhl doesn't give a rat's ass if he starts. He knows he's earned minutes, and those won't go away. It was nice to see Jake NOT having to worry about his foul situation down the stretch.

I don't have a problem with starting Jahidi. It means they got him because they wanted him. It also means that they are going to use him. Hallelujah, FJ's got mountain in the middle that he is actually going to play!

Isn't it interesting how one player makes the whole team much more physically imposing.

Jahidi plays the physical center position and Amare changes from an average center to an intimidating PF. Marion switches from an undersized PF to a lightning quick swing player with great rebounding skills. JJ switches from a decent SF to an oversized 2.

It changes the matchup at every position save pg.

 

[Chaplin]

I think that I'm more concerned with the reasoning that our so-called coach is using in order to bench Jake. "We need his energy off the bench." Well, if the first 5 games of the season are any indication, it doesn't matter WHERE that energy comes from, as long as it comes. It does no good to pigeonhole Jake into being a bench player the rest of his career.

 

[jbeecham]

I can see your point about Jahidi. I just don't think he had earned the right to start in his 1st game as a Phx Sun when he didn't even get to practice with the team yet. I know Jake is a team player, but I would be insulted if someone handed my starting job away to a guy we just traded for that really hasn't played in a game all season and hasn't gotten any consistent minutes over the last 3 years. I like Jahidi's offense and I think that could be great to have with the 2nd unit because they struggle to score points. Penny pretty much just guns the ball when the 2nd team is on the floor. If he had a low post threat to feed the ball into then we might have not give up our lead or fall so far behind when resting Marbury, Marion, Amare & JJ.

I also didn't like the matchup of Jahidi guarding Gasol because Gasol is too quick for him and he can play out on the perimeter. I think Jake could have guarded him better.

 

[schutd]

I dont care if Jake starts or Jahidi starts. As long as we are geting 42+ minutes out of the two of them at the 5, Im happy.

If Jake cant take losing his starting slot, (one that was given to him by injury by the way,) he shouldnt be in this business.

Jake is a good guy, a hustler, a throwback player, whatever. He's NOT an elite center, and he never will be. To worry about pigeonholing the career ofwhat is nothing more than a serviceable player is laughable.

Jahidi, if he goes out there and takes some freaking heads off, SHOULD start.

SUNS RULE!

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by schutd
As long as we are geting 42+ minutes out of the two of them at the 5, I'm happy.

47 minutes last night. We've waited a long time for this.

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
Jahidi plays the physical center position and Amare changes from an average center to an intimidating PF. Marion switches from an undersized PF to a lightning quick swing player with great rebounding skills. JJ switches from a decent SF to an oversized 2.

And Marbury's playmaking overshadows his scoring. Five starters in double figures. Rebounding. Defense.

An outstanding group of Assistant Coaches.

This could become my favorite Suns team ever. The spotlight is now on Frank. (I hope he can rise to it.)

 

[Yuma]

Golden State should be a good test Monday. Eric Dampier has been a monster inside so far, and Richardson and Nick Van Exel just returned.

Joe, I think you are watching more basketball than me!!! We should put out a scouting magazine!! LOL!

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by schutd
I dont care if Jake starts or Jahidi starts. As long as we are geting 42+ minutes out of the two of them at the 5, Im happy.

Exactly!

 

[Yuma]

What we should be happy about, is not who is starting at center, but that we have two decent centers now! The big center problem is decently fixed for now.

The next biggest problem I see is that noone dribble penetrates when Marbury is out. The game comes to a screeching halt on offense for us when Marbs goes out!!! This started our big no score stretch in the third! Even when Marbs comes back in, it takes us some minutes to ramp it back up. Ever notice every team goes into a zone when Marbury sits? This is our next big problem to solve!!

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Yuma
What we should be happy about, is not who is starting at center, but that we have two decent centers now! The big center problem is decently fixed for now.

The next biggest problem I see is that noone dribble penetrates when Marbury is out. The game comes to a screeching halt on offense for us when Marbs goes out!!! This started our big no score stretch in the third! Even when Marbs comes back in, it takes us some minutes to ramp it back up. Ever notice every team goes into a zone when Marbury sits? This is our next big problem to solve!!

The opponents stay in a zone when Marbury comes back in also. The problem isn't Marbury's absence. The problem is a lack of good outside shooting and a lack of quick passing and movement to make up for it.

Joe Mama

 

[PhiLLmattiC]

If i was penny i would put up at least 15 shots a game from off the bench. no time to be patient.

 

[jbeecham]

I don't mind if Penny shoots especially when the 2nd team is in and there aren't really any other scorers on the floor. What I don't like is when he's rushing his shot and taking bad shots. If he's open then I don't see a problem with him shooting, but when there's a guy in his face and 18 seconds still on the shot clock and he hasn't passed the ball yet then he shouldn't be shooting.

 

[Errntknght]

The problem I have with the way Frank treats Jake is that I didn't like the way Jake was playing last year when Frank was ecstatic about him and started calling him one of his 'energy guys.' If he gets him playing that way again he's not going to be any more help than he was last year. I hoped if FJ had to play him like a real center for a few months he'd discover that Jake is a lot more valuable if he concentrates on defending in the paint, rebounding et cetera. Actually, Jake is a decent passer but probably not a creative one and while we'll all be dead before Frank designs any plays, Jake and teammates might come up with some on their own given time. He may also be a passable face up shooter in the style of Scotty but if he's just the energy guy off the bench we'll probably be several years finding out.

Of course, Jake may keep developing in spite of FJ's handling...

Another point to consider is that the best way to bust a zone, contrary to conventional wisdom, is by good interior passing. Believe it or not, Outlaw was our best zone buster last year. I rather doubt that FJ ever noticed that because he didn't go out of his way to play him versus zones. I'm not sure Jake could handle the job because he tends to get a bit excited under pressure but if the coaches structured the team play around him and gave him some experience he might do quite well.
In the long run I think Zarko will be the best man for that job because he's got all the tools for it - he's as tall as Jake with a better handle; presumeably, he can pass better than Jake and he can go up with a shot or drive. Right now he doesn't have the cool head that's required and it may not be the best idea to put him under pressure at this stage. I have to say, though, if I were FJ I'd be tempted to give him a try - if Jake wasn't up to it. Sometimes when you give a young guy a well defined role, even a difficult one, it helps his confidence. Oh, I guess we can forget about Frank trying anything like that...
While I'm on the subject of things that will never occur to Frank, I might as well mention playing a zone with Zarko as the middle man, ala Garnett. He's having trouble defending but he might do well in that job and that way he could get some PT without hurting the team. It would be a confidence builder for him if the scheme worked.

 

[creed]

About Jake being a starting Center...I prefer not. Even though Voskhul makes the best of a situation and has some success at starting center in general he's not tall or strong enough to match up against opposing teams starting centers. Jake is an energy guy that is best coming off the bench

 

[haverford]

I've got a hope/hunch/prayer that Barbosa may be just what the Suns need in order to bust those zones--deadly outside shooter (albeit preseason as evidence) and fearless slasher (albeit preseason evidence).

 

[matt_whitlock]

One thing we should realize is that Jake Voskhul has the ability to get better. Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, and Joe Johnson aren't the only young players on this team. I'm not sure of Li'l Jake's age, but he doesn't always have to be a guy who dives to the hoop when Marbury drives so he can put back Steph's missed layups. I don't ever expect him to be a low-post presense who we can dump the ball into and watch him go to work, but he could improve. He seems better this year than last year, if not just more assertive, and with Jake's work ethic there's no reason to expect that not to continue. By playoff time, if the guys aren't watching from their living rooms, Jake might be a very formidable starting center.

Case in point, we should be happy we're in this predicament, not upset. Whether Jake starts or not, we have 2 centers who can. When was the last time we really had that?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by matt_whitlock
By playoff time, if the guys aren't watching from their living rooms, Jake might be a very formidable starting center.

You're kidding, right?

I would be happy with adequate.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
You're kidding, right?

I would be happy with adequate.

I agree. Little Jake is never going to be any "formidable" center. He's a nice backup.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

Little Jake is better used off the bench anyway to provide energy. He lacks size to really play in the middle against starters and Jahidi White proved that against Memphis.
He added a lot of things that Jake couldn't do , that is no knock on Jake but White certainly should start over Jake.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by slinslin
Little Jake is better used off the bench anyway to provide energy.

Is there anything wrong with providing energy from the opening tip??

Look at the bright side, if Little Jake starts at all and has a bad game, you can always look to the above statement as the excuse.

 

[slinslin]

Yes there is.

Because if he doesn't sit on the bench there is nobody on it that can provide a spark of the bench.

He can't bring the same energy starting.

Why do we have to argue that players who rely completely on hustle and energy are bench players?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by slinslin

Why do we have to argue that players who rely completely on hustle and energy are bench players?

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Where in the rules does it say a starter can't rely on hustle and energy? Even Bo Outlaw started for Orlando once upon a time.

 

[Wally]

Originally posted by haverford
I've got a hope/hunch/prayer that Barbosa may be just what the Suns need in order to bust those zones--deadly outside shooter (albeit preseason as evidence) and fearless slasher (albeit preseason evidence).

I agree that Barbosa would be worth using to bust the zone.

Hopefully, Barbosa has been hurt and is now due to get some PT..... Otherwise, you may never find out if he is the answer to your hunch...... in other words, he may be destined to warm the seat next to Zarko who in all likelihood will be able to spend a great deal of time talking to Barbosa during the game. While I'm happy (at the present time) about the play of our new center I believe his acquisition will mean Jake's, Amare's & Zarko's minuets will decrease. As Chap will tell you, Googs is the logical guy to loose the minuets but many of us arm-chair coaches will tell you that we haven't seen much logic in the coaching abilitity.

Originally posted by Errntknght
The problem I have with the way Frank treats Jake is that I didn't like the way Jake was playing last year when Frank was ecstatic about him and started calling him one of his 'energy guys........
Of course, Jake may keep developing in spite of FJ's handling...

Don't count on it

Originally posted by Errntknght


Another point to consider is that the best way to bust a zone, contrary to conventional wisdom, is by good interior passing.

To have interior passing implies that someone is moving without the ball instead of standing around with their thumbs out of sight.

Originally posted by Errntknght
In the long run I think Zarko will be the best man for that job because he's got all the tools for it - he's as tall as Jake with a better handle; presumeably, he can pass better than Jake and he can go up with a shot or drive. Right now he doesn't have the cool head that's required and it may not be the best idea to put him under pressure at this stage. I have to say, though, if I were FJ I'd be tempted to give him a try - if Jake wasn't up to it. Sometimes when you give a young guy a well defined role, even a difficult one, it helps his confidence. Oh, I guess we can forget about Frank trying anything like that...
While I'm on the subject of things that will never occur to Frank, I might as well mention playing a zone with Zarko as the middle man, ala Garnett. He's having trouble defending but he might do well in that job and that way he could get some PT without hurting the team. It would be a confidence builder for him if the scheme worked.

Let's see if Zarko will get more than a DNP in the next game.

BTW, I'm really looking forward to becoming an optimist again.

 

[Errntknght]

I know that there are guys around the league who's best asset is their hustle or energy... Bo was one of the best. From what I've seen Jake is definitely not one of them. What I saw when Frankie was raving about him last year was Jake straying far from the paint as he chased guards after ill advised switches or 'jumping out' on them. He picked up many silly fouls and left us vulnerable around the basket. This year as a starter he was not doing that nearly as much - which, I guess, to some people appeared to be a lack of energy.

Hopefully, as a sub Jake will not return to his errant ways but I'm afraid he will because that's what impressed FJ last year. Of course, with a smart coach there would be no concern that Jake would keep developing as a post player whether starting or coming off the bench but with our guy, I'm not at all convinced that will happen, history being such a good indicator of future behavior. But I do give Frank a bit of credit, I thought if he was forced to rely on Jake as our primary center for a half a year or so he might see the light.

It's certainly not the case that I don't welcome a guy like Jahidi - he brings what I, like many others, have been longing to see on this team for years. In fact, one of the things I've faulted the Colangeli on for decades is that not only do they not maneuver to get dominating big men they don't even work hard at finding the tough second rank interior players. The acquistion of White is a very welcome departure from that and I hope it bodes well for the future. But I'm not too sanguine because they've stumbled onto an occasional one before then went on as if nothing had happened. (To paraphrase an old Mark Twain saying.)

Wally, I appreciate what you said about interior passing depending on guys moving without the ball as well as getting a decent passer into the middle. But Outlaw was fairly effective at getting the rock to Jake or Amare on the baseline last year... imagine what would happen if the team actually practiced such plays! Granted I'm being a bit of a Pollyanna to imagine FJ is going to do that...

And....sweet dreams guys about Barbosa being your long range zone buster. Heck, if a zone can force you to bring in subs in order to combat it, it's done it's job. Also, Barbosa is more likely to damage a zone by pushing the ball up court before it gets set than he is by launching a barrage of threes. Not that I wouldn't love to get a look at Barbosa on the floor myself.