Gameday Thread: Suns @ Lakers 11-6-2016

[Hoop Head]

I don't get why everyone is bashing Watson so much while claiming Walton has less experience. He did coach the Warriors for the first half of last season without Kerr. Plus he was their top assistant during their playoff run. Sure, Watson should play the rookies more and definitely stick PJ to the bench but the Lakers have been pretty decent this year, so far.

We're not going to the playoffs with our roster this year and I'd bet there is some front office pressure to play the vets to showcase them so they can be moved before the deadline for future assets. Tucker, Chandler, and possibly Knight won't be with this team next year and PJ and Tyson definitely don't fit into the longterm plans here.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Watson hate. . . wow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't get why everyone is bashing Watson so much while claiming Walton has less experience. He did coach the Warriors for the first half of last season without Kerr. Plus he was their top assistant during their playoff run. Sure, Watson should play the rookies more and definitely stick PJ to the bench but the Lakers have been pretty decent this year, so far.

We're not going to the playoffs with our roster this year and I'd bet there is some front office pressure to play the vets to showcase them so they can be moved before the deadline for future assets. Tucker, Chandler, and possibly Knight won't be with this team next year and PJ and Tyson definitely don't fit into the longterm plans here.

This is what the Suns do every season. This what they did the first half of last season too before injuries happened..."showcase vets". Its a rinse/repeat format for the Suns, draft promising players then sign or trade for useless vets then showcase the useless vets during the regular season to flip them for draft picks, rinse/repeat.

If we weren't killed with injuries last season, Booker may not even have got an opportunity to show his ability. If Tucker wasn't suspended to begin the year, Warren may not have got the opportunity to show his ability either.

Showcasing veterans at the expense of stunting the growth and development of our young blossoming players is not a good idea.

I don't think playing with Knight and Tucker are healthy for Booker and Warren in the long run because they will develop bad habits from these two. Warren is already starting to get somewhat of a tunnel vision because he doesn't want to pass to Knight cause he knows Knight won't ever give it back.

Then of course there are the 3 rookies who get no look at playing time because of Knight and Tucker.

 

[thephoenixson28]

I love Watson.

 

[slinslin]

I gave Brandon Knight the benefit of the doubt but eventually enough is enough. His play is atrocious and the contribution by Barbosa, Tucker and Dudley is really unaccaptable as well.

 

[Errntknght]

We aren't bashing Watson yet. Naturally we are going to talk about what we prefer him to do with his rotations.

I sympathize with his position - he's under pressure to win games and I think that 0-4 start scared him. He shouldn't be under such pressure since the obvious first priorty should be developing the youngsters but with Foamy as his real boss - a guy with a very limited understanding of the game, he can't feel secure unless he wins quite a few games. Heck, you can make a good case for tanking this year - by which I mean play the young players almost exclusively. There's very little chance that Barbosa, Dudley, Chandler and Tucker will be around when we reach contender status so playing them now is mainly wasting PT.

 

[slinslin]

Well just don't play Knight and Barbosa again. They are very similiar players in good ways but especially in bad plays.

I don't think you can have two low bbiq guards in the backcourt at the same time. Especially when paired with another basketball mind like PJ Tucker.

 

[JCSunsfan]

This is what the Suns do every season. This what they did the first half of last season too before injuries happened..."showcase vets". Its a rinse/repeat format for the Suns, draft promising players then sign or trade for useless vets then showcase the useless vets during the regular season to flip them for draft picks, rinse/repeat.

If we weren't killed with injuries last season, Booker may not even have got an opportunity to show his ability. If Tucker wasn't suspended to begin the year, Warren may not have got the opportunity to show his ability either.

Showcasing veterans at the expense of stunting the growth and development of our young blossoming players is not a good idea.

I don't think playing with Knight and Tucker are healthy for Booker and Warren in the long run because they will develop bad habits from these two. Warren is already starting to get somewhat of a tunnel vision because he doesn't want to pass to Knight cause he knows Knight won't ever give it back.

Then of course there are the 3 rookies who get no look at playing time because of Knight and Tucker.

Of course this is it. That's why Knight and PJ are in the starting line up every game. No, wait. . .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JCSunsfan]

We aren't bashing Watson yet. Naturally we are going to talk about what we prefer him to do with his rotations.

I sympathize with his position - he's under pressure to win games and I think that 0-4 start scared him. He shouldn't be under such pressure since the obvious first priorty should be developing the youngsters but with Foamy as his real boss - a guy with a very limited understanding of the game, he can't feel secure unless he wins quite a few games. Heck, you can make a good case for tanking this year - by which I mean play the young players almost exclusively. There's very little chance that Barbosa, Dudley, Chandler and Tucker will be around when we reach contender status so playing them now is mainly wasting PT.

Developing young players means winning some games. These players are competitors. If winning isn't at least part of the equation they will lose interest. There also a lot of young players to develop. Developing Booker and Warren is priority one right now. Then you fit Bender and Chriss into the picture.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sunsfan88]

Of course this is it. That's why Knight and PJ are in the starting line up every game. No, wait. . .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not about starting lineup or not, it's about minutes. I can't remember if it was Phil Jackson or Pop but I remember one of them talking about either Odom or Ginobili a while back and had a great quote saying how starting or not doesn't matter, minutes are what matters.

I'm fine with Tucker and Knight starting if they get subbed out after 5 mins each half and only play 10 mins each game with rest of the minutes going to Bender and Ulis.

 

[sunsfan88]

Developing young players means winning some games. These players are competitors. If winning isn't at least part of the equation they will lose interest. There also a lot of young players to develop. Developing Booker and Warren is priority one right now. Then you fit Bender and Chriss into the picture.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How does Knight/Tucker help Tucker develop? If anything, it does the opposite. I blame Brandon Knight and his ball hog style of play for Booker's slow start to the season. Booker looks a whole lot more comfortable out there with his best friend Tyler Ulis than Knight. And the team looks better with Ulis than Knight too.

We aren't bashing Watson yet. Naturally we are going to talk about what we prefer him to do with his rotations.

I sympathize with his position - he's under pressure to win games and I think that 0-4 start scared him. He shouldn't be under such pressure since the obvious first priorty should be developing the youngsters but with Foamy as his real boss - a guy with a very limited understanding of the game, he can't feel secure unless he wins quite a few games. Heck, you can make a good case for tanking this year - by which I mean play the young players almost exclusively. There's very little chance that Barbosa, Dudley, Chandler and Tucker will be around when we reach contender status so playing them now is mainly wasting PT.

I agree with this but personally I don't have a problem playing veteran players if their actually producing. Dudley and Chandler have played their role well so far imo so they could continue to get their minutes. Knight and Tucker? No.

It's honestly not even about playing young guys more anymore, it's about doing what's fair and awarding players for performance and demoting players for performance.

 

[Mainstreet]

We're not going to the playoffs with our roster this year and I'd bet there is some front office pressure to play the vets to showcase them so they can be moved before the deadline for future assets. Tucker, Chandler, and possibly Knight won't be with this team next year and PJ and Tyson definitely don't fit into the longterm plans here.

I'm hoping Watson is being pressured into playing the vets, otherwise I would like to see the youngsters play. As you note, the Suns are not going anywhere this season.

It's interesting how the Suns have focused upon making Chandler an inside scoring presence.

 

[JCSunsfan]

How does Knight/Tucker help Tucker develop? If anything, it does the opposite. I blame Brandon Knight and his ball hog style of play for Booker's slow start to the season. Booker looks a whole lot more comfortable out there with his best friend Tyler Ulis than Knight. And the team looks better with Ulis than Knight too.

I agree with this but personally I don't have a problem playing veteran players if their actually producing. Dudley and Chandler have played their role well so far imo so they could continue to get their minutes. Knight and Tucker? No.

It's honestly not even about playing young guys more anymore, it's about doing what's fair and awarding players for performance and demoting players for performance.

Well. You could blame it on that, but you would be wrong. It was a toe injury that slowed him down.

BTW, Booker scored 37 and 38 with THIS rotation, so there was some benefit. I am all for getting the three rookies minutes--and this year. But I do think that getting the rest of the roster in a groove will help them when they do get the minutes.

They are both teenagers btw. Handling them with a bit of patience is probably wise. Its not like they are in the doghouse.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Don't laugh, but this team needs a coach like Doug Collins...someone that has experience coaching up young talent for a couple of years...then you bring in the coach that can get this team over the hump and to the next level.

I'm not sure Watson is the the guy to coach them up and develop them.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I agree. Coach learning on the job while young players are learning the job isn't a good combo . . . for anything other than the lotto. So I'm good with it for this year. Then draft one of the three stud PGs, ship Bledsoe out for a good vet with some juice left in him for a couple of years of leadership (more than a Dudley). Then get your new coach who is good with youngins.

 

[sunsfan88]

l

They are both teenagers btw. Handling them with a bit of patience is probably wise. Its not like they are in the doghouse.

Are you talking about Bender and Ulis? If so, how are they not in the dog house?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Are you talking about Bender and Ulis? If so, how are they not in the dog house?

There is no indication that they are sitting as a means of retribution or discipline.

 

[Errntknght]

Coaches have a mental limit on how many players they can juggle in their minds at a time. They tend to cut their 'playing rioster' down to most they can comfortably deal with. We saw that in full force with D'Antoni - eight seemed to be stressful for him. In football HC's break out offense, defense and special teams and assign an assistant to be in charge of each. Of course the structure of football lends itself to that. Now and then basketball coaches do that with defense - Larry Bird is one of the few who has taken it beyond that when he was coaching Indiana - he had assistants in charge of the offense and defense. (Carlisle on D, IIRC) It was not a resounding success and Larry migrated to being a GM soon after he stepped down - he wasn't fired or in jeopardy.

On a slightly different topic, has anyone noticed how Watson behaves on the sideline while the game is in progress. I haven't seen him flitting up and down the sideling like D'Antoni and Ainge used to do - but maybe he does it and the camera doesn't pick it up. I think that's a sign of a poor coach - one who doesn't trust the coaching he does in practice. It's not the only sign of a poor coach...

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Coaches have a mental limit on how many players they can juggle in their minds at a time. They tend to cut their 'playing rioster' down to most they can comfortably deal with. We saw that in full force with D'Antoni - eight seemed to be stressful for him. In football HC's break out offense, defense and special teams and assign an assistant to be in charge of each. Of course the structure of football lends itself to that. Now and then basketball coaches do that with defense - Larry Bird is one of the few who has taken it beyond that when he was coaching Indiana - he had assistants in charge of the offense and defense. (Carlisle on D, IIRC) It was not a resounding success and Larry migrated to being a GM soon after he stepped down - he wasn't fired or in jeopardy.

On a slightly different topic, has anyone noticed how Watson behaves on the sideline while the game is in progress. I haven't seen him flitting up and down the sideling like D'Antoni and Ainge used to do - but maybe he does it and the camera doesn't pick it up. I think that's a sign of a poor coach - one who doesn't trust the coaching he does in practice. It's not the only sign of a poor coach...

LOL. People will find any excuse to call Watson a poor coach...

 

[RON_IN_OC]

I agree. Coach learning on the job while young players are learning the job isn't a good combo . . . for anything other than the lotto. So I'm good with it for this year. Then draft one of the three stud PGs, ship Bledsoe out for a good vet with some juice left in him for a couple of years of leadership (more than a Dudley). Then get your new coach who is good with youngins.

I wonder if Larry Brown has a season or two of teaching left in him...

 

[AzStevenCal]

LOL. People will find any excuse to call Watson a poor coach...

Read it again, I'm pretty sure that was a reasonably favorable comment on Watson.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree. Coach learning on the job while young players are learning the job isn't a good combo . . . for anything other than the lotto. So I'm good with it for this year. Then draft one of the three stud PGs, ship Bledsoe out for a good vet with some juice left in him for a couple of years of leadership (more than a Dudley). Then get your new coach who is good with youngins.

Man... Doug Collins would be PERFECT for this group.

Watson is literally nothing. He was nothing special in college or the pros, was nothing special as an asst. on nothing special teams.

I expect nothing special from him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Man... Doug Collins would be PERFECT for this group.

Watson is literally nothing. He was nothing special in college or the pros, was nothing special as an asst. on nothing special teams.

I expect nothing special from him.

He was an acknowledged leader on and off the court, a hard-nosed defender and playmaker that got the most of his very limited ability. Considering his marginal physical skills, I think it's amazing he had a 4 year run at UCLA and a 13 year career in the NBA. I expect a lot from him.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Read it again, I'm pretty sure that was a reasonably favorable comment on Watson.

Fair enough. I'm just so used to reading hate comments for Watson by Suns fans that it gets hard to tell.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He was an acknowledged leader on and off the court, a hard-nosed defender and playmaker that got the most of his very limited ability. Considering his marginal physical skills, I think it's amazing he had a 4 year run at UCLA and a 13 year career in the NBA. I expect a lot from him.

He was nothing special and he's shown literally nothing so far.

You look at the Lakers and they have prob comparable talent to us... but another super young HC who actually looks like he has a SYSTEM and the team actually looks like a TEAM.

We look like a pickup basketball team with talent. Anyone can do the job Watson's doing.

Can you tell me anything, any change, any aspect of the team that's good and say that's on Watson?

 

[AzStevenCal]

He was nothing special and he's shown literally nothing so far.

You look at the Lakers and they have prob comparable talent to us... but another super young HC who actually looks like he has a SYSTEM and the team actually looks like a TEAM.

We look like a pickup basketball team with talent. Anyone can do the job Watson's doing.

Can you tell me anything, any change, any aspect of the team that's good and say that's on Watson?

Not really. We clearly have better chemistry this season but that could easily be the absence of Morris and Hornacek. I like the fact that we are playing more physically but that has yet to pay dividends defensively. But despite last night's game, all in all, I see far more positives than negatives when I watch our core players. Unfortunately, the negative impact of Watson, Tucker, Barbosa and even Dudley hide a lot of our strengths. I can't see Knight and Tucker dragging us down forever though.

I like the job Walton is doing, he's turned them around fairly quickly. He even has Nick Young attempting to play defense occasionally. But I wouldn't draw any grand conclusions from the small sample we have right now. We had a couple of chances late in the game last night to take the lead and probably win, had we done that I suspect many of us would be viewing each team a little differently today.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Watson has proven or shown anything. He hasn't. I just don't buy the idea that he was mediocre as a player so we should expect mediocrity from him as a coach. As a player, he was clearly an over-achiever. The coaches he's worked for and with have all been very positive in their remarks about him and his players like playing for him.

He has enough experience with him on the sideline to make up for any shortcomings he might have technically, IMO. He appears to be able to communicate effectively to his players and they have all (reportedly) bought into what he's selling. I can't think of a single coaching attribute that's more important than that.