Gentry will never coach us to a title

[desertdawg]

Howard had 26/15/5 in 3 qtrs, he destroyed both Lopez and Gortat so no it wouldn't have made much of a difference especially in a game we lost by 23.

Coaches adjust to the rosters in front of them to get the best out of their players. Just because somebody comes off the bench doesn't make them a worse player. For example a few years ago Flopinobli came off the bench from the Spurs even though he was the better player and even this season Lamar Odom comes off the bench for the Lakers even though he's better than the oft injured Bynum and the under-performing Artest (Odom can play SF).

So using your logic Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich are complete morons. However their championship rings seem to disagree with that assessment

I never said Pop or Jackson were anything, if your getting upset, I apologise. You should watch the games before you bring in stats that only cover what Howard did against both of our centers. Some one here already did though so enjoy the read amigo. (I will tape the games for you if it's a schedule thing)

Defensive, rebounding and fouls analysis


It is impossible, of course, to learn about one-on-one defensive stats in a game from the box score. Or to keep track over 48 minutes while watching the game.

I appreciate that AzCentral.com/The Arizona Republic kept track and reported the outcome from our loss to Orlando.

At the Center position, Dwight Howard made 4/5 shots vs. Lopez in Robin's 17 minutes. But he made only 5/12 vs. Gortat in Marcin's 28 minutes.

Siler played the final 3 minutes of garbage time and had 3 rebounds to Lopez's 4 in 17 minutes. Gortat did not have a good rebounding night, pulling down only 4. A total of only 11 from the Center position. Warrick led the team with 8.

Lopez picked up 4 fouls in his 17 minutes. Gortat picked up 2 fouls in his 28 minutes. That is an example of why I don't accept the excuse that it is better to let Lopez get the fouls at the beginning of the game.

All it shows is that Gortat plays better defense without fouling and Lopez plays worse defense and gets more fouls.

Alvin Gentry is slowly moving in the right direction, now starting Gortat in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters, but sticking with Lopez to start the game and let the opposing Center establish his territory.

'Though you might like to see these stats.

I wonder if Gentry reads AzCentral.com.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns...agic-game.html

 

[Covert Rain]

The main people that bring it up are Gortat homers that think that he can do absolutely no wrong. For example when he has a 12 point, 8 rebound game against a mediocre Rockets team - the first person they blame is the coach.

Gortat is a good player and a welcome addition to this team but he's not anywhere near as good as some people make him out to be.

Who are these people? Most people I have seen say that Gortat is a decent center. I don't see anybody saying he is a super star or anything. It's not like getting 8 rebounds and scoring in double digits is bad. Besides, look at what he had done against really good teams like Boston. We need a center to get close to double digit rebounds each night. Gortat scoring has been a bonus.

Having said that, Gortat has been a double double machine and just cracked the top 10 centers in the NBA in terms of efficiency. Scored in double digits 14 out of the last 15, and grabbed 8 or more rebounds in all but 7 out of the last 27 games.

I guess I don't understand "he is not as good as people make him out to be". I would say people make him out to be a Center who will get you close to a double double each night which is exactly what a center should be in the NBA. The exact thing that Lopez should be but is not.

I would say that is pretty damn good for a guy who had next to no playing time for a chunk of the season in Orlando.

 

[Evil Ash]

I never said Pop or Jackson were anything, if your getting upset, I apologise. You should watch the games before you bring in stats that only cover what Howard did against both of our centers. Some one here already did though so enjoy the read amigo. (I will tape the games for you if it's a schedule thing)

Defensive, rebounding and fouls analysis


It is impossible, of course, to learn about one-on-one defensive stats in a game from the box score. Or to keep track over 48 minutes while watching the game.

I appreciate that AzCentral.com/The Arizona Republic kept track and reported the outcome from our loss to Orlando.

At the Center position, Dwight Howard made 4/5 shots vs. Lopez in Robin's 17 minutes. But he made only 5/12 vs. Gortat in Marcin's 28 minutes.

Siler played the final 3 minutes of garbage time and had 3 rebounds to Lopez's 4 in 17 minutes. Gortat did not have a good rebounding night, pulling down only 4. A total of only 11 from the Center position. Warrick led the team with 8.

Lopez picked up 4 fouls in his 17 minutes. Gortat picked up 2 fouls in his 28 minutes. That is an example of why I don't accept the excuse that it is better to let Lopez get the fouls at the beginning of the game.

All it shows is that Gortat plays better defense without fouling and Lopez plays worse defense and gets more fouls.

Alvin Gentry is slowly moving in the right direction, now starting Gortat in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters, but sticking with Lopez to start the game and let the opposing Center establish his territory.

'Though you might like to see these stats.

I wonder if Gentry reads AzCentral.com.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns...agic-game.html

I'm not taking anything personally. I'm actually quite calm and rational right now.

Those stats show that Gortat did do a better job against Howard. I'm not arguing that. Neither were that good against him or else he wouldn't have had a huge night.

In fact that those stats show nothing to change the fact about what I was talking about. Lopez still has to get his mins and in those mins against teams like the Magic he would be going against Howard. Does that suddenly make it a better matchup? Nope as Howard would still likely destroy Lopez but at a different time of the game. So again the difference in the game aspect is still likely negligible. We lost by 23. If Lopez is stinking up the joint it really doesn't matter when he's doing it, its the fact that he is doing that.

Some on here think that Gentry is holding this team back because Gortat is on the bench. I disagree with that assessment and have shown examples of the better player coming off the bench by multiple championship winning coaches.

Gortat starting may make a difference from a personal standpoint but from a team perspective it likely means SQUAT.

Our real problems revolve around the lack of starter talent at the PF and SG positions not whether or not Gortat is starting.

 

[desertdawg]

I'm not taking anything personally. I'm actually quite calm and rational right now.

Those stats show that Gortat did do a better job against Howard. I'm not arguing that. Neither were that good against him or else he wouldn't have had a huge night.

In fact that those stats show nothing to change the fact about what I was talking about. Lopez still has to get his mins and in those mins against teams like the Magic he would be going against Howard. Does that suddenly make it a better matchup? Nope as Howard would still likely destroy Lopez but at a different time of the game. So again the difference in the game aspect is still likely negligible. We lost by 23. If Lopez is stinking up the joint it really doesn't matter when he's doing it, its the fact that he is doing that.

Some on here think that Gentry is holding this team back because Gortat is on the bench. I disagree with that assessment and have shown examples of the better player coming off the bench by multiple championship winning coaches.

Gortat starting may make a difference from a personal standpoint but from a team perspective it likely means SQUAT.

Our real problems revolve around the lack of starter talent at the PF and SG positions not whether or not Gortat is starting.

It's all good.

 

[Evil Ash]

Who are these people? Most people I have seen say that Gortat is a decent center. I don't see anybody saying he is a super star or anything. It's not like getting 8 rebounds and scoring in double digits is bad. Besides, look at what he had done against really good teams like Boston. We need a center to get close to double digit rebounds each night. Gortat scoring has been a bonus.

Having said that, Gortat has been a double double machine and just cracked the top 10 centers in the NBA in terms of efficiency.

I would say that is pretty damn good for a guy who had next to no playing time for a chunk of the season in Orlando.

BC, desertdawg, and suns88 usually as they are the loudest in the "Start Gortat" bandwagon and have a tendency to overhype him. He's a good player but they act like he's a superstar.

Just as an example, BC actually said that he wouldn't trade Gortat for Howard. Seriously

 

[BC867]

Those stats show that Gortat did do a better job against Howard ...

In fact that those stats show nothing to change the fact about what I was talking about. Lopez still has to get his mins and in those mins against teams like the Magic he would be going against Howard.

I think you missed the point of those stats I had posted from the Suns-Magic game.

Dwight Howard played 34 minutes and therefore spent 14 minutes on the bench. Robin Lopez played a total of 17 minutes.

If Lopez had come off the bench whenever Howard was out of the game, 14 of his 17 minutes would not have been against Howard. And those other 3 minutes could have easily been eliminated.

Leaving Gortat to play 34 minutes again Howard. He actually played 28, only because the blowout became evident. That would also alleviate the problem of Gortat playing 18 consecutive minutes in both the 1st and 2nd halves against fresher starting Centers.

Use Lopez against the opponents' backup Centers because (despite his scoring 4 points at a clip), his rebounding and defense are no match for starting Centers. Any starting Center, not just the best in the league.

Actually, Robin has shown that his rebounding and defense is no match even against backup Centers, but that's another story. One step at a time.

 

[Covert Rain]

Just as an example, BC actually said that he wouldn't trade Gortat for Howard. Seriously

OK, I missed that. That would be a no brainer trade and if that is his position he deserves one of these:



I will say though, when looking at the non Super Star Centers in the NBA. You have to rank Gortat up there in that next tier. He has been climbing up the stat charts since the trade. Your chances of getting a Howard caliber player are slim to none. So, I don't see how any Suns fan can be disappointed in what we are getting in Gortat knowing you are never going to get a Howard caliber center barring this team hitting rock bottom, getting the 1st pick in the draft, and hoping that type of player is even on the board in that given year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

OK, I missed that. That would be a no brainer trade and if that is his position he deserves one of these:



I will say though, when looking at the non Super Star Centers in the NBA. You have to rank Gortat up there in that next tier. He has been climbing up the stat charts since the trade. Your chances of getting a Howard caliber player are slim to none. So, I don't see how any Suns fan can be disappointed in what we are getting in Gortat knowing you are never going to get a Howard caliber center barring this team hitting rock bottom, getting the 1st pick in the draft, and hoping that type of player is even on the board in that given year.

Given this team and this team's likely future, I wouldn't trade Gortat for Howard either. Not because I think Marcin is the equal of Dwight or ever likely to get there but simply because I don't think the difference between the two players will bring us a championship. Accepting that, I'd much rather watch Gortat play than Howard. I love his attitude, I love his smile and I love his composure. I think he's the kind of player that will make other players WANT to play alongside him and I think Van Gundy has already taken Howard too far down a different path.

If it's not clear, I acknowledge that Howard is a far superior player but I think Gortat is an equally superior teammate. And then, once you factor in the difference in salary the idea of choosing Gortat over Howard becomes less farfetched, IMO.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Given this team and this team's likely future, I wouldn't trade Gortat for Howard either. Not because I think Marcin is the equal of Dwight or ever likely to get there but simply because I don't think the difference between the two players will bring us a championship. Accepting that, I'd much rather watch Gortat play than Howard. I love his attitude, I love his smile and I love his composure. I think he's the kind of player that will make other players WANT to play alongside him and I think Van Gundy has already taken Howard too far down a different path.

If it's not clear, I acknowledge that Howard is a far superior player but I think Gortat is an equally superior teammate. And then, once you factor in the difference in salary the idea of choosing Gortat over Howard becomes less farfetched, IMO.

Steve

Insane. I simply can't put it in better words.

 

[Mulli]

Given this team and this team's likely future, I wouldn't trade Gortat for Howard either. Not because I think Marcin is the equal of Dwight or ever likely to get there but simply because I don't think the difference between the two players will bring us a championship. Accepting that, I'd much rather watch Gortat play than Howard. I love his attitude, I love his smile and I love his composure. I think he's the kind of player that will make other players WANT to play alongside him and I think Van Gundy has already taken Howard too far down a different path.

If it's not clear, I acknowledge that Howard is a far superior player but I think Gortat is an equally superior teammate. And then, once you factor in the difference in salary the idea of choosing Gortat over Howard becomes less farfetched, IMO.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Insane. I simply can't put it in better words.

Try. Don't just pull a Mulli, make your case. I thought I made mine. I think Howard is a dominating force that has been taught how NOT to make his teammates better. I think Van Gundy has absolutely destroyed that kid and if I have to choose between paying 7 or 8 million to Gortat vs a max contract for Howard, I choose Gortat. He has fewer miles on him, he's smarter than Howard and he's all about the team. Add in the fact that I don't think we will compete for a championship during Howard (or Gortat's career), I'd rather watch Marcin play than Dwight.

I might end up regretting this choice if we find ourselves just a dominating center away from winning it all but I think Billy Madison has a better chance of making AFI's list of 100 greatest movies than we do of winning it all in the next 7 or 8 years.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well said, well spoken.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Try. Don't just pull a Mulli, make your case. I thought I made mine. I think Howard is a dominating force that has been taught how NOT to make his teammates better. I think Van Gundy has absolutely destroyed that kid and if I have to choose between paying 7 or 8 million to Gortat vs a max contract for Howard, I choose Gortat. He has fewer miles on him, he's smarter than Howard and he's all about the team. Add in the fact that I don't think we will compete for a championship during Howard (or Gortat's career), I'd rather watch Marcin play than Dwight.

I might end up regretting this choice if we find ourselves just a dominating center away from winning it all but I think Billy Madison has a better chance of making AFI's list of 100 greatest movies than we do of winning it all in the next 7 or 8 years.

Steve

You never ever ever ever pass up an opportunity to get a future hall of famer on your team that is still in his prime. PERIOD. I don't care what the state of your team is.

Getting said player, leads to more free agents wanting to come here or be willing to be part of a sign and trade. Said person would sell tickets and jerseys. Said player would lead to more appearances on National television. Said player would instantly change the very face of this franchise from a finesse up and down team to a defensive focused team in the paint. We have all talked about the Suns changing the identity of this team. A trade like that would do it in an instant.

I don't buy into the Howard is ruined crap. If Phil Jackson can turn Kobe from being a selfish jack hole into a better team player than it can happen to Howard. Personally I don't think Howard is anywhere near as bad as you elude.

I will say it again. Simply insane.

 

[Mulli]

You never ever ever ever pass up an opportunity to get a future hall of famer on your team that is still in his prime. PERIOD. I don't care what the state of your team is.

Getting said player, leads to more free agents wanting to come here or be willing to be part of a sign and trade. Said person would sell tickets and jerseys. Said player would lead to more appearances on National television. Said player would instantly change the very face of this franchise from a finesse up and down team to a defensive focused team in the paint. We have all talked about the Suns changing the identity of this team. A trade like that would do it in an instant.

I don't buy into the Howard is ruined crap. If Phil Jackson can turn Kobe from being a selfish jack hole into a better team player than it can happen to Howard. Personally I don't think Howard is anywhere near as bad as you elude.

I will say it again. Simply insane.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You never ever ever ever pass up an opportunity to get a future hall of famer on your team that is still in his prime. PERIOD. I don't care what the state of your team is.

I'm not convinced Howard is a future HOFer but it's hard to argue your point. When I made my first post on this I came close to arguing the other side. There is much to be said for the point that if you have a chance to build your team around the best player at his position (especially when it's a center) you do it regardless of other concerns.

Getting said player, leads to more free agents wanting to come here or be willing to be part of a sign and trade. Said person would sell tickets and jerseys. Said player would lead to more appearances on National television. Said player would instantly change the very face of this franchise from a finesse up and down team to a defensive focused team in the paint. We have all talked about the Suns changing the identity of this team. A trade like that would do it in an instant.

Orlando has surrounded Howard with a lot of talent through the years. What exactly have they won?

I don't buy into the Howard is ruined crap. If Phil Jackson can turn Kobe from being a selfish jack hole into a better team player than it can happen to Howard. Personally I don't think Howard is anywhere near as bad as you elude.

How many years has it taken Phil to accomplish this? Also, Stan Van Gundy is not Phil. There may be a few coaches in this game that can turn Howard into the player he should be (he should be one of the greatest ever, he isn't even close) but I don't see one of those in Phoenix. Do you?

I will say it again. Simply insane.

Maybe we define insane differently. Perhaps it's a compliment and I misunderstood? I think I have a reasoned opinion and I think it's quite reasonable for others to disagree with it. As a matter of fact, I'm only slightly committed to my position as I can certainly see the other side of this argument.

It's only when you consider the other factors that it even becomes conceivable. But there ARE other factors - money, chemistry and the probability that his acquisition doesn't bring us much (or any) closer to a championship. Fire Gentry, solve the ownership problem and hire a defensive minded coach (such as Chicago's) that actually knows how to work with his players and I'd jump at the chance to land Howard but that's not likely to happen in Phoenix. As it stands, I'd rather watch Marcin play the game.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Just as an example, BC actually said that he wouldn't trade Gortat for Howard. Seriously.

OK, I missed that. That would be a no brainer trade and if that is his position he deserves one of these:

Now that I have gotten your attention, think about the point that I made.

The Orlando Magic, despite winning two conference titles (1995, 2009) and three division titles (1995, 1996, 2008) has never won a championship. The Magic are not favored to win it this year either.

Whereas another team trading for Dwight Howard might push them over the top, the Suns trading for him would be no more successful than when we obtained Shaq.

As long as this is Steve's team, Marcin Gortat is more suited for our success . . . if we add a not-over-the-hill Shooting Guard and quality backups at Center and Power Forward.

Calling having Howard a no-brainer is looking at having an All Star and either making the playoffs or going beyond the 1st round. That might be OK for recent Suns fans.

But after watching the Suns play that role since 1970 (that's 41 years of rooting for the home team), I want more to see us round out our roster around Gortat and become something my Suns have never been -- strong in the post-season and truly competitive.

Stop for a minute and think about that. Can you understand what I'm saying?

It's about team balance more than having one All Star. We have a long way to go before having Howard would take us to the promised land.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm not convinced Howard is a future HOFer but it's hard to argue your point. When I made my first post on this I came close to arguing the other side. There is much to be said for the point that if you have a chance to build your team around the best player at his position (especially when it's a center) you do it regardless of other concerns.

If you look at his stats and where he is at relative to his age, barring a major injury he will be a lock IMO.

Orlando has surrounded Howard with a lot of talent through the years. What exactly have they won?

First off I think Stan Van Gundy is overrated as a coach and has squandered both talent and opportunity. I can name a bunch of HOF players that didn't win anything but still had a huge impact on the franchise. You can have a ton of talent on a team but chemistry matters and so who is coaching them. Winning a title has more to do with just talent.

I don't blame CB for not winning a title here. I don't blame JS and KM for not winning a title in Utah....the list goes on.

How many years has it taken Phil to accomplish this? Also, Stan Van Gundy is not Phil. There may be a few coaches in this game that can turn Howard into the player he should be (he should be one of the greatest ever, he isn't even close) but I don't see one of those in Phoenix. Do you?

Never said he is comparable and I am not sure that matters. If you trade for a guy like that, it opens some doors on which coaches are willing to come here. Phil never would have ended up with the Lakers if Kobe wasn't there. Also, again, we disagree that Howard is "ruined" so I don't think it's as big a task as you make it out to be.

It's only when you consider the other factors that it even becomes conceivable. But there ARE other factors - money, chemistry and the probability that his acquisition doesn't bring us much (or any) closer to a championship. Fire Gentry, solve the ownership problem and hire a defensive minded coach (such as Chicago's) that actually knows how to work with his players and I'd jump at the chance to land Howard but that's not likely to happen in Phoenix. As it stands, I'd rather watch Marcin play the game. Steve

I won't argue the likelihood of such a trade. That is an entirely different discussion. Just making the point that getting such a player opens so many doors for this team, you could not pass up an opportunity to get that type of player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Also, again, we disagree that Howard is "ruined" so I don't think it's as big a task as you make it out to be.

Yeah, "ruined" is too strong a word although I did say something along those lines. I think Van Gundy has done a lot of damage to the kid but you're right, it's probably correctable in the right situation. I have NO hope that the Phoenix Suns would ever be that right situation.

I also have to say that I don't think we've seen the best Gortat has to offer. He is so much better today than he was just a month ago. I doubt he will ever be among the 2 or 3 best centers in the game but I do believe he is the kind of player that you can build around.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Now that I have gotten your attention, think about the point that I made.

The Orlando Magic, despite winning two conference titles (1995, 2009) and three division titles (1995, 1996, 2008) has never won a championship. The Magic are not favored to win it this year either.

So your saying it's Howard's fault? Do I have to make a list of HOF's who had big impacts on franchises but didn't win a title?

Whereas another team trading for Dwight Howard might push them over the top, the Suns trading for him would be no more successful than when we obtained Shaq.

Howard is younger and still in his prime and his presence on this team would facilitate other moves that would reshape this team. He is not Shaq at the tail end of his career.

As long as this is Steve's team, Marcin Gortat is more suited for our success . . . if we add a not-over-the-hill Shooting Guard and quality backups at Center and Power Forward.

Why? Howard is better around the rim, makes this team instantly better on defense in the paint and can catch ally oops from Steve from just about anywhere on the floor. It's not like Gortat has a Dirk range from the court and is going to bring people out to the 3 point line or anything. His game is also around the rim but isn't as strong at this point.

Calling having Howard a no-brainer is looking at having an All Star and either making the playoffs or going beyond the 1st round. That might be OK for recent Suns fans.

Huh? The Suns biggest issues have been in the paint and the inability to defend. If you don't think Howard instantly solidified our paint play...your crazy. Does that mean we would have enough talent to go all the way? Probably not but it's not like the Suns would stand pat if they could get their hands on the guy.

But after watching the Suns play that role since 1970 (that's 41 years of rooting for the home team), I want more to see us round out our roster around Gortat and become something my Suns have never been -- strong in the post-season and truly competitive.

Stop for a minute and think about that. Can you understand what I'm saying?

It's about team balance more than having one All Star. We have a long way to go before having Howard would take us to the promised land.

The Suns have always been a finesse and run and gun franchise. If you truly want this franchise to change its stripes it starts with defense and paint play.

Also, of course it's not about having one All star. If you bring a guy like Howard in your talking about making over the roster through multiple moves. It's not like you trade for a guy like that and stand pat. I don't think anybody was even suggesting that.

At any rate, this is not even a realistic scenario anyway.

 

[Mainstreet]

Just came back to this thread. I wish the discussion was more focused on the PF position. This is where the Suns need more beef. Preferably a PF that can play both PF and center. It would solve a lot of problems.

 

[BC867]

Just came back to this thread. I wish the discussion was more focused on the PF position. This is where the Suns need more beef. Preferably a PF that can play both PF and center. It would solve a lot of problems.

I'm sure a lot of us agree with you, but I just don't see the Suns moving Frye with his recent improvement from a "D" to a "C" in rebounding and defense.

Also, of course it's not about having one All star. If you bring a guy like Howard in your talking about making over the roster through multiple moves. It's not like you trade for a guy like that and stand pat. I don't think anybody was even suggesting that.

At any rate, this is not even a realistic scenario anyway.

And therein lies the bottom line. Orlando is not about to trade the best Center in the league to the Suns.

And the Suns are not about to mortgage the ranch to bring him in. 'Sort of a junior version of the Heat leaving themselves mediocre at two positions after adding James and Bosh.

That is part of why I am very pleased with Gortat as our Center, to build a team around.

And, as I have posted alot, why I am pi$$ed that his time in the game is not starting head-to-head with opposing Centers.

 

[chickenhead]

I guess I just assume that Gortat is playing his way into the starting position, that Lopez will be the backup next year and a traded expiring contract the year after. But I've assumed a lot of things...

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm sure a lot of us agree with you, but I just don't see the Suns moving Frye with his recent improvement from a "D" to a "C" in rebounding and defense.

What I'm looking for does not really involve disrupting what Frye is already doing. Frye would remain at PF. A good young forward/ center could backup both Frye and Gortat. Lopez and Warrick would be spot players. Certainly finding that player would not be that easy but I'm sure there are some prospects out there. This player need not be a star, just better than Lopez and Warrick who can play physical.

 

[Bufalay]

If Phil Jackson can turn Kobe from being a selfish jack hole into a better team player than it can happen to Howard.

Yes, but it seems very unlikely that Phil Jackson will be able to accomplish this.

 

[BC867]

What I'm looking for does not really involve disrupting what Frye is already doing. Frye would remain at PF. A good young forward/ center could backup both Frye and Gortat. Lopez and Warrick would be spot players. Certainly finding that player would not be that easy but I'm sure there are some prospects out there. This player need not be a star, just better than Lopez and Warrick who can play physical.

'Sounds good and, hopefully, within the realm of the mentality of our Front Office.

But it would be good for all concerned to trade both Lopez and Warrick rather than demote them to #11 and #12.

I wonder if there a team (or teams) who would be willing to pick up either one or both, knowing of their deficiencies in playing defense?

Hmmm, they could always call (212) 465-6471

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...............that's the NY Knicks business office.