GM Blanks out

[JCSunsfan]

Can we all agree to stop talking about how many picks we have? Not ragging on you specifically, but what's the hit rate on 2nd rounders? 10%?

If we get any value out of a 2nd rounder with our FO, it'll be a gigantic upset.

Regarding Jackson, I'd give him a shot. Look at what we've been doing instead and consider the kinds of people that would be interested in working for Sarver.

We're getting punked by Mike Freaking Brown these days...not good.

OK. We have six first round picks over the next three years. We have our own plus 2 Lakers picks and a Minny pick. That does not include second rounders which have minimal value.

If Sarver was smart, he would go all out for Jackson. The return financially would be worth it. It would add instant credibility for free agency and he would be the face of the franchise and would take the heat off of Sarver.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

OK. We have six first round picks over the next three years. We have our own plus 2 Lakers picks and a Minny pick. That does not include second rounders which have minimal value.

If Sarver was smart, he would go all out for Jackson. The return financially would be worth it. It would add instant credibility for free agency and he would be the face of the franchise and would take the heat off of Sarver.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

Considering what our options are, I'd be willing to give PJ a shot.

 

[Superbone]

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

 

[elindholm]

I agree that Jackson would provide short-term credibility, but I have serious doubts as to whether he'd be good for the job. The only thing he's demonstrated himself good at is teaching the Triangle to future Hall-of-Famers. That's really not a relevant qualification for what the Suns need.

 

[slinslin]

I agree that Jackson would provide short-term credibility, but I have serious doubts as to whether he'd be good for the job. The only thing he's demonstrated himself good at is teaching the Triangle to future Hall-of-Famers. That's really not a relevant qualification for what the Suns need.

This and the recent trend is going towards "Moneyball" type of GMs like Daryl Morey.

 

[carey]

I agree that Jackson would provide short-term credibility, but I have serious doubts as to whether he'd be good for the job. The only thing he's demonstrated himself good at is teaching the Triangle to future Hall-of-Famers. That's really not a relevant qualification for what the Suns need.

Thank YOU.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I agree that Jackson would provide short-term credibility, but I have serious doubts as to whether he'd be good for the job. The only thing he's demonstrated himself good at is teaching the Triangle to future Hall-of-Famers. That's really not a relevant qualification for what the Suns need.

Really? Is that all you think the Jackson has accomplished? He does have 16 rings.

 

[SirStefan32]

Really? Is that all you think the Jackson has accomplished? He does have 16 rings.

Right, with Superstars running the triangle. Either way, nobody is questioning that Phil is a good coach- we are questioning whether winning multiple rings with multiple superstars running the triangle qualifies him to be a good GM.

I am not sure either way, but I would much rather have Presti's assistant (Weaver) or former Indiana GM (Morway) since they actually have an outstanding record. Yes, I realize Weaver has not been a GM before, but he's been working alongside the best GM in the league for a few years.

 

[Gaddabout]

Really? Is that all you think the Jackson has accomplished? He does have 16 rings.

McDonald's is the most successful restaurant in the history of commerce. I wouldn't want them catering my wedding, though.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Really? Is that all you think the Jackson has accomplished? He does have 16 rings.

I do think there's a reason Phil has never been willing to take over anything less than a championship level team. I don't think you can dismiss what he does once he gets that talent but still, I don't know how it would translate to a true building situation. Regardless though, if Phil were 20 years younger I'd consider this a gamble worth taking. He would grant us instant credibility but he's an old 67 and that's an odd age to begin a new career. I'd have little confidence that he would stay with us long enough to make a difference.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

McDonald's is the most successful restaurant in the history of commerce. I wouldn't want them catering my wedding, though.

Wow, talk about a completely misguided analogy. Phil Jackson is McDonalds and the Suns are your wedding? Sounds like you got them swapped.

 

[Chaplin]

Right, with Superstars running the triangle. Either way, nobody is questioning that Phil is a good coach- we are questioning whether winning multiple rings with multiple superstars running the triangle qualifies him to be a good GM.

I am not sure either way, but I would much rather have Presti's assistant (Weaver) or former Indiana GM (Morway) since they actually have an outstanding record. Yes, I realize Weaver has not been a GM before, but he's been working alongside the best GM in the league for a few years.

The frontrunner right now is the Assistant GM from the Bucks. What in your mind makes him a better choice than Phil Jackson?

 

[Superbone]

He would grant us instant credibility but he's an old 67 and that's an odd age to begin a new career.

So it would be better next year when he's 68?

(That would be an even age to begin a new career.)

 

[AzStevenCal]

So it would be better next year when he's 68?

(That would be an even age to begin a new career.)

Cute. I was going to give you a 2 out of 5 but since it made me smile, I upgraded you to cute. Probably a first for you, right?

Steve

 

[slinslin]

The frontrunner right now is the Assistant GM from the Bucks. What in your mind makes him a better choice than Phil Jackson?

Well according to some here the fact that he has been an assistant GM.

That said I can't remember the last time the Bucks made a good move whether it was draft, trade or FA.

- Traded for Monta Ellis? Fail
- drafted Henson? Looks bust
- traded away their best young player Tobias Harris?

I guess drafting Larry Sanders was pretty good.

 

[SirStefan32]

The frontrunner right now is the Assistant GM from the Bucks. What in your mind makes him a better choice than Phil Jackson?

Who said that he is the leading candidate/ frontrunner? That's a huge assumption to make. Either way, the point is that Jackson is a complete unknown when it comes to being a GM.

 

[Griffin]

Who said that he is the leading candidate/ frontrunner?

Per Coro:

paulcoro: @sunsgeek Bucks assistant GM Jeff Weltman and former Pacers GM David Morway seem to be top candidates.

Never heard of any of these guys until this week. But then again, why would I. Obviously the Suns aren't looking to spend on someone more experienced.

 

[SirStefan32]

Per Coro:

Never heard of any of these guys until this week. But then again, why would I. Obviously the Suns aren't looking to spend on someone more experienced.

Ok, that's a bit different than "Weltman is the front-runner."

He was the runner-up when they hired Blanks. Morway sounds like a better choice. He actually did an outstanding job in Indiana, but did not get along with Larry Bird.

 

[elindholm]

Really? Is that all you think the Jackson has accomplished? He does have 16 rings.

I thought it was 11 as a coach, so 5 as a player? Really? I'm surprised it's that many.

But in any case, there's no other coach who has had the luxury of coaching Jordan, Pippen, O'Neal, and Bryant all through their primes. If it's a road race and you're in a Ferrari while everyone else is in a Prius, you're going go win, but that doesn't make you a great driver. So it really isn't fair to conclude that he has any special coaching skill, and there's certainly no evidence supporting that he'd be an effective GM for a rebuilding team. Aside from the credibility angle, there's no reason to prefer him over any of the other dozens of names floating around out there -- including Barkley, for that matter.

 

[SirStefan32]

I am not sure what Morway's previous position entailed, but I seem to remember he did a lot with scouting, draft prep, etc. Either way, if we only look at what he did as a GM- it's pretty damn impressive:

Draft:
George 2010
Hansbrough 2009
Hibbert 2008

Free Agency:
David West

Trades
Collison
Barbosa
Hill

Their financial situation seems to be pretty damn good, and their draft history before 2008 was good as well (I do believe he was involved in scouting/ drafting) before he was a GM.

I am officially sold on this guy- hire Morway!

EDIT:
Well... Hibbert was technically drafted by Toronto, but immediately traded.

EDIT 2:

Interesting article. Sounds like Morway was a bit too greedy trying to deal with Memphis.
http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersins...p-is-the-reason-bird-wants-to-replace-morway/

 

[Superbone]

Cute. I was going to give you a 2 out of 5 but since it made me smile, I upgraded you to cute. Probably a first for you, right?

Steve

I'll take it!

 

[BC867]

I thought it was 11 as a coach, so 5 as a player? Really? I'm surprised it's that many.

But in any case, there's no other coach who has had the luxury of coaching Jordan, Pippen, O'Neal, and Bryant all through their primes. If it's a road race and you're in a Ferrari while everyone else is in a Prius, you're going go win, but that doesn't make you a great driver. So it really isn't fair to conclude that he has any special coaching skill, and there's certainly no evidence supporting that he'd be an effective GM for a rebuilding team. Aside from the credibility angle, there's no reason to prefer him over any of the other dozens of names floating around out there -- including Barkley, for that matter.

Phil Jackson, as Pat Riley and Red Auerbach, had the ability to successfully lead teams of All-Stars. That shouldn't be taken lightly.

When the Suns have a team of All-Stars, we should give him a call. Unfortunately, with the exception of Goran Dragic, we have a team of No-Stars.

 

[Errntknght]

Phil Jackson has thirteen rings, two as a player. (He recently tweeted to that effect, per Katie C.)

Eric,

Phil Jackson, as Pat Riley and Red Auerbach, had the ability to successfully lead teams of All-Stars. That shouldn't be taken lightly.

Interesting that you lump PJ with those two because both of them went on to become excellent GM's... sort undercuts your basic argument.

I didn't follow Riley's or PJ's teams but I did Auerbach's and I don't think anyone would disagree that he was very much the architect of the Celtic teams before he was officially the GM... in fact, I don't think they had GMs who were responsible for assembling teams back in those days. Red Holzman (contempory of Auerback) was regarded as the architect of the Knicks and whenever the teams were discussed, the coaches were talked about as though they put the teams together. Actually, the first GM I recall hearing about was Auerbach, after he turned the coaching duties over to Bill Russell.

When there were discussions about PGs for the Bulls was it said that Jerry Krause didn't like traditional NBA PGs? No, PJ was the one that understood that such did not have a role in the triangle offense.

When Jackson moved to the Lakers was the talk in basketball circles about how he was blessed to get Shaq? No, the talk was about what a bad fit Shaq was for the triangle offense - you might recall that the Bulls typically rotated a number of lesser centers through that slot. It was Phil who assured everyone that Shaq would fit it perfectly.

It was only those widespread discussions that I read about but in watching his teams I was always impressed with the way he took players on the downhill side of their careers and made them useful pieces on his teams. Remember Ron Harper? He was the first one I remember because I wondered what in the devil Phil had in mind for him.

So, yeah, Phil has had great players to coach but he was a master at recognizing the talents in all kinds of players that would be valuable to his teams.

Similarly, in retrospect, you could say that Auerbach rode to fame on the coattails of his all-star players but at the time it looked more like it was Red finding the right role for the guy, allowing him to blossom as an all star.

 

[BC867]

Red Holzman (contempory of Auerback) was regarded as the architect of the Knicks and whenever the teams were discussed, the coaches were talked about as though they put the teams together.

'Interesting that you mentioned Red Holzman as well. His Knicks teams (with their only two Championships in '69-70 and '72-73) were called the most intelligent NBA teams ever.

With Willis Reed, Dave DeBusschere (who had been the youngest MLB (player)manager ever), Rhodes Scholar Senator Bill Bradley, Walt "Clyde" Frazier and Dick Barnett, followed by Earl "The Pearl" Monroe.

An ideal GM puts together a team that matches the strengths of his Head Coach. Or hires a Head Coach whose skills match the roster. Which is why Mike D'Antoni and his SSOL/seven man rotation is so out of place on the Lakers.

Although Paul Westhead later won one of our two Phoenix Mercury WNBA championships, he was so inept coaching the super-star Lakers team. Which was partially why I said, "Phil Jackson, as Pat Riley and Red Auerbach, had the ability to successfully lead teams of All-Stars. That shouldn't be taken lightly." But it doesn't necessarily mean that Phil Jackson would be a successful General Manager.

 

[Errntknght]

BC,

With Willis Reed, Dave DeBusschere (who had been the youngest MLB (player)manager ever), Rhodes Scholar Senator Bill Bradley, Walt "Clyde" Frazier and Dick Barnett, followed by Earl "The Pearl" Monroe.

You forgot to mention one, not insignificant, member of that team - a lanky and not too athletic forward named Phil Jackson. He wasn't considered to have the basketball IQ of the illustrious Debusshure and Bradley, but maybe we all just missed it - then.

It does not automatically follow that Phil would be a great GM and there is one thing that would concern me - if you weren't thinking of employing a triangle offense you might not get as good a performance from him as you would if you were. Having to defend against traditional NBA offenses virtually every game he had to understand it quite well but his ability to select just the right guys for something other than the triangle might be a bit lacking.