Goran Dragic plans to test free agency; blames struggles on 3 PG system

Suns_fan69

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elindholm

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Who can really tell how difficult a schedule is 15 games into the season?

For what it's worth, Sagarin's numerical system says that the Suns have had the 17th most difficult schedule so far. The system puts them at #10 in the league -- and #9 in the Western Conference. Sounds familiar?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/sagarin/2015/rating/

Because of conference disparity, the 17th most difficult schedule in the league is (according to those numbers) only the 11th most difficult (i.e. 5th easiest) in the Western Conference, and the easiest faced by any team in the Pacific Division.
 

Superbone

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Phoenix has lost to every single team that has a winning record except for the Spurs game from the 2nd game.

The Warriors had a winning record. That's just the first one that comes to mind off the top of my head.
 
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sunsfan88

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The Warriors had a winning record. That's just the first one that comes to mind off the top of my head.

Whoops my bad, yea that game as well. Even though iirc Thompson didn't play in that one.
 

BC867

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Steve, along with Eric, you are my favorite poster here, but your sudden infatuation with Frye and stretch fours in general is starting to rival BC's love of a traditional Center alongside a traditional PF (which I agree with.)

Most of your post are about Frye or stretch fours.
Consider this clarification about Frye as a stretch-4. He was not only our starting Power Forward. He was also our backup -- and closing -- Center.

The result was, with the game on the line, we had a stretch-5 and a non-power Power Forward at the 5 and 4 positions.

I would also draw a distinction between a stretch-4 who is capable of hitting 3's as well as the pick & roll from how Frye played the position as a 4 or 5. Camped out 23 feet from the basket from the start of the offensive set to the end. Just like a Guard.

And, my dislike of the lack of a traditional Center alongside a traditional Power Forward goes back 30 years when Alvan Adams stationed himself on offense at the top of the key (before the 3-point shot ) as a Center.


If Bledsoe and IT are staying, then Green easily. If one of them goes, you gotta go with Dragic.
I agree with you about Green. I think I reacted the same in a previous post. Every good team needs a dynamic instant-offense player, especially a 2-3 Wing. Whereas I don't personally agree about Goran being the odd man out, apparently the Suns have already made that decision.
 

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So. 10-6 is not bad. Len is looking good. And yet the negativity is overwhelming. I assume that the reason is that Goran and IT complained a bit. Wow.
 

AzStevenCal

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So. 10-6 is not bad. Len is looking good. And yet the negativity is overwhelming. I assume that the reason is that Goran and IT complained a bit. Wow.

I don't even think Goran was actually complaining, just describing the situation. I'm less sure about it with IT but even there, at worst, it wasn't much. I think much of Goran's frustration is that he can't do what he's used to doing regardless of why. But still, we look like a much better team than we did playing the Lakers and I don't think we are close to hitting our stride.

Steve
 

BC867

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I don't even think Goran was actually complaining, just describing the situation. I'm less sure about it with IT but even there, at worst, it wasn't much. I think much of Goran's frustration is that he can't do what he's used to doing regardless of why. But still, we look like a much better team than we did playing the Lakers and I don't think we are close to hitting our stride.

Steve
Regardless of why? Wow, that's blowing off the guy who carried the Suns last season, especially while Bledsoe was missing half of it.

Granted, this is here and now. I just think Dragic deserves more of our loyalty. Sadly, it seems like it is too late for that.

Goran, this Suns fan appreciates your coming back and what you meant to us in the wake of Steve Nash's declining health and exodus to L.A.

OK, I am ready to view the Suns future moves in terms of what will take us to the next step.
 

AzStevenCal

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Regardless of why? Wow, that's blowing off the guy who carried the Suns last season, especially while Bledsoe was missing half of it.

Granted, this is here and now. I just think Dragic deserves more of our loyalty. Sadly, it seems like it is too late for that.

Goran, this Suns fan appreciates your coming back and what you meant to us in the wake of Steve Nash's declining health and exodus to L.A.

OK, I am ready to view the Suns future moves in terms of what will take us to the next step.

No it's not, you've misread or at least misinterpreted my comment. I'm tired and sure the board is tired of me trying to make the case for what I believe is going on with Goran so my "regardless of why" was simply an attempt to avoid that conversation again. Regardless of why he's struggling (IOW absence of Frye, exhaustion, IT, Bledsoe, Hornacek etc.), I believe he is frustrated that he isn't able to perform to his usual level.

Steve
 

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In keeping with the negativity of the average Suns fan, I'd just like to say...

Happy Thanksgiving, jerks.


















:biglaugh:
 

JCSunsfan

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We have four pg's and they aren't all playing at all NBA level. They all want more minutes. There is nothing to be thankful for.


Have a sarcastic Black Friday all.
 

Errntknght

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I respect the long and well thought out post and apologize for ignoring the rest of the argument but I feel like the entire premise comes apart by thinking any of them would be happy playing 16 minutes a game. They'd be absolutely furious. Especially Goran who is playing for a contract, it wouldn't matter if the team was winning, he would feel like he is getting screwed... and rightfully so.

I don't think it was a coincidence that Bledsoe and Dragic both had really really strong games tonight while Thomas was out. Its the most the rotations have come to being like last season and guys were clearly more comfortable.

I don't think that means we should immediately dump Thomas, but I do think that Goran and Eric are far more important to the team than he is and they need to be allowed to play a regular rotation of minutes without having to worry about getting benched for a half because Thomas just torched some backups in the 2nd quarter.

But all in all... the team is 10-6, despite all the belly aching (and now the doubters claiming the scalps) the guards have easily been the strength of the team and absolutely are among the best back courts in the league... despite some individual inconsistency. The guys are starting to play better, Eric very much so. Hopefully things keep trending the way they are.

I think Goran was pretty much screwed as soon as we caved and gave Bledsoe 14mil/annum. 'Screwed' is relative though because he'll likely get 10 mil, so he will be richer and I'm not sure he'd have wound up with more if we'd never taken Eric on board.

Its going to be interesting to see what Hornacek is going to do... he still likes his idea of dual point guards but I don't see it being of particular value beyond them simply being good players. They don't work especially well together nor do they complement each other so the sum is not greater than the parts - I expected Jeff would do much more in getting them to amplify each other's value and I thought they'd do it on their own if he didn't. Almost zero progress on that front.

I imagine Jeff will tweak IT's role and he'll eventually start Len which might combine to make us a bit better than last year. Maybe tweak the D a bit. Basically we'll be sitting on our hands waiting for Len to progress.

Jeff is a good coach in the sense that he gets the team to win more games than you'd expect given our basic stats. The same was true last year - we were and are very middle of the road statistically. Did San Antonio 'overachieve' in this way last year? No, they didn't, they were the best team statistically. The year before Miami was the best team statistically. Of course, coaches play a role in bringing out the best of their team which is reflected in their statistics to a great extent. Minnesota last year was an example of a team that won considerably fewer games than their stats suggested they should.
What stats am I talking about? Pretty much across the board - shooting pct, FTA, TO's, Rebounds, Assists, Blks, Steals and others. And defense against all of the above, of course.
Phoenix has to improve their statistics by about ten percent to be in the running. That is a big step for a team, not a small step. For example we increased our stats 9% from '12-13 to '13-14, We also underachieved in '12-13.

Edit: (I didn't get around to making my point but had to break off.)
So in order to make a major step this year, we have to shake things up. One possibility is considerably better defense. Bledsoe is capable of it but he's not going to do it playing 32 minutes a game - he has to conserve himself. Zoran might provide a lift on defense and pairing him with Goran might get better D. from him as well as they have lots of experience playing together. Goodwin is a good defender and if he follows Bled's lead he could help him be disruptive - he's quick and he's fast. He can also contribute on the offensive end - when he get's untracked he can score like Gerald Green. He isn't going to get there by himself but we've never seen what he can do if he has a point guard setting the table for him. In the scheme I proposed Eric will be disposed to do just that. Bled with PJ at the 2 and Mook at 3 gives us solid halfcourt D - and PJ may want to get in on the fun of being disruptive. Going big at the 2 - PJ, Mook, TJ - gives a different look which could have its uses - better D against big 2's and better rebounding.
The options for improving our offensive stats are pretty much Goodwin, TJ and progress from Len. Its not guaranteed and it won't be an easy task but its silly to settle for the status quo, IMO. We can go looking afield but why overlook the possibilities already in hand. However it turns out we have a better handle on what we have and what we have to add.
 
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BC867

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I think Goran was pretty much screwed as soon as we caved and gave Bledsoe 14mil/annum. 'Screwed' is relative though because he'll likely get 10 mil, so he will be richer and I'm not sure he'd have wound up with more if we'd never taken Eric on board.

Its going to be interesting to see what Hornacek is going to do... he still likes his idea of dual point guards but I don't see it being of particular value beyond them simply being good players. They don't work especially well together nor do they complement each other so the sum is not greater than the parts - I expected Jeff would do much more in getting them to amplify each other's value and I thought they'd do it on their own if he didn't. Almost zero progress on that front...
Excellent analysis! I loved when the Suns chose Horny as Head Coach. Cotton was the best coach we ever had and Jeff was his boy (and I mean that in a good way). The spirit of Cotton lived on.

But realistically, Jeff as a player was a tweener -- a Shooting Guard in the body of a Point Guard, both with the Suns and Utah. He is the ideal coach for a 2- or 3-Point Guard system. It is his experience. It is his comfort level.

I don't see any of the changes you suggest (with which I agree completely) happening soon. Some years down the road, just as with D'Antoni, when the system proves to be little more than entertaining, Jeff will move on and the Suns will, hopefully, return to a balanced roster.

Or . . . the Suns will find another coach and another gimmick to go small. Just as they have for the better part of 4 1/2 decades. And continue their mantra of 50-and-fade.
 

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Excellent analysis! I loved when the Suns chose Horny as Head Coach. Cotton was the best coach we ever had and Jeff was his boy (and I mean that in a good way). The spirit of Cotton lived on.



But realistically, Jeff as a player was a tweener -- a Shooting Guard in the body of a Point Guard, both with the Suns and Utah. He is the ideal coach for a 2- or 3-Point Guard system. It is his experience. It is his comfort level.



I don't see any of the changes you suggest (with which I agree completely) happening soon. Some years down the road, just as with D'Antoni, when the system proves to be little more than entertaining, Jeff will move on and the Suns will, hopefully, return to a balanced roster.



Or . . . the Suns will find another coach and another gimmick to go small. Just as they have for the better part of 4 1/2 decades. And continue their mantra of 50-and-fade.


. We play a true 5, 4, and 3 as well as a true pg. The only thing gimmicky about this team is that we play a 6-3 2 guard with the skills of a pg AND that we have another starting quality pg coming off the bench. In fact, the only real things wrong with this team right now are that we have no superstar and we get inconsistent production from the center position.

We start getting 10-10 and 2 from Len and we are contenders. While the WC is very good, there are no dominant teams any more. Miami has broken up, Durant and Westbrook are injured, and the Spurs have to be getting old sometime.
 

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. We play a true 5, 4, and 3 as well as a true pg. The only thing gimmicky about this team is that we play a 6-3 2 guard with the skills of a pg AND that we have another starting quality pg coming off the bench. In fact, the only real things wrong with this team right now are that we have no superstar and we get inconsistent production from the center position.

We start getting 10-10 and 2 from Len and we are contenders. While the WC is very good, there are no dominant teams any more. Miami has broken up, Durant and Westbrook are injured, and the Spurs have to be getting old sometime.

Hate to break it to you but the Spurs are absolutely the class of the league. They've now won 8 of 9 with 6 of those games on the road. The MOV was almost 12 points. They defeated 3 of the top 4 contenders, beating the Warriors by 13 points on the second night of an away BTB. They may not win it all, but they are head and shoulders above everyone else.
 

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. We play a true 5, 4, and 3 as well as a true pg. The only thing gimmicky about this team is that we play a 6-3 2 guard with the skills of a pg AND that we have another starting quality pg coming off the bench. In fact, the only real things wrong with this team right now are that we have no superstar and we get inconsistent production from the center position.
Yup, you're right, that is gimmicky. Three Point Guards (our three best players) competing with each other for playing time and recognition. Every game. Every minute.

Bledsoe settled for us when no other team would sign him. Dragic (who is out of position at Shooting Guard) was demoted from the role in which he won accolades last season. And adding Thomas made it three players competing for the "quarterback" position. Not to mention drafting a fourth Point Guard.

For a moment I thought you were disagreeing when I referred to it as a gimmick. :)
 

BC867

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Part II

. We play a true 5, 4, and 3...
You made me curious about how we look
at Center and Power Forward through our
first 16 games with our 2-headed Center.

N A M E.....POS...MIN...POINTS...BOARDS

Plumlee.......C....23.4......5.6.........6.3....
Len.............C....18.8......6.2.........5.1....

TOTAL.........C....42.2.....11.8.......11.4....

Markieff......PF...30.9.....15.1.........6.4....

Not bad, but needs to be improved upon.
I am surprised that Kieff is averaging only
31 mpg. Is he capable of playing more
without being fatigued? Can he build up?
 

SirStefan32

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I don't think that a two-PG lineup is doomed to fail, but you need one of your PGs to be an ACTUAL PG, and you need the other one to be an actual shooter. Stockton was one of the best PGs in the history of the NBA (if not THE best), and Hornacek was an amazing shooter AND a competent point guard. Neither of our 3 PGs are real PGs. Dragic is probably the closest one, but even he is not an ideal PG. Neither one is a great shooter. Again, Dragic is probably the best shooter out of the group, but even he is not a reliable shooter.

To me, all three of our PGs are the same player. Yes, Dragic is probably the best facilitator and the best shooter, Bledsoe is by far the best defender, Thomas is probably the best pure scorer, but when it's all said that done, they are all basically the same player (with Bledsoe and Dragic being a level slightly above IT). Now, if they all start shooting 40%+ from three, we have less of a problem. If they put Goran in the "lead" PG role, we have less of a problem, but there is no scenario in which there is absolutely no problem. You can not have three players on your roster who are the same or, at the very least, VERY similar.
 

SirStefan32

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You made me curious about how we look
at Center and Power Forward through our
first 16 games with our 2-headed Center.

N A M E.....POS...MIN...POINTS...BOARDS

Plumlee.......C....23.4......5.6.........6.3....
Len.............C....18.8......6.2.........5.1....

TOTAL.........C....42.2.....11.8.......11.4....

Markieff......PF...30.9.....15.1.........6.4....

Not bad, but needs to be improved upon.
I am surprised that Kieff is averaging only
31 mpg. Is he capable of playing more
without being fatigued? Can he build up?

BC, you know I am of the same mindset as you when it comes to being undersized, but I am OK with Tucker getting some PF minutes as long as Len is on the floor. If you have a real Center on the floor, you PF can be a little undersized. Especially with Tucker who is built like a PF and can probably do a better job defending the low post (especially denying the ball or denying the deep positioning) than Tolliver, Marcus or even Markieff.He is also enough of a threat from the outside that he can spread the floor a bit.

I am also OK with no Center for a few minutes per game, especially if the other team isn't playing one.

I would argue that even if the Suns had another real PF, because of the PG situation spilling over into the next position, there is just no time for that person to play. IT, Bled, and Goran are taking almost all the PG and SG minutes, which moves Green to SF. That means that either Tucker or Marcus have to move to 4. This is a gigantic mess that affects every single position. :sad:
 

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I don't think that a two-PG lineup is doomed to fail, but you need one of your PGs to be an ACTUAL PG, and you need the other one to be an actual shooter. Stockton was one of the best PGs in the history of the NBA (if not THE best), and Hornacek was an amazing shooter AND a competent point guard. Neither of our 3 PGs are real PGs. Dragic is probably the closest one, but even he is not an ideal PG. Neither one is a great shooter. Again, Dragic is probably the best shooter out of the group, but even he is not a reliable shooter.

To me, all three of our PGs are the same player. Yes, Dragic is probably the best facilitator and the best shooter, Bledsoe is by far the best defender, Thomas is probably the best pure scorer, but when it's all said that done, they are all basically the same player (with Bledsoe and Dragic being a level slightly above IT). Now, if they all start shooting 40%+ from three, we have less of a problem. If they put Goran in the "lead" PG role, we have less of a problem, but there is no scenario in which there is absolutely no problem. You can not have three players on your roster who are the same or, at the very least, VERY similar.

agreed with all of this.
 

BC867

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If they put Goran in the "lead" PG role, we have less of a problem, but there is no scenario in which there is absolutely no problem. You can not have three players on your roster who are the same or, at the very least, VERY similar.

That leaves a conundrum for the Suns. If they realize and act on what you said, who is the odd man out?

As important as defense is at the PG position, running the whole team on offense is a larger role. And I have been in agreement that Goran is the best choice. If the Suns haven't already burned bridges with him.

So, which of the remaining two has to go in order to turn a negative situation into a positive? I have already suggested Bledsoe. How about a delayed sign-and-trade?

Dragic & IT covering the Point, with Goran spending some time at the "2", sounds like the best arrangement. And a good way to keep him from wearing down.

It would also allow Ennis to receive the exposure he needs as a draft pick-3rd Point Guard.

I wonder if there is anyone in the Suns hierarchy who feels the same way. Or even having three players on the roster who are so similar.
 

SirStefan32

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That leaves a conundrum for the Suns. If they realize and act on what you said, who is the odd man out?

As important as defense is at the PG position, running the whole team on offense is a larger role. And I have been in agreement that Goran is the best choice. If the Suns haven't already burned bridges with him.

So, which of the remaining two has to go in order to turn a negative situation into a positive? I have already suggested Bledsoe. How about a delayed sign-and-trade?

Dragic & IT covering the Point, with Goran spending some time at the "2", sounds like the best arrangement. And a good way to keep him from wearing down.

It would also allow Ennis to receive the exposure he needs as a draft pick-3rd Point Guard.

I wonder if there is anyone in the Suns hierarchy who feels the same way. Or even having three players on the roster who are so similar.

Great question!

I think it would largely depend on who you can trade and what kind of value you can get in return. I agree that Goran is the best PG on the team, and out of the three PGs, he is also the best SG, and he seems to love the city and the organization, so he is the logical choice to be the one who stays.
He also has a great relationship with Sarver, and keeping the big boss happy is always a good thing.

As far as the other two goes... Bledsoe is the better player because he is such a good defender, and he is not quite as undersized as Isaiah is. He also has a bigger ego, and makes a lot more money. I am also not convinced he actually likes it here. He also has a nasty history of injuries.

I agree with your assessment. Dragic should stay, along with IT, but IT becomes the sixth man.

having said that, if Portland shows up asking for a Dragic, Morris twins for LMA trade, the hell with our assessment- then Dragic goes.
 
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