Goran Dragic plans to test free agency; blames struggles on 3 PG system

[WildBB]

This team is in need of a Demarcus Cousins.

Dragic and Kief are the other two I'd build around.

That'd be our big 3.

Last Nuggs game was an eye opener preview of the playoffs

 

[AzStevenCal]

This team is in need of a Demarcus Cousins.

Dragic and Kief are the other two I'd build around.

That'd be our big 3.

Last Nuggs game was an eye opener preview of the playoffs

I'm curious, what did you learn from it that you didn't already know? I think we already knew we were not a contender and that our lack of balance would be a problem in the playoffs and playoff race. I'm not really sure there was another lesson there but maybe I missed something.

Cousins is talented and he's got some talent around him too. Right now, they are reaching for lofty heights. We're struggling by all measures. And yet, we have roughly the same record as the Kings. I know I'm in the minority but I still think it's too early to bury this team. Bledsoe, despite his turnover struggles and a bad game in Denver has actually been playing pretty well for the past few weeks. If Goran can find his shot this team will start looking a lot better.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Bledsoe, despite his turnover struggles and a bad game in Denver has actually been playing pretty well for the past few weeks. If Goran can find his shot this team will start looking a lot better.

I'm with you, Steve. I decided earlier today to ATI -- accept the inevitable. ***

Whether this is the roster that takes us through the season or some changes are made, the result will probably be the same. The same that it has always been.

Put on a show during the regular season and, if we're lucky, make an appearance in the playoffs.

Owned by a banker, it is all about one thing . . . revenue. We are never going to have sellouts. Put enough people in the seats to collect an acceptable revenue.

Whether the principal owner was Richard Bloch or Jerry Colangelo or Robert Sarver, the philosophy has been the same. And the results have been the same.

*** Gee, I wonder how long I can remain at peace with ATI.

 

[Superbone]

I'm with you, Steve. I decided earlier today to ATI -- accept the inevitable. ***

Whether this is the roster that takes us through the season or some changes are made, the result will probably be the same. The same that it has always been.

Put on a show during the regular season and, if we're lucky, make an appearance in the playoffs.

Owned by a banker, it is all about one thing . . . revenue. We are never going to have sellouts. Put enough people in the seats to collect an acceptable revenue.

Whether the principal owner was Richard Bloch or Jerry Colangelo or Robert Sarver, the philosophy has been the same. And the results have been the same.

*** Gee, I wonder how long I can remain at peace with ATI.

Maybe you should go back to rooting for the Knicks. They run a traditional lineup. However, they haven't won a championship since the early 70s.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm with you, Steve. I decided earlier today to ATI -- accept the inevitable. ***

Whether this is the roster that takes us through the season or some changes are made, the result will probably be the same. The same that it has always been.

Put on a show during the regular season and, if we're lucky, make an appearance in the playoffs.

Owned by a banker, it is all about one thing . . . revenue. We are never going to have sellouts. Put enough people in the seats to collect an acceptable revenue.

Whether the principal owner was Richard Bloch or Jerry Colangelo or Robert Sarver, the philosophy has been the same. And the results have been the same.

*** Gee, I wonder how long I can remain at peace with ATI.

I thought you didn't like sarcasm? And BTW, no. You are not with me in any sense of the word here. I don't believe even for a second that Colangelo wasn't doing his best to win a championship. And I don't believe that Sarver is interested in being just a pretty team that never challenges for the championship.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm with you, Steve. I decided earlier today to ATI -- accept the inevitable. ***

Whether this is the roster that takes us through the season or some changes are made, the result will probably be the same. The same that it has always been.

Put on a show during the regular season and, if we're lucky, make an appearance in the playoffs.

Owned by a banker, it is all about one thing . . . revenue. We are never going to have sellouts. Put enough people in the seats to collect an acceptable revenue.

Whether the principal owner was Richard Bloch or Jerry Colangelo or Robert Sarver, the philosophy has been the same. And the results have been the same.

*** Gee, I wonder how long I can remain at peace with ATI.

This post is a crock of ****. Colangelo racked up about 200 million in debts while trying to get the Suns a ring.

And "if we're lucky" make an apperance in the playoffs? The Suns have been to the playoffs more than all but a couple of teams since they entered the league.

Its ridiculous how some people act like we're the Hawks or some trash franchise. The Suns have not managed to win a title... its true, but they have been among the most consistently competitive teams for virtually all of the nearly 5 decade run and I'd rather be a fan of a team like this than rooting for some team that stumbled into one title or two ages ago but outside of that has sucked... like the Bucks or Knicks or Sixers or any other number of teams who TRULY have put the garbage out there you accuse the Suns of peddling.

 

[Chaz]

I came into the year thinking they could win about 53 games. They probably have a ceiling of about 6th in the west if things fall right but will be doing pretty well to get into the top 8. In short a small improvement over last seasons surprising success. I have seen nothing to change that outlook. This is still a very young and inexperienced team and coach. They are in the second year of a rebuild and one year removed from one of the worst seasons in Suns history.

It is going to take some time to build this team up and for the players to get more experience together.
I see nothing that is outside my expectation entering the season and I don't think some jockeying for minutes in the first 15 games is any reason to start trading players away. I think that if a deal comes along that they think improves the team they will make the trade.

 

[BC867]

Maybe you should go back to rooting for the Knicks. They run a traditional lineup. However, they haven't won a championship since the early 70s.

Seriously, I root for my hometown team. And Phoenix has been my hometown for over 36 years.

Which is why I am disappointed that, in over 4 1/2 decades, we've never risen to the top.

Certainly the Knicks did during a magical spell of four years and, as you said, that was a long time ago.

So what does it take to rise to the top? As has been pointed out in this thread, our Suns have established a long pattern of being good, but not good enough to put it all together.

And now, what have we done lately? Between D'Antoni's SSOL-no defense-wear out your starters and Jeff's Point Guard heavy team, we're still not balanced enough to even think about putting it all together.

Remember, "fan" is short for "fanatic".

 

[95pro]

With only one championship to go around, I'm sure a lot of franchises and fans are disappointed. Either way, being one of the most successful franchises or having history to look back on, the disappointment is there. I'd rather take being a successful franchise than having to rely on the market size to get people to fill the arena.
LA and NY are lucky they have the market size to keep butts in the seats. Cause lately they've sucked.

 

[sunsfan88]

For those Frye fans, here's some of the Magic fans voicing their opinion on Frye (courtesty of RealGM)

mityamag wrote:
Frye is the REAL and HUGE problem to me. He looks sooooooo slow, fat and old.... I definitely hope for the fast Aaron recovery

Orlwillbeback wrote:
I wanted us to sign him but i never imagined he would be this bad a defender and rebounder!

GameOver25 wrote:
There's no way this team is going to build chemistry and an identity with the way Frye plays defense.

Jameerthefear wrote:
I hated the Frye trade when it happened and I hate it even more now.

SOUL wrote:
channing frye. ugh. you're bad dude. get a hand up. stop giving good jumpshooters like 3 feet of room to work with. if they beat you, have faith somebody might be behind you. you're not good enough to be trying to defend 3 players let alone 1. you probably single handedly give up 30+ points a game and that's bad.

SOUL wrote:
frye should wear the princess backpack he bought for elfrid

woosah wrote:
ORLMagicGirl15 wrote:
I'm looking forward to our trade come Dec. 15th.

Lol there's a lot more of that gold but that is just a taste ^^.

Looks like unlike Suns fans who only hated him after a year/more, Magic fans hate him 1 month into the season

 

[Mainstreet]

I missed the Suns game tonight due to family. Did anyone watch the game which the Suns lost 93-90 to the Magic? It looks like the Suns took the first two quarters of the game off. It's beginning to look more and more like the Suns may be having chemistry problems. Channing Frye only scored 3 points so I doubt he was a difference maker for the Magic.

 

[SirStefan32]

I missed the Suns game tonight due to family. Did anyone watch the game which the Suns lost 93-90 to the Magic? It looks like the Suns took the first two quarters of the game off. It's beginning to look more and more like the Suns may be having chemistry problems. Channing Frye only scored 3 points so I doubt he was a difference maker for the Magic.

They just couldn't buy a bucket for a while. Bledsoe was his usual selfish self, Dragic played well at the beginning, but took 2nd and 3rd quarter off, Green and Len were useless (other than one amazing play by Green), and Goran and Bledsoe were having a competition (who can turn the ball over more).

 

[BC867]

They just couldn't buy a bucket for a while. Bledsoe was his usual selfish self, Dragic played well at the beginning, but took 2nd and 3rd quarter off, Green and Len were useless (other than one amazing play by Green), and Goran and Bledsoe were having a competition (who can turn the ball over more).

I was watching something more uplifting. The 50th anniversary celebration of the career of Peter, Paul & Mary on PBS.

But I did catch the Suns 4th quarter. In the words of Bob Dylan:

Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head
Pretending he just doesn't see?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

 

[elindholm]

They just couldn't buy a bucket for a while. Bledsoe was his usual selfish self, Dragic played well at the beginning, but took 2nd and 3rd quarter off, Green and Len were useless (other than one amazing play by Green), and Goran and Bledsoe were having a competition (who can turn the ball over more).

My favorite sequence was when Green's highlight-reel dunk was immediately followed by Bledsoe committing two stupid turnovers and then throwing up a contested three. Talk about a momentum-killer. I feel sorry for everyone involved with this organization.

 

[elindholm]

Oh, and by the way, it was the Magic's first road win against a Western Conference opponent in almost two years.

 

[Mainstreet]

They just couldn't buy a bucket for a while. Bledsoe was his usual selfish self, Dragic played well at the beginning, but took 2nd and 3rd quarter off, Green and Len were useless (other than one amazing play by Green), and Goran and Bledsoe were having a competition (who can turn the ball over more).

Thanks for the recap. I think either Dragic or Bledsoe will need to be traded to establish some leadership for the team. Too many cooks so to speak. What magic happened last season to this combination seems to have disappeared this season. Maybe a light will suddenly come on and things will change but I'm beginning to doubt it. I can't help but wonder if Dragic is deferring leadership to Bledsoe because of his huge off season contract.

 

[elindholm]

I'm not even sure anymore that the two-PG set, specifically, is the problem. I think it is more that Dragic and Bledsoe are supposed to be the team's two best players and yet they have zero chemistry together. In any play that one of them dominates, you can pretty well bet that the other one will be standing around doing nothing.

 

[SirStefan32]

Thanks for the recap. I think either Dragic or Bledsoe will need to be traded to establish some leadership for the team. Too many cooks so to speak. What magic happened last season to this combination seems to have disappeared this season. Maybe a light will suddenly come on and things will change but I'm beginning to doubt it. I can't help but wonder if Dragic is deferring leadership to Bledsoe because of his huge off season contract.

He was deferring to him last season as well, so I don't think Eric's contract is the reason.

I hate to say this, as I have become a huge Dragic fan over the last few years, but I just don't think Dragic is confrontational enough to be a real leader. I appreciate the fact he is not a Kobe-style douche, but a real leader need to be more assertive, and simply put- assume leadership. As a leader, sometimes you have to be confrontational, and I don't think Dragic has it in him.

To clarify, I am not arguing the Suns should trade Dragic over Bledsoe (which they will probably do anyway) but I am just saying that Dragic is not a true leader. I'd still take him over Bledsoe any day of the week, but I am somewhat disappointed in his lack of leadership.

Disclaimer:
I am assuming Dragic has not been given direction to yield to Bledsoe by the Coach and the management. If he was indeed given that direction, then my analysis is flawed.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm not even sure anymore that the two-PG set, specifically, is the problem. I think it is more that Dragic and Bledsoe are supposed to be the team's two best players and yet they have zero chemistry together. In any play that one of them dominates, you can pretty well bet that the other one will be standing around doing nothing.

Absolutely! But you and I, along with one more person (I can never remember who it was), recognized that was going to be the case before they ever played one minute together. I cannot understand why McD/Babby/Sarver/Hornacek cannot recognize that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not even sure anymore that the two-PG set, specifically, is the problem. I think it is more that Dragic and Bledsoe are supposed to be the team's two best players and yet they have zero chemistry together. In any play that one of them dominates, you can pretty well bet that the other one will be standing around doing nothing.

Absolutely! But you and I, along with one more person (I can never remember who it was), recognized that was going to be the case before they ever played one minute together. I cannot understand why McD/Babby/Sarver/Hornacek cannot recognize that.

But everybody did recognize it. Last year, the only real value either had to the other, while both shared the court, was as a decoy. But that was enough and this year it isn't working. Surprise, surprise, I'm still convinced that it's a spacing problem but whatever it is, it's no longer working. Yet. I only say "yet" because I choose to be optimistic. I certainly don't see a solution in sight.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

But everybody did recognize it. Last year, the only real value either had to the other, while both shared the court, was as a decoy. But that was enough and this year it isn't working. Surprise, surprise, I'm still convinced that it's a spacing problem but whatever it is, it's no longer working. Yet. I only say "yet" because I choose to be optimistic. I certainly don't see a solution in sight.

Steve

I recall the two or three of us taking a lot of crap from the rest of the board for daring suggest that Bledsoe/ Dragic pairing is not ideal. It really wasn't until recently that people started to jump off the Bledsoe/ Dragic bandwagon. In all fairness, BC, and a couple of others were off the bandwagon before the real season started, but for the most part, this board was all about Bledsoe/ Dragic pairing.
There is something to the spacing argument you keep repeating in every post, but in my opinion, it goes far beyond that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I recall the two or three of us taking a lot of crap from the rest of the board for daring suggest that Bledsoe/ Dragic pairing is not ideal. It really wasn't until recently that people started to jump off the Bledsoe/ Dragic bandwagon. In all fairness, BC, and a couple of others were off the bandwagon before the real season started, but for the most part, this board was all about Bledsoe/ Dragic pairing.
There is something to the spacing argument you keep repeating in every post, but in my opinion, it goes far beyond that.

I agree with this but I was referring to one specific aspect of this conversation. You were against the idea of pairing two point guards from the beginning and many of us disagreed with you and the others that felt that way. But IMO, our two combo guards did work last year. They didn't exactly make each other better which became obvious as the season progressed but we still won at a very high clip when the two were healthy.

Last year the only benefit that came from the pairing was as decoys. And I'll admit, I really expected them to grow into something special this season. But instead, it's gone the other way and on top of that they no longer offer value as decoys presumably because of the poor spacing.

Steve

 

[Absolute Zero]

I was watching something more uplifting. The 50th anniversary celebration of the career of Peter, Paul & Mary on PBS.

But I did catch the Suns 4th quarter. In the words of Bob Dylan:

Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head
Pretending he just doesn't see?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

If I had a hammer...

 

[SirStefan32]

I agree with this but I was referring to one specific aspect of this conversation. You were against the idea of pairing two point guards from the beginning and many of us disagreed with you and the others that felt that way. But IMO, our two combo guards did work last year. They didn't exactly make each other better which became obvious as the season progressed but we still won at a very high clip when the two were healthy.

Last year the only benefit that came from the pairing was as decoys. And I'll admit, I really expected them to grow into something special this season. But instead, it's gone the other way and on top of that they no longer offer value as decoys presumably because of the poor spacing.

Steve

Last year, it worked because it took teams by surprise and Dragic shot the ball extremely well. Problem was never two point guards. The problem was that Bledsoe is an undersized shooting guard who can't shoot, but needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Dragic is more of a point guard than Bledsoe, but is not good enough of a shooter to be an effective shooting guard, and he also need the ball in his hands to be effective.

KJ/Hornacek comparisons drove me crazy because that was a different situation- KJ was an actual point guard (which Bledsoe is not) and Hornacek was good enough of a shooter to be a legitimate shooting guard (which Dragic is not.) THAT point is the one that only a handful of people recognized. You cannot play two combo-guards who can't shoot over 40% from the three-point line, AND need the ball in their hands to be effective. You can get away with one or the other to a certain degree, but you cannot get away with both.

It is not about them not making each other better. It is all about them making each other worse which is what only a couple of people recognized before they play one single minute together.

 

[Errntknght]

Absolutely! But you and I, along with one more person (I can never remember who it was), recognized that was going to be the case before they ever played one minute together. I cannot understand why McD/Babby/Sarver/Hornacek cannot recognize that.

How did you guess that Hornacek would tolerate them playing the way they have? Indeed, he seems to endorse it. I expected to see a whole gamut of plays where the two of them interacted and were I the coach I'd expect build the offense around their interaction. On plays where they didn't, in fact, interact, I'd use the threat that they might.

I'm thoroughly baffled by this aspect of their play - its really beyond stupid if the goal is to win basketball games. Its surprising they were as successful as they were last year - they weren't even very good decoys.