Goran Dragic plans to test free agency; blames struggles on 3 PG system

[AzStevenCal]

So he's not worth Bledsoe money? Isn't $14M/year exactly what Bledose got, before the expected salary cap increase?

No, I don't think he is worth Bledsoe money. But the expected salary cap increase was already expected when Bledsoe signed. Goran is offense only and his offense, right now, is very average. And it has been very average for most of his career. Unless we're going to build around a stretch big man I just don't think he has that kind of value.

He's also committed to international play in the offseason and if I were writing his checks I'd have serious concerns about it. He acknowledged last season, several times, that year around play had taken a toll on him. He then promised he wouldn't be doing it again and yet a week after the season was over he changed his mind.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

No, I don't think he is worth Bledsoe money. But the expected salary cap increase was already expected when Bledsoe signed. Goran is offense only and his offense, right now, is very average. And it has been very average for most of his career. Unless we're going to build around a stretch big man I just don't think he has that kind of value.

He's also committed to international play in the offseason and if I were writing his checks I'd have serious concerns about it. He acknowledged last season, several times, that year around play had taken a toll on him. He then promised he wouldn't be doing it again and yet a week after the season was over he changed his mind.

Steve

He can be fine without a stretch big man as long as there isn't 5 other PGs vying for playing time with him.

Difference between Dragic this year and last year is more than just the loss of Frye. Last year when Dragic made a couple of mistakes, he stayed in the game and was given the chance to redeem himself throughout rest of the game.

This year when Dragic makes a couple of mistakes, he gets yanked in favor of Bledsoe or IT or whoever.

And Dragic is absolutely worth $14M/season. I don't care if he averages 10 pts for rest of this season, he will light it up when he goes to a normal team that doesn't have a billion guards on the roster.

I agree with you about the international play though but that can be controlled just like SAS does with Parker and Ginobili.

 

[devilalum]

Did Dragic play during the 4th quarter tonight?

 

[devilalum]

Bledsoe - 25 pts, 7 reb, 6 asts, 2 st, 2 blks...

IMO he's gaining in confidence every game. He sees Dragic struggling and is taking over the team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He can be fine without a stretch big man as long as there isn't 5 other PGs vying for playing time with him.

He's looking at the same guard situation as last year (when he thrived) except we upgraded Ish to IT and we've yet to lose Bledsoe for half a season.

Difference between Dragic this year and last year is more than just the loss of Frye. Last year when Dragic made a couple of mistakes, he stayed in the game and was given the chance to redeem himself throughout rest of the game.

This year when Dragic makes a couple of mistakes, he gets yanked in favor of Bledsoe or IT or whoever.

I have seen nothing of the sort. Going into tonight's game he was averaging 31 minutes. Are you really suggesting that he can tear it up with 35 minutes but not with 31 minutes? All too often he's dragging out there. It looks to me like he needs less minutes, not more.

And Dragic is absolutely worth $14M/season. I don't care if he averages 10 pts for rest of this season, he will light it up when he goes to a normal team that doesn't have a billion guards on the roster.

He didn't "light it up" at any other point of his career. He went to Houston, played halfway decently but they had no problem letting him walk for 7.5 million per season. He's a nice guy and a decent basketball player but we greatly overate him for the 3 or 4 months of excellence he had last season. What about all the other months of his career when he was never mentioned among the better guards in the league?

The year before, when Frye was injured, Dragic would disappear for long stretches for the same reason he disappears now. He's a one trick pony and when you shut down the lane, you shut down his game. Put him in a traditional offense with a good shooting guard and he'll be what he was before, an average point guard. If you can find a team with at least 2 and hopefully 3 legit perimeter threats (threats to shoot or drive) then you have something but those units are hard to find.

I agree with you about the international play though but that can be controlled just like SAS does with Parker and Ginobili.

Yeah but it's only controlled because those players agreed to that control. The team thought they already had it solved until just after the season ended when Goran informed them he'd changed his mind.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

You don't take out All NBA players like that. Sorry. You just don't if you really want to keep them.

Calling Goran Dragic an all-NBA player is a joke.

He fluked into the 3rd team, he has never made an allstar game.

It seems Goran Dragic can't consistently play without Channing Frye. He has easily been our worst guard this season.

The Suns would be smart to shop Goran, Tucker and Tolliver for a top notch big and trim the rotation. I don't know if such a player is available but maybe the stagnating development of Andre Drummond could make him available. I would give up Dragic, Tucker, Plumlee.

 

[sunsfan88]

He's looking at the same guard situation as last year (when he thrived) except we upgraded Ish to IT and we've yet to lose Bledsoe for half a season.

Ish averaged far fewer minutes than what IT has been gettin this season and also Ish wasn't nearly as high a usage player as IT.

I have seen nothing of the sort. Going into tonight's game he was averaging 31 minutes. Are you really suggesting that he can tear it up with 35 minutes but not with 31 minutes? All too often he's dragging out there. It looks to me like he needs less minutes, not more.

Ok maybe not minutes but the ball gets taken out of his hands and he's forced into standing and watching. Now that could be cause Bledsoe/IT don't want to pass it to him because they want to dominate the ball instead but whatever the case, Dragic does not get nearly as much opportunities with the ball.

I agree with you that its better to sit Dragic than force him into standing there watching the game as if he has court side seats.

He didn't "light it up" at any other point of his career. He went to Houston, played halfway decently but they had no problem letting him walk for 7.5 million per season. He's a nice guy and a decent basketball player but we greatly overate him for the 3 or 4 months of excellence he had last season. What about all the other months of his career when he was never mentioned among the better guards in the league?

The year before, when Frye was injured, Dragic would disappear for long stretches for the same reason he disappears now. He's a one trick pony and when you shut down the lane, you shut down his game. Put him in a traditional offense with a good shooting guard and he'll be what he was before, an average point guard. If you can find a team with at least 2 and hopefully 3 legit perimeter threats (threats to shoot or drive) then you have something but those units are hard to find.

20 pts, 6 assists, 50% shooting from the field and 40% from 3. Not many players did that last year so I consider that as lighting it up.

And your right, he was never mentioned among the top PGs until last season. But he also never had a starting opportunity with a good HC and decent team until last year. His first year back in PHX, we had guys like freaking Michael Beasley, Shannon Brown, Wes Johnson, etc as guys who suck or ball hogging the ball. Then the HC was a ******** named Lindsey Hunter, I'm not gonna blame Dragic for not playing very well under him.

Hornacek isn't the greatest HC but I think his system along with the role players who we have now (last season and this season) are much better than Dragic ever had before.

Steve, you are too locked into thinking "Dragic is only good with Frye or stretch 3s, otherwise he's a scrub". You need to start looking at the other differences this team had last year, not just Frye coming back there was MANY other changes made. And all those changes played a role in his game.And Dragic is far from being a "one trick pony". He has bunch of moves under his belt and his shooting improved a ton as evidenced by last season's numbers.

Yeah but it's only controlled because those players agreed to that control. The team thought they already had it solved until just after the season ended when Goran informed them he'd changed his mind.

I think Dragic only played because people back in Slovenia called out his loyalty by not playing so if the Suns take away the choice from him, then he'll a have a valid excuse to tell his people as to why he can't play.

Suns just have to add it to his contract.
Steve

My reply is above.

 

[slinslin]

Dragic has gotten more touches than Bledsoe and Thomas, he is just sucking. Stop making excuses for him it is getting sickening to see how Goran Dragic is getting the Steve Nash treatment despite not having achieved anything.

 

[Chaz]

I like Dragic and his game but he isn't playing well right now and it isn't because of the other guards.

Also I don't understand the need for hyperbole when describing the guards situation. There aren't a billion guards or even 5 point guards. There are 4 guards that get regular minutes right now. It isn't some radical experiment here, just players learning to play together. The team is doing a much better job lately moving and moving the ball.

As for Goran he will come around l. He just needs to stay aggressive and his shot will start falling.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Last year, Goran shot noticeably better from the field and from the 3 point line when Frye was in the game. This year, Goran is shooting about like he did when Frye was out of the game last season. We are 9 - 5 against a weak schedule. If Goran was shooting like he had last year (with Frye on the court), we'd probably have 3 or 4 more wins and no one would be ranting about our trio of scoring guards.



The reason I'm making an issue about his shooting is because it's key to the other things he does. If he can't get layups and he can't make his outside shots, he can't run the offense. You can point to him being 3rd team all pro but notice that he's never been anywhere near that before. He only did it once, the one season where Frye was on the court with him and shooting 3's and working the pick and roll/pop with him. Before Frye, mediocrity. After Frye, again, mediocrity.



And Dragic was a 3rd team All NBA guard, not an All NBA point guard. They select 2 guards, 2 forwards and 1 center.



Steve

Honestly, Dragic didn't play that well over the summer either. He played ok, but did not dominate like you would think a third team all-NBA guard would.

Something is wrong.

We do miss Frye. But I am not sure that explains Dragic. We miss the depth at center, those few extra rebounds and his defense (yes).

 

[Chaplin]

Calling Goran Dragic an all-NBA player is a joke.

He fluked into the 3rd team, he has never made an allstar game.

It seems Goran Dragic can't consistently play without Channing Frye. He has easily been our worst guard this season.

The Suns would be smart to shop Goran, Tucker and Tolliver for a top notch big and trim the rotation. I don't know if such a player is available but maybe the stagnating development of Andre Drummond could make him available. I would give up Dragic, Tucker, Plumlee.

Geez, give me a break. Dragic isn't playing well right now, but he didn't "fluke" into anything, no matter how little credit people here want to give him for last year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Steve, you are too locked into thinking "Dragic is only good with Frye or stretch 3s, otherwise he's a scrub". You need to start looking at the other differences this team had last year, not just Frye coming back there was MANY other changes made. And all those changes played a role in his game.And Dragic is far from being a "one trick pony". He has bunch of moves under his belt and his shooting improved a ton as evidenced by last season's numbers.

First off, I've never called him a scrub. Not once. I've pointed out the FACT that he has been fairly average throughout his career except for last season.

Your dislike of Frye has caused you to completely miss what happened last year. You'd rant about him losing a couple of rebounds to little guys and ignore the fact that everyone else was at their best when Channing played. We pointed it out frequently but the anti-Frye group simply ignored it. Now, we are seeing further evidence of it and again, you're just ignoring it.

I'm not saying Frye was the sole reason last year's team showed so much improvement, Frye was one of several pieces that made the whole package effective. It was still Goran driving to the hoop and making those incredible shots. Replace Dragic with an average guard and we play a lot closer to the 20 or so win team we were expected to be. But putting Tucker in the corner and Green/Bledsoe on the wing along with Frye at the top let Dragic make those incredible drives. When he gets a little space this year he still penetrates and creates for himself and others but very few teams are giving him that space.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

I'm not saying Frye was the sole reason last year's team showed so much improvement, Frye was one of several pieces that made the whole package effective. It was still Goran driving to the hoop and making those incredible shots. Replace Dragic with an average guard and we play a lot closer to the 20 or so win team we were expected to be. But putting Tucker in the corner and Green/Bledsoe on the wing along with Frye at the top let Dragic make those incredible drives. When he gets a little space this year he still penetrates and creates for himself and others but very few teams are giving him that space.

Frye is a 39% career three-point shooter. Marcus Morris is 37%. If the Suns are that desperate to have a "stretch 4," the solution is already on the roster.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Frye is a 39% career three-point shooter. Marcus Morris is 37%. If the Suns are that desperate to have a "stretch 4," the solution is already on the roster.

Frye shot 43 percent from 3 last year during Goran's best months. Frye can do things defensively that Marcus can't do and Frye can't be guarded on the perimeter by a little guy. Marcus also isn't the problem on the pick and roll/pop which was key to Goran's success last year. I think playing the twins at the 4 and 5 makes more sense than what we're doing but I don't think it solves all of Goran's issues.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Frye shot 43 percent from 3 last year during Goran's best months.

Small sample size.

Frye can do things defensively that Marcus can't do and Frye can't be guarded on the perimeter by a little guy.

I think Frye is a better player than McM, but it's simply isn't true that "Frye can't be guarded on the perimeter by a little guy." He was, and it became more prevalent as the season went on.

I think playing the twins at the 4 and 5 makes more sense than what we're doing but I don't think it solves all of Goran's issues.

We're in agreement there. My point was that, unless Hornacek is a fool, it has already occurred to him to try to replicate last year's lineup with McM instead of Frye. I haven't been paying enough attention to know whether we've ever seen that lineup this season, but if we have, it hasn't been much, so evidently it wasn't a rousing success. So Hornacek has concluded that the problem isn't the lack of a stretch 4.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think Frye is a better player than McM, but it's simply isn't true that "Frye can't be guarded on the perimeter by a little guy." He was, and it became more prevalent as the season went on.

The vast majority of the time he was guarded by a center or a power forward. He's tall, has a high release point AND a quick release and teams tried various players to guard him but it was almost always a big or a big + a double. Most of the times he ended up with a little guy on him was the result of a switch in pick and roll situations. Some teams, very late in the season, finally started making him earn his coverage each game but all he had to do was make a shot or two and they went back to paying serious attention to him. We tended to struggle in those games when he didn't sink an early shot because our spacing disappeared.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Some teams, very late in the season, finally started making him earn his coverage each game but all he had to do was make a shot or two and they went back to paying serious attention to him. We tended to struggle in those games when he didn't sink an early shot because our spacing disappeared.

Yes, and that's exactly the point. A 40% three-point shooter will miss his first shot of the game 3 out of 5 times, and he'll start 0-2 more than 1/3 of the time. 38% is right around the break-even point of whether starting 0-2 or 1-1 is more likely. Having an offense rely on whether your "big man" can make a 23-footer isn't a recipe for consistent success.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes, and that's exactly the point. A 40% three-point shooter will miss his first shot of the game 3 out of 5 times, and he'll start 0-2 more than 1/3 of the time. Having an offense rely on whether your "big man" can make a 23-footer isn't a recipe for consistent success.

I think having a big man that can draw his defender out to the 3 point line is a nice tool to have but designing your offense around it IS a recipe for disaster. I'd rather have someone like an Anthony Davis or LaMarcus Aldridge or Serge Ibaka that can hit the occasional 3 but whose offensive game doesn't rely on it. I don't mind that we've moved on from Frye. I just think that Goran's value has been inflated because of the presence of a specialist and we no longer have that specialist.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

It would be an interesting concept in video game where egos don't exist but there is no way it would fly here. All of our PGs would be irate with that kind of rotation. I also don't think that Goodwin or Zoran are near good enough to make that worth it. They may have "SG" next to their name in the scorers book but I don't think either of them play the role better than our current rotation can.

IT is the only one of them that is happy with things they way they are and I imagine Eric and Goran both envy him getting to run the show unencumbered by another PG. This would put them all on an equal footing and they'd all get opportunities to be the man in charge. There would be a rivalry among them to see who could accomplish the most on his watch and I'd expect to see them exerting maximum effort toward that end, regardless of how they felt about being put in that position. We know what cures all in basketball and that is winning. If we went on winning binge they'd all be happy as clams.

Why would you say Zoran is not good enough to be worthwhile? He and Goran dragged a pretty sorry squad to considerable success in a demanding arena. Put him out there with Goran and they become the Lithuanian contingent, and they'd play their butts off maintaining the honor of their homeland - we'd see Goran at his best once again.

Goodwin has plenty offer, too, and we've seen it in spurts. He's our third best defensive guard behind Bled and PJ. Mostly he's been the odd man out since he got here and nobody is ever looking for him. I'd team him with Bledsoe and suggest that they would not want to look like wimpy defenders compared to the elderly Euros on the team. I might even say I wanted to see mayhem. Eric would soon find ways to tap Archies offensive talent to keep from running second to IT/Green or, heaven forbid, third on the O side.
I'd expect Archie to surprise everyone by how much he can contribute consistently if he has someone trying to help set him up. He's a heck of an ally-oop target, for example, if someone would just look for it - I doubt if anyone here even suspects it. (No one remarked on it when Markieff tossed one for him last year, but then it happened in the blink of an eye. I'd been waiting to see it since he has the speed and hops to carry it out.)

The pairings I'd start with are: IT with Green/Warren; Dragic with Dragic/Green; Bledsoe with Goodwin/Tucker. And look for chances to try out Marcus playing some 2. Needless to say Tucker and Warren will be playing at the 3 and 4 as well.

The two PGs has worked in certain rotations and worked well and really, of the groups that have seen sample sizes worth respecting, the one that has worked the least is Dragic/Bledsoe/MorrisX2/Plumlee, but unfortunately its been the one we've seen the most of... until the last week or two. Coincidentally Dragic and Bledsoe have started putting together better games and been playing better together when removed from that particular lineup.

Its hard to look at our rotation splits and not come away thinking that the main problem has been these guys clicking with Plumlee and our spacing with Plumlee and not so much their struggles with each other. I'd like to see how Miles would do off the bench, if a simplified role makes the game start to come easier for him. Also pairing him with Thomas more and saving the Len/small ball looks for when Dragic and/or Bledsoe are out there. Thomas does far more isolation than the other two do. He does not need to worry about Plumlee's lack of threat as a pick man or how rarely Plumlee handles (or is ready for a pass) because Thomas does not bother with such trivialities when he can simply charge forward and toss up floaters or take a jumper on the run

Like I said a few days back the time is nigh to remove the threat of Len hanging over Plumlee's head by making Len the starter. He'll find the reality much less painful than the threat. I wouldn't expect a long drawn out period of adjustment because he's known it would happen for some time. Once its done Jeff can focus on working out the best floor groups for him to play with whereas he was hamstrung with Plums starting.

Look at what playing this style would do for us - we could stop worrying about who might be best to trade for starters. Who would even care what will happen down the road because we would move into contender status this year, depending what progress the frontcourt makes. Our defense would be significantly improved. Jeff can go big or small with any of the trio on the floor. (I think he is missing a bet by not going relatively big at times now.) None of our backcourt players are going to get worn out - heck, they'll probably look forward to back-to-backs. The fastbreak will be in play all the time. Everyone on the roster will be contributing regularly. The basic individual styles of our PGs are similar enough that the frontcourt players will mesh fairly well with any of them. If one of our PGs goes down the other two will have little trouble covering for him - and we might start giving Ennis a go on the same general basis.

We probably do need to add another true PF to hold our own in the paint against the strongest teams (Grizz, for example) and it is possible that Plumlee will not be quite adequate as a backup - he seems like he should be able to handle it but he's kind of an enigma. Once we have the frontcourt sorted out its going to be a lot easier to see what we need to add.

 

[sunsfan88]

Someone posted this on RealGM and it's quite breathtaking. I knew Goran played off ball a lot but I wasn't quite sure of how much they forced him to stand around and watch for

You must be registered for see images

 

[sunsfan88]

Following Phoenix's 104-100 loss to the Toronto Raptors, Thomas' tone shifted to serious. The Suns had fallen behind by 17 points and needed a fourth-quarter run led by Thomas to get back into the it. In a 64-second span, Thomas made three consecutive 3-pointers. In 22 total minutes, he scored 16 points on 10 field goal attempts.

A reporter began to ask him about the backcourt -- Dragic played a season-low 21 minutes, and sometimes it's Thomas in that position.

“It's always me,” Thomas interrupted, looking and sounding frustrated. “It's always me.”

It's a tough situation,” Thomas said. “But you've just got to be ready for whatever circumstances coach puts you in. You gotta be ready when your name is called, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It's tough.

“It's not what I expected,” Thomas continued. “But coach has a tough job. Putting all of us on the floor and trying to mix up the minutes, it's tough for him. So it's not just tough for us as players, we just gotta be ready when our name's called and just know, I mean, coach is trying to do what he thinks is best for the team to put us in a position to win. But the key word is it's a tough situation. For all of us.”

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24839712

The bolded is what is key here. Its tough on everyone, not just any one guy, with this 3 PG BS.

How did Ryan McD not see this coming when signing yet another PG despite having 2 very good ones on the roster?

 

[Cheesebeef]

The bolded is what is key here. Its tough on everyone, not just any one guy, with this 3 PG BS.

How did Ryan McD not see this coming when signing yet another PG despite having 2 very good ones on the roster?

not only that, but reaching for ANOTHER PG in Ennis made even less sense.

 

[AzStevenCal]

not only that, but reaching for ANOTHER PG in Ennis made even less sense.

Ennis was not my choice but I don't think he was a reach by any means. In the NBA, I think you should always draft best player available for the first few picks and then fit/need start to become a bigger part of the decision. We didn't need another point guard so I question (and questioned) the pick but he was a top 15 pick in more than a few mock drafts.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

The bolded is what is key here. Its tough on everyone, not just any one guy, with this 3 PG BS.

How did Ryan McD not see this coming when signing yet another PG despite having 2 very good ones on the roster?

He only had one on the roster at the time. He expected to re-sign Bledsoe but you never know how those will go. Also, some of the tension is because we aren't winning as much as we should be. Plus, the absence of Frye had made Green even more important and much of his 21 minutes per game may well have been intended to be divided by the point guards. Right now it looks like a miscalculation but there is still time to work it out. And if it fails, we still have tradable assets.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

not only that, but reaching for ANOTHER PG in Ennis made even less sense.

It was stupid. I called it, I said that this move makes no sense because he will not even get playing time.

His trade value will also drop substantially, remember Kendall Marshall was a throw in one year after his rookie season. And Marshall was actually a lottery pick too.

He only had one on the roster at the time. He expected to re-sign Bledsoe but you never know how those will go. Also, some of the tension is because we aren't winning as much as we should be. Plus, the absence of Frye had made Green even more important and much of his 21 minutes per game may well have been intended to be divided by the point guards. Right now it looks like a miscalculation but there is still time to work it out. And if it fails, we still have tradable assets.

Steve

Green is imo one of things that's wrong with this team. He's one of the high volume shooters who needs to go. Him, Bledsoe, IT and even Dragic at times are all ball hogging too damn much and going iso way too often.

Hornacek said it best

Phoenix head coach Jeff Hornacek has used the three of them together when he's wanted to push the pace. Offensively, that's a lot to handle. The strategy has obvious defensive drawbacks, though, especially when the opponent has a post-up threat on the wing. Finding the proper balance has been tricky.

“They're all used to having the ball in their hands quite a bit, and they're still trying to figure it out,” Hornacek said. “And so are we [the coaching staff]. It's not just those three guys — we have Gerald Green at the guard position also. And everyone goes, ‘Ehh, we can just slide him over to the 3 spot,' but then we have P.J. Tucker and Marcus Morris.”

If I was Hornacek, I would be getting in the ear of McD and telling to get rid of the log jam at these positions. And if that's not working, then make some public comments about it. It will at least get the fan support on his side.