Gortat says Nash got too much credit

[elindholm]

Rather than using weak ass Per 36 numbers that are skewed due to extremely small sample sizes...

...This includes a game in which he was 4/13 from the field which significantly brings down his average.

LOL. An entire season is a "small sample size" for per-36 stats, but a single game out of seven should be tossed out as an outlier, just because it's one sigma from the mean. Good one.

 

[BC867]

Yeah really, when I look at Scola and Gortat, I see two good role players, but definitely not something to fear.

True! My point of curiosity was Scola or Gortat. Which one would draw attention from the other, regardless of how the two of them compare to the other Big Man combos in the league.

I guess your points are that opponents will play Scola and Gortat straight up.

 

[carey]

Per-36 is one of the most useless stats out there. I wish it wasn't even a stat, along with the awful +/-.

 

[Phrazbit]

True! My point of curiosity was Scola or Gortat. Which one would draw attention from the other, regardless of how the two of them compare to the other Big Man combos in the league.

I guess your points are that opponents will play Scola and Gortat straight up.

Yes, I think they will get played straight up. A double on Gortat will be very rare and probably only happen when there is a real size mismatch, and I cant see why Scola would ever draw a double.

 

[slinslin]

Per-36 is one of the most useless stats out there. I wish it wasn't even a stat, along with the awful +/-.

uh no minute adjusted number or pace adjusted numbers are not useless at all when talking about effeciency.

The fact is that Lopez did not produce worse numbers when paired with Nash. The fact is Gortat number as well as Lopez numbers fell off dramatically without Nash on the floor.

 

[slinslin]

LOL. An entire season is a "small sample size" for per-36 stats, but a single game out of seven should be tossed out as an outlier, just because it's one sigma from the mean. Good one.

7 games over the span of more than 1 year..

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pl...Marcin-Gortat|959,101162;year=201112;season=r

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pl...s-Robin-Lopez|959,201577;year=201112;season=r

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

LOL. An entire season is a "small sample size" for per-36 stats, but a single game out of seven should be tossed out as an outlier, just because it's one sigma from the mean. Good one.

The entire season isn't the small sample size that I'm reffering to. I'm reffering to the incredibly low amount of time in games that Lopez spent with Nash and the low amount of time that Gortat spent without Nash. I mean we are talking about like 2-4 minutes a game? There is no way to get good information from those numbers. Sure Lopez can look good with Nash for like 2 minutes a game, but it in no way proves that he can put up the same numbers as Gortat in 36 minutes.

Also I didn't "toss out" that bad game considering the numbers I gave were including that game, but I did point it out as an "outlier" and in hindsight I probably should have just let it go.

 

[elindholm]

I'm reffering to the incredibly low amount of time in games that Lopez spent with Nash and the low amount of time that Gortat spent without Nash. I mean we are talking about like 2-4 minutes a game?

I don't know how much time we're talking about, but if it's 250-300 minutes over the course of a season, it doesn't look like an especially small sample size to me.

 

[slinslin]

I don't know how much time we're talking about, but if it's 250-300 minutes over the course of a season, it doesn't look like an especially small sample size to me.

Gortat played 333 minutes without Nash that is about 16% of his total minutes.

 

[carey]

uh no minute adjusted number or pace adjusted numbers are not useless at all when talking about effeciency.

The fact is that Lopez did not produce worse numbers when paired with Nash. The fact is Gortat number as well as Lopez numbers fell off dramatically without Nash on the floor.

You just made my point for me. If you think Lopez is anywhere near the player Gortat is based on per-36 with Nash I don't know what to tell you mate.

 

[elindholm]

Well in the preseason, Gortat averaged 8.7 pts, 7.7 reb, 1.7 blk in 24.7 minutes for the Suns, and for Lopez it was 9.9, 7.5, 1.6, in 27.4 for the Hornets. Neither is with Nash now. Pretty comparable. We'll see what the regular season brings. Oh, and Lopez is still four years younger.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I don't know how much time we're talking about, but if it's 250-300 minutes over the course of a season, it doesn't look like an especially small sample size to me.

It is a small sample size. A lot of players look good in per 36 numbers when the minutes per game is really low. When a player actually plays 36 minutes there is other factors that come into play like fatigue, consistency and you're ability to adjust to the defensive adjustments made on you. Teams didn't game plan for Lopez because he wasn't going to play very many minutes and he isn't all that good of an offensive player.

 

[elindholm]

When a player actually plays 36 minutes there is other factors that come into play like fatigue, consistency and you're ability to adjust to the defensive adjustments made on you. Teams didn't game plan for Lopez because he wasn't going to play very many minutes and he isn't all that good of an offensive player.

Well then your point isn't that the sample size is small, but that it's distorted. Which I think is a valid argument, but it's a different issue.

In any case, I'll be very interested to see how Gortat's and Lopez's numbers stack up this season.

 

[carey]

Well then your point isn't that the sample size is small, but that it's distorted. Which I think is a valid argument, but it's a different issue.

In any case, I'll be very interested to see how Gortat's and Lopez's numbers stack up this season.

That's basically mine as well. Almost no player that receives 15 min or so would average their per-36 minute numbers if actually given 36 minutes a game. It's just a ridiculous stat.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

That's basically mine as well. Almost no player that receives 15 min or so would average their per-36 minute numbers if actually given 36 minutes a game. It's just a ridiculous stat.

Pretty much the point I was trying to make, but better worded.

 

[leclerc]

20/10 on the season is not realistic for Gortat. I think he'll end up closer to 14/8 with 45-50 FG%. Hope he gets to the line a lot. We need someone there along with The Dragon.

On his comment, I think it's fair. All the talk about Steve, Gortat's an above average player in the league, and on the team, so it's fine that he seeks acknowledgement. I think he's walked the walk. Let's see if he can walk it without Stevie running around him giving him the ball in scoring positions.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

20/10 on the season is not realistic for Gortat. I think he'll end up closer to 14/8 with 45-50 FG%. Hope he gets to the line a lot. We need someone there along with The Dragon.

On his comment, I think it's fair. All the talk about Steve, Gortat's an above average player in the league, and on the team, so it's fine that he seeks acknowledgement. I think he's walked the walk. Let's see if he can walk it without Stevie running around him giving him the ball in scoring positions.

He has been closer to 14/10 in games as the starter without Nash the last couple years and that was with Price, Telfair and Brooks starting. Dragic is better at distributing than any of those guys.

 

[Michael]

Gortat per 36 with Nash on the floor
18.3ppg 11.5rpg 57%FG 4.6FTA

Gortat per 36 with Nash on the bench
11.9ppg 10.8rpg 47%FG 2.6FTA

Lopez per 36 with Nash on the floor
21.0ppg 8.0rpg 58%FG 10.8FTA

Lopez per 36 with Nash on the bench
12.8ppg 8.5rpg 44%FG 4.8FTA

Those numbers are incredible! Imagine what Nash would do for Gasol & Howard if Kobe would be happy to put the team before his ego!

 

[elindholm]

Those numbers are incredible! Imagine what Nash would do for Gasol & Howard if Kobe would be happy to put the team before his ego!

Stoudemire's numbers were better with Nash too. I really don't think ego is a problem.

 

[Budden]

Stoudemire's numbers were better with Nash too. I really don't think ego is a problem.

He was talking about Kobe's ego getting in the way of Nash's ability to control the ball enough to help Gasol and Howard as much as Nash can.

I agree with Gortat, because it is really isn't fair to give all the credit for Gortat's success to Steve Nash. You also have to give credit to Robert Sarver, who assembled a team that allowed the opposition to play the Suns at 75% effort for the first 45 games of last season. Steve Nash didn't create those open spaces around the basket that allowed Gortat to score without being bothered - well, Nash certainly facilitated them with his uncanny playmaking abilities, but he didn't create them all. The problem was that Grant Hill, Jared Dudley, Steve Nash, and a couple others threw a humongous monkey wrench into Gortat's effectiveness when they helped the should-be hapless Suns string together a couple winning months. All of the sudden, other teams started focusing on us instead of looking passed us to the next game. We were suddenly battling 5 or 6 teams for playoff position, and those gaping holes under the basket started closing up.

I think Alvin Gentry had a great quote toward the end of last season when he was describing how well everyone was meshing into their respective roles as a team. I can't find the quote, but it was essentially: "Everybody on this team knows what they can do well. We don't have any of those guys who think they're better than they are. Well, except for Marcin, we don't."

 

[Errntknght]

Looking at those stats you could also make the case that Gortat boosted Nash's stats a good bit. For most players +/- isn't too instructive but for PG's its very telling as their job is coordinating the offense. With Gortat on the floor Steve's +/- was +4.6 and with Gortat off the floor it was -11.0. That looks very dramatic (sans Marcin, its worse than any of our other PGs) but I would bet that its mostly due to the small sample size. Heck we know that Steve has had the best plus/minus on the team year in and year out, before Marcin so he can't be having that pronounced of an effect.

Looking at Nash's stats with and without Lopez we see that Steve +/- went the other way -8.9 with Robin and +4.1 without him. Answer small sample size again - in fact pretty much the same sample, since Lopez on court was the same time Gortat was off court.

Another factor in Gortats drop off without Steve might be the time of the year that Steve missed those seven games as they accounted for about 220 of the 333 minutes Marcin played without Steve. If they happened in the latter part of the season when Gortat played very poorly, that could be the dominant factor. I think it was toward the end of the season (and caused us to slip out of playoff contention) but I can't say I'm sure of that. Somebody will quickly let me know if I'm wrong.

I'm not going to conclude much of anything about this argument if Robin plays well for New Orleans this year - as it appears he is going to do, based on the preseason. He played well in short bursts last year but overall he looked terrible. He also looked good a couple of years back when he first took over the starting role but sunk back to crappy, for no apparent reason the next year. More power to him if he succeeds with NO but I don't think it means he'd be playing well here.

 

[Mainstreet]

I watched the second half of the Lakers/ Mavericks game last night. It was weird watching Steve Nash play for the Lakers. It was sort of like sending a child off for his first day at a strange school. Steve even had a shorter haircut. He had 7 points and 4 assists but it was like he was not a star anymore. Sort of sad. The Lakers are playing badly at the moment as they let the Mavericks manhandle them on their home court with a make-shift Mavericks lineup. I could care less about the success of the Lakers but I wish Steve the best as he tries to find his way amidst the egos in LA.

 

[AfroSuns]

I watched the second half of the Lakers/ Mavericks game last night. It was weird watching Steve Nash play for the Lakers. It was sort of like sending a child off for his first day at a strange school. Steve even had a shorter haircut. He had 7 points and 4 assists but it was like he was not a star anymore. Sort of sad. The Lakers are playing badly at the moment as they let the Mavericks manhandle them on their home court with a make-shift Mavericks lineup. I could care less about the success of the Lakers but I wish Steve the best as he tries to find his way amidst the egos in LA.

Yeah, i saw the new haircut too, i guess he is Hollywood Steve now.
I really hope he does well there, but with Mike Brown as the HC, that team is not going to play up to its potential.

 

[Rab]

I think there’s validity to both sides here. Nash and Gortat built up a nice chemistry as time went on. I remember when Gortat first arrived he was not a good pick and roll option with Steve, and struggled to be in the right spots when Steve passed him the ball. This often caused him to be in bad position on shots around the hoop, and also made Steve look bad with inaccurate passing and turnovers. I am in the camp that says Gortat’s numbers will fall this year for a few reasons…


Beasley. Last year the Suns didn’t have much threat in the way of scoring, and they relied heavily on Steve and Marcin to carry the load. The addition of Beasley means he will most likely be the primary scorer, and take shots away from Marcin.

The Goran variable. I really like Goran. I always have. He played well in the small starting sample size in Houston last year, but I’m not completely sold on him being that player here in Phoenix. I hope he will be, but I don’t think he’s as creative as Nash, and just isn’t going to deliver the ball in the same places as Nash did.


Scola. The addition of Scola means more frontcourt scoring. PF was an area of weakness last year for the Suns. My hope is that Marcin and Scola play off each other well, but he is going to take his fair share of shots in the post. I think 14/8 on 48-51% shooting is pretty realistic for Marcin this year. Anything more is a bonus IMO.

 

[Gaddabout]

I don't know if he's right or not but I LOVE the fact that Gortat just speaks his mind without worrying about what he's saying. Its been a while since the Suns have had a player like that.

This guy likes the above statement.

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