Gortat trade?

[elindholm]

trading nash, not for the assets he might bring (and i'd argue that a late first round pick is at least a small percent chance of reaping something of value), but because it would cause this team to lose to the likes of NO, thereby increasing our chances of higher draft pick. that's the way you truly blow this mutha up!

I don't think that it has ever happened that a rebuilding team has dumped its best player just to make themselves worse. It would send a message of cynicism to the fans that would be very difficult to recover from.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think that it has ever happened that a rebuilding team has dumped its best player just to make themselves worse. It would send a message of cynicism to the fans that would be very difficult to recover from.

We have very little talent. Our best player is 38 years old and he appears to still have some gas in the tank. I wonder how often a rebuilding team has found itself in this position? His presence makes us mediocre, his absence makes us a contender for the top draft spot. I think keeping him is sending a much clearer message of cynicism to the fans.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

We have very little talent. Our best player is 38 years old and he appears to still have some gas in the tank. I wonder how often a rebuilding team has found itself in this position? His presence makes us mediocre, his absence makes us a contender for the top draft spot. I think keeping him is sending a much clearer message of cynicism to the fans.

Steve

No matter the message to the fans, I think it is the Suns intent to re-sign Nash next season to a new contract. This seems to be the theme, Nash is still part of the Suns future. How much Nash will command in salary is unknown but I think he will be signed for more than 6M (which Grant Hill commanded for one year) for at least a couple more years.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

We have very little talent. Our best player is 38 years old and he appears to still have some gas in the tank. I wonder how often a rebuilding team has found itself in this position? His presence makes us mediocre, his absence makes us a contender for the top draft spot. I think keeping him is sending a much clearer message of cynicism to the fans.

Steve

Amen. Teams like the Hornets are smart enough to run off their two best players (Gordon's "injury" and Kaman's exile) and to try to get a top 5 pick. Only the Suns are delusional enough to fight for a playoff spot, only to fail miserably and end up with a 10-15 pick and the next Lopez/Clark/Morris poo poo platter. It's just pathetic. How stupid does the FO think we are? (Don't answer that)

Even in the worst days, there was at least a player or two to give you hope, this roster is just a hope vacuum. This team is beyond dog sh...well you know. If we lost any player on the roster other than Gortat, I wouldn't care in the least. That's pitiful.


And what the hell is Nash still doing here? Sticking around for some misguided "loyalty" to the scrubs surrounding him, most of whom he has no long term connection to? I'm beginning to resent his insistence on staying around. In case he hasn't noticed, his career is winding down, and he's toiling in Siberia with a bunch of losers. He's only sabotaging our chances as a top 3 pick, when without him, we have undoubtedly a bottom 3 roster.

The best thing Nash could do for the long term health of this team is to go away. (and Nash is probably my all time favorite Sun)

 

[Griffin]

Teams like the Hornets are smart enough to run off their two best players (Gordon's "injury" and Kaman's exile) and to try to get a top 5 pick.

So you are implying that Gordon is not really injured, yet he is perfectly okay with sitting out even though it will possibly cost him millions of dollars next summer when he is a restricted free agent. Or that in the two games he played with the team he has become so enamored with the franchise and the city that he will sacrifice his own career to help the team score a high draft pick. Or could it be that a player who already missed half of last season with another team is actually injured and unable to play?

I'm beginning to resent his insistence on staying around.

And when exactly did Nash insist on staying here? In fact, he said himself that if the team chooses to go in another direction and deal him, he will be okay with that. He only said he won't ask for a trade himself. And yet because the management won't trade him, people instead blame Nash for not demanding a trade, for not jumping ship when the team ceased being relevant. That is ludicrous. He never said he would object to a trade.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

So you are implying that Gordon is not really injured, yet he is perfectly okay with sitting out even though it will possibly cost him millions of dollars next summer when he is a restricted free agent. Or that in the two games he played with the team he has become so enamored with the franchise and the city that he will sacrifice his own career to help the team score a high draft pick. Or could it be that a player who already missed half of last season with another team is actually injured and unable to play?

This may blow your mind, so you might want to take a seat. Sometimes, when guys get dinged or banged around on bad teams, these injuries can take longer to heal. Additionally, a player may be more motivated to play through injuries if their team is good, and less so if they're bad. Now of course I don't have definitive proof of this, but it wouldn't be particularly shocking.

And when exactly did Nash insist on staying here? In fact, he said himself that if the team chooses to go in another direction and deal him, he will be okay with that. He only said he won't ask for a trade himself. And yet because the management won't trade him, people instead blame Nash for not demanding a trade, for not jumping ship when the team ceased being relevant. That is ludicrous. He never said he would object to a trade.

I really can't explain this to you in a nice way. It's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that Nash is completely free to ask for a trade, and he chooses not to. It's just as much his fault as it is our awful FO, and a complete waste of everyone's time.

 

[mojorizen7]

No matter the message to the fans, I think it is the Suns intent to re-sign Nash next season to a new contract. This seems to be the theme, Nash is still part of the Suns future.

If you're right.....

 

[Griffin]

Sometimes, when guys get dinged or banged around on bad teams, these injuries can take longer to heal. Additionally, a player may be more motivated to play through injuries if their team is good, and less so if they're bad.

Players also tend to be more motivated to play through injuries if they are in the final year of their contracts and due for a big pay raise as Gordon is. He has nothing to gain by sitting out and a lot to lose financially.

Now of course I don't have definitive proof of this

Not only you don't have definite proof, you haven't offered any proof at all.

It's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that Nash is completely free to ask for a trade, and he chooses not to. It's just as much his fault as it is our awful FO, and a complete waste of everyone's time.

Where did I say he wasn't free to ask for a trade? Any player is free to ask for a trade. You make it seem like the team is just waiting anxiously for him to ask out so that they could deal him and start really tanking.

Once again, it is not his responsibility to ask for a trade. It is also not his responsibility to ensure the future well-being of this franchise, especially since once traded he wouldn't be a part of it. There are people within the organization who get paid to do that. Nash gets paid to play and try to win games. If that doesn't bode well for the franchise, it is their responsibility to make the necessary changes.

 

[mojorizen7]

I really can't explain this to you in a nice way. It's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that Nash is completely free to ask for a trade, and he chooses not to. It's just as much his fault as it is our awful FO, and a complete waste of everyone's time.

+1
I dont blame Nash alone. This is a case of a franchise being held hostage(from moving on) due to an owner who hides behind the idea of loyalty to an aging franchise player when in fact he knows that Suns fans will not go to the games if Nash is removed from this pathetic roster.

As for Nash...he's comfortable here and thats all well n good. He'd probably like to retire here as a PHX Sun....and thats all well n good too....BUT.....if there was ever a more selfish act from a more unselfish player i'd like to be given an example of it. I would like to think that most unselfish athletes will find a way to accept and demand to take a backseat role in their twilight years in order for the team to move on and pass the torch to someone else. Nash IS the offense,the catalyst...and as long as he's here,starting,running Nashball,at whatever age.... thats not gonna change.

Nash is doing what Nash wants to do and many feel he has earned the right to do so...meh,maybe. I tend to believe in doing whats best for the franchise. Is forcing the trade of a 38 yr old former MVP really a kick in the teeth? A blemish on the face of future dealings in FA etc...?
Some argue it is....i say no.

My God...Nash isn't royalty. He's just a future HOF basketball player. The Suns must move on. Sarver and Nash are in bed together concerning the lack of future of this team. Sarver doesn't give a @%&$ ....Its up to Nash to do whats best for this franchise and leave.

This is so depressing....

 

[mojorizen7]

I don't think that it has ever happened that a rebuilding team has dumped its best player just to make themselves worse. It would send a message of cynicism to the fans that would be very difficult to recover from.

I dont disagree,but thats a relative statement. I happen to think that this situation is rather unique in terms of who our "best player" is...his age,and how his presence effects the team philosophy and the players around him who cannot seem to develop without being spoonfed by the greatness and the unique style of offense that encompasses Steve Nash.

When(if) Nash leaves....what do we have here? Gortat and a bunch of scrubs who cant even remotely play basketball without a PG like Nash. He makes some of these bums look pretty good at times

Nash as the focal point here for the last couple years and beyond is just simply foolish.

 

[Griffin]

+1
I dont blame Nash alone. This is a case of a franchise being held hostage(from moving on) due to an owner who hides behind the idea of loyalty to an aging franchise player when in fact he knows that Suns fans will not go to the games if Nash is removed from this pathetic roster.

As for Nash...he's comfortable here and thats all well n good. He'd probably like to retire here as a PHX Sun....and thats all well n good too....BUT.....if there was ever a more selfish act from a more unselfish player i'd like to be given an example of it. I would like to think that most unselfish athletes will find a way to accept and demand to take a backseat role in their twilight years in order for the team to move on and pass the torch to someone else. Nash IS the offense,the catalyst...and as long as he's here,starting,running Nashball,at whatever age.... thats not gonna change.

Nash is doing what Nash wants to do and many feel he has earned the right to do so...meh,maybe. I tend to believe in doing whats best for the franchise. Is forcing the trade of a 38 yr old former MVP really a kick in the teeth? A blemish on the face of future dealings in FA etc...?
Some argue it is....i say no.

My God...Nash isn't royalty. He's just a future HOF basketball player. The Suns must move on. Sarver and Nash are in bed together concerning the lack of future of this team. Sarver doesn't give a @%&$ ....Its up to Nash to do whats best for this franchise and leave.

This is so depressing....

If there was some sort of a no-trade clause in Nash's contract and he refused to waive it, then you might have an argument at least from the perspective that Nash is holding the franchise back (or holding it hostage as you say), which in itself is debatable. Or if he made it clear that he did not wish to be traded. But that's not the case.

The argument, which I think is silly and yet some people keep insisting upon, is that since the team is unwilling to trade him outright, it is now somehow his responsibility to ask for a trade and his fault for not doing so. That is some twisted logic. It is not Nash's responsibility to ensure that the team can get a high pick or rebuild quicker, especially if he is not going to be a part of that team anymore. The onus is squarely on the Suns to make the necessary moves. You are not talking about taking a backseat, you are talking about getting out of the car altogether solely for the (perceived) benefit of a team which that player will no longer be a member of. Again, not his job, and good luck coming up with examples of players who have done anything like that. When players demand trades, they do it for their own benefit, not the benefit of the team they are demanding to be traded from.

This does not mean that Nash would object to a trade. That is a big difference. Ultimately with Nash I think it boils down to principles. Teams trade players. It's part of business. There are no no-trade clauses in the NBA. But players don't trade themselves. At least they are not supposed to be able to. I don't think that Nash feels that it is his perogative to demand a trade after signing a contract, and he won't do it out of principle if nothing else. But he may very well be gone next summer when his contract is up.

So why haven't the Suns traded him? I think there are several potential reasons, and the team's loyalty towards Nash isn't likely to be very high on that list.

1. The Suns fear the financial backlash and bad publicity from giving away their last remaining superstar for next to nothing
2. The Suns still feel like if they could improve enough this summer via draft and free agency and re-sign Nash to a reduced contract they could compete next season (they may also feel that Nash, even as a FA, can help convince other FA's to sign here if they think he's coming back)
3. The Suns still feel they can make playoffs this year (this line of reasoning won't last much longer)
4. There are simply no trades where the Suns can get anything of value in return for Nash and they refuse to give him away just so they can lose more games (there may not even be trades where the Suns can just get expiring contracts in return)

Whether any of these reasons are valid or not is debatable, but I highly doubt the Suns reluctance to trade Nash is simply because they are being loyal or because they are waiting for Nash to demand a trade. I believe that if someone offered a young player and couple first round picks he would have already been gone, loyalty or not. And the team would spin that in the media as doing whatever is best for Nash. They still have that card to play.

 

[Magnus]

I think the first order of business should be moving the town of Phoenix along with Arizona geografically more to the east, because suns would have a better chance in the Eastern conference. That's a good start.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think the first order of business should be moving the town of Phoenix along with Arizona geografically more to the east, because suns would have a better chance in the Eastern conference. That's a good start.

At first blush, your suggestion might seem like a good idea. But seriously, it's one of the least practical solutions I've ever come across here. I mean, really, what in the world were you thinking? Did you really believe that Charlotte would say fine, go ahead and drag North Carolina westward?

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The argument, which I think is silly and yet some people keep insisting upon, is that since the team is unwilling to trade him outright, it is now somehow his responsibility to ask for a trade and his fault for not doing so. That is some twisted logic. It is not Nash's responsibility to ensure that the team can get a high pick or rebuild quicker, especially if he is not going to be a part of that team anymore.

Nash's motives should be for his own benefit, not for that of the team. By leaving, he incidentally helps the team. Is that difficult to grasp?

The onus is squarely on the Suns to make the necessary moves. You are not talking about taking a backseat, you are talking about getting out of the car altogether solely for the (perceived) benefit of a team which that player will no longer be a member of. Again, not his job, and good luck coming up with examples of players who have done anything like that. When players demand trades, they do it for their own benefit, not the benefit of the team they are demanding to be traded from.

You keep repeating this straw man, but it's not been insinuated. It's a fortunate byproduct of doing what will be in his benefit as well. Let me say this again clearly: Nash should leave the Suns because his time here is wasted, and there is no point in a player of his skills/age to play for a garbage team. (Which is why he'd never want to be traded to another garbage team at this point, and justifiably so)

But players don't trade themselves.

I believe you've watched sports for awhile, but this is incredibly naive. Players force trades all the time. Lots of times, they don't even have to, and it's a mutually agreed upon decision for a variety of reasons. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Whether any of these reasons are valid or not is debatable, but I highly doubt the Suns reluctance to trade Nash is simply because they are being loyal or because they are waiting for Nash to demand a trade. I believe that if someone offered a young player and couple first round picks he would have already been gone, loyalty or not. And the team would spin that in the media as doing whatever is best for Nash. They still have that card to play.

Although the team has specifically stated as much, maybe you're right. Sarver and crew may be delusional enough to think that Nash alone will keep pulling in ticket sales, although that myth is quickly being destroyed. It seems highly unlikely that anyone would be dumb enough to think of Nash as an effective recruiter either. So why the hell keep him around?

I think everyone knows we're not getting a player and picks, maybe one or the other. In any event, getting rid of Nash for nothing at this point would be a benefit, as he artificially inflates our team in the short term, for no long term benefit, and frankly, he has no reason to be on this team anymore. It's a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Covert Rain]

lol you must be delusional to take Gortat over Drummond seriously.. there is 0% chance though that any team with the #2 pick would give it up for Gortat.

Which is why you don't make money at being a GM.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Which is why you don't make money at being a GM.

i think slin never gives Gortat enough credit, but I think you're completely delusional if you think any GM would give up the number one or two pick in the draft for Gortat.

 

[jagu]

Very true, Gortat is awesome but giving up a #2 for him may be crazy. As an opposing team's GM I wouldn't sign off on that trade. NBA trades suck, let's be realistic, you'll probably get a) another team's bloated one-year contract bum bball player b) a protected draft pick c) another useless player who will get waived within a year or two.


MLB trades are often fair now but NBA trades are laughable for the most part.

 

[Covert Rain]

i think slin never gives Gortat enough credit, but I think you're completely delusional if you think any GM would give up the number one or two pick in the draft for Gortat.

I misread his post. Definitely not. Gortat is not a Superstar and if you can get a franchise player in return, a Phoenix GM makes that trade. However, no GM that has that pick makes that trade. I have been consistent in that I think Gortat is very good but not a Superstar.

I admit, I tend to speed read half of Slinslins posts these days because they are full of garbage.

 

[Griffin]

Nash's motives should be for his own benefit, not for that of the team. By leaving, he incidentally helps the team. Is that difficult to grasp?

But he can do that just as well this summer. Unless the team chose to trade him, he probably would rather just play out the remainder of his contract and leave as FA than demand a trade midway through his final season and then feel like he bailed on a team when they were at their worst for his own benefit. Is that so difficult to grasp? That he might have different set of priorities or values than you?

Nash should leave the Suns because his time here is wasted, and there is no point in a player of his skills/age to play for a garbage team. (Which is why he'd never want to be traded to another garbage team at this point, and justifiably so)

He cannot leave the team while still being under contract. He can only force his way out, even if the Suns would be happy to oblige, even if the fans and media would perfectly understand. And no matter how you may feel about it, he has said many times it is not what he feels comfortable doing, although he never said he would be against the idea if that's what the Suns wanted. How can you fault a guy for not being selfish enough to quit on a team while still under contract? Oh, right, when it happens to interfere with what you think is best for the team.

I believe you've watched sports for awhile, but this is incredibly naive. Players force trades all the time. Lots of times, they don't even have to, and it's a mutually agreed upon decision for a variety of reasons. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Just because it happens a lot, doesn't mean that every player feels it is his option. Don't you get that? Technically, no player has that option, but they force trades because teams don't want to pay unhappy players or because they don't want to lose those players for nothing. That is not how it should work. You sign a guaranteed contract, you play for that team for the duration, unless the team chooses to trade you which is their option. Fortunately, not every player feels comfortable bailing on a team so that he can put himself in a more favorable situation, even if no one would actually perceive it as bailing. Let me ask you this. You say it's perfectly normal and understandable for a player to demand a trade. Let's say Nash does ask for a trade, the Suns get number one pick and draft Anthony Davis. Then a year before his final season he demands a trade to a large-market team. Would you be perfectly understanding then? Would you feel like it is his option since players do it all the time?

Essentially for whatever reason, good or bad, the Suns so far have refused to trade Nash. So you want Nash, at the expense of his own pride, to bail them out by demanding a trade to make it easy on them. And you justify that by saying it is for his own benefit too, as if his values and priorities were the same as yours. But that's just not the case. Nash is free to leave this summer when his contract is up. He only has three more months to go. Oh, but that won't help getting the Suns more ping pong balls in the lottery this year. Well, it is not his job nor responsibility to get out of the way so that the Suns can get a high draft pick. If the Suns really wanted to lose as many games as possible, which I doubt, they need to be the ones to make that move. And Nash made it clear he won't object to it. The ball is in their court.

 

[BC867]

In any event, getting rid of Nash for nothing at this point would be a benefit, as he artificially inflates our team in the short term, for no long term benefit, and frankly, he has no reason to be on this team anymore. It's a waste of everyone's time.

It will be interesting to see if the latest All Star development puts a delay on this topic.

Steve came in 4th in the voting for Western guards but, after Kobe, the two before Steve are both Point Guards -- Chris Paul and Ricky Rubio.

Will the Western all-star coach jump Nash over Rubio as the backup Point Guard? Will he he go with only one Shooting Guard? Will he go with five Guards?

'Hard to see Steve going anywhere with this up in the air.

BTW, Gortat came in fifth in the voting for Center in the west.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It will be interesting to see if the latest All Star development puts a delay on this topic.

Steve came in 4th in the voting for Western guards but, after Kobe, the two before Steve are both Point Guards -- Chris Paul and Ricky Rubio.

Will the Western all-star coach jump Nash over Rubio as the backup Point Guard? Will he he go with only one Shooting Guard? Will he go with five Guards?

'Hard to see Steve going anywhere with this up in the air.

BTW, Gortat came in fifth in the voting for Center in the west.

If Nash doesn't make the All-Star team it is a travesty. He is clearly the better pg right now than Rubio.

 

[elindholm]

If Nash doesn't make the All-Star team it is a travesty. He is clearly the better pg right now than Rubio.

Nash surely has a better chance than Rubio, but Westbrook is probably a lock, so there is a maximum of one PG spot left.

 

[BC867]

Nash surely has a better chance than Rubio, but Westbrook is probably a lock, so there is a maximum of one PG spot left.

With the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Western guards in the voting all Point Guards (Nash 4th and Westbrook 5th), I don't think Westbrook could be called a lock.

There are three Point Guards ahead of him. Would Westbrook at #5 bump both Rubio (#3) and Nash (#4)? Even Kyle Lowry at #6 is a Point Guard.

Do you think five Guards would be named to the roster and one of four Point Guards would be Kobe's backup at the '2'?

The other option would be choosing three Wings, even if one is a Small Forward. That would be operating from a position of power.

 

[elindholm]

With the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Western guards in the voting all Point Guards (Nash 4th and Westbrook 5th), I don't think Westbrook could be called a lock.

The fan voting determines only the starters. The coaches or media or whoever it is that votes on the others pay no attention to the fan vote. Rubio in third place is absurd.

Would Westbrook at #5 bump both Rubio (#3) and Nash (#4)? Even Kyle Lowry at #6 is a Point Guard.

Yes, Westbrook is clearly more deserving than either Rubio or Nash, as anyone who is following the league this year would agree. Lowry is another strong candidate.

Do you think five Guards would be named to the roster and one of four Point Guards would be Kobe's backup at the '2'?

I don't know exactly how the voting for backups works.

The other option would be choosing three Wings, even if one is a Small Forward. That would be operating from a position of power.

You seem to think that the voting is done with some sort of grand design of team balance in mind, when that is clearly not the case. Being selected for the All-Star team is just an honor, nothing more.

 

[slinslin]

Nash didnt make it last year why would he make it this year?

Ty Lawson also wants in before Nash.