Green Fires Lindsay & O'Dea, Pollard Retires

[Russ Smith]

The thing about Lindsey that disturbs me is why did we hire a guy with zero coaching experience in the first place? Does anyone in the NFL do this? This is the big time not high school. What possible could have been going through Dennis Green's thought process? When you see him hire a guy like this after firing an experienced coach 7 games into the season if has to make even the most strident Green supporter wonder what is going on here? I would think even the owners would pose this question to the Head Coach. I sure would. When you look at his resume under experience there is a big blank space. That would be like me walking into GE and asking for the job as CEO. Under experience I could say I once sold light bulbs.

Lindsay was already on staff as an assistant, we had to pay Wylie the full year anyways, so Green probably had little choice he probably wasn't going to find an experienced OL coach midway through the season and if he could, he probably had already spent the coaching budget for the year.

Retaining Lindsay THIS year is the real problem, Green could have easily replaced him this year in the offseason and demoted him back to assistant, but he didn't.

 

[Redheart]

Retaining Lindsay THIS year is the real problem, Green could have easily replaced him this year in the offseason and demoted him back to assistant, but he didn't.

I think Green gave Lindsay a chance and it didn't work out. If it had worked out it would not have been a problem, it would been "Green's great eye in spotting coaching-talent".

Hindsight is always perfect.

 

[john h]

Lindsay was already on staff as an assistant, we had to pay Wylie the full year anyways, so Green probably had little choice he probably wasn't going to find an experienced OL coach midway through the season and if he could, he probably had already spent the coaching budget for the year.

Retaining Lindsay THIS year is the real problem, Green could have easily replaced him this year in the offseason and demoted him back to assistant, but he didn't.

That makes some sense and sounds about right.

 

[Sandan]

I think Green gave Lindsay a chance and it didn't work out. If it had worked out it would not have been a problem, it would been "Green's great eye in spotting coaching-talent".

Hindsight is always perfect.

Sounds reasonable, but at least DG will admit when he is wrong and make changes. Mac did not like to do that.

Note: Replacing a coach he hired is an implicit acceptance of an error, public humilation by tar and feathering is not required.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think Green gave Lindsay a chance and it didn't work out. If it had worked out it would not have been a problem, it would been "Green's great eye in spotting coaching-talent".

Hindsight is always perfect.

True, but I've been complaining about Lindsay since the day Green reassigned Wylie as scout and promoted Lindsay. So I am not using hindsight when I point that out.

WHen we promoted him I did a quick check around the NFL from bios on websites and Lindsay was BY FAR the least experienced OL coach in the NFL, many of them serve 5 years or more as an assistant before getting the OL coach title. Lindsay had served 5 weeks, it was highly unusual.

 

[Russ Smith]

Sounds reasonable, but at least DG will admit when he is wrong and make changes. Mac did not like to do that.

Note: Replacing a coach he hired is an implicit acceptance of an error, public humilation by tar and feathering is not required.

My point was the fact that Lindsay was inexperienced was not new we knew that after his first year here, and Green still retained him this year. I remember complaining about that in the offseason and people said well the OL improved in 04 it was much better at the end of the year, so maybe Lindsay is a good coach. I suspect Green believed that too, but was overruled this year with all the OL problems we had.

 

[earthsci]

The thing about Lindsey that disturbs me is why did we hire a guy with zero coaching experience in the first place?

You seem to think that Mike Tice was OK. He had none until, let's see, who was it? Oh yeah Denny Green hired him.

 

[earthsci]

I thought he was DG's OL coach in Minn ?

Tice has been associated with the team since 1992, playing tight end from 1992-93 and 1995, coaching the tight ends in 1996 and the offensive line from 1997-2001.


http://www.nfl.com/teams/coaching/MIN

 

[john h]

You seem to think that Mike Tice was OK. He had none until, let's see, who was it? Oh yeah Denny Green hired him.

I never even thought about Mike Tice when he was hired by Green as I could care less about other teams coaches. Tice is now a proven coach and he will come up with a good job as either a Coordinator or even a HC. I just do not think the Cards should be in the business of training Coaches. We need to get the best we can as we have to much of a losing history. Our OL has been a known problem and an experienced coach was needed. I think Russ posted the best answer I have seen as to why Green hired Lindsey: When Green fired our OL coach he had to pay him for the remainder of the year so he did not have a budget to hire anyone. Add to that it was midseason. Green should have lived with his experienced coach for the year and fired him at the end of the year. I do not think he thought this through. He did not think through some of his other firings. He should have had replacements at least as good as those he fired. He seems to shoot from the hip.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I never even thought about Mike Tice when he was hired by Green as I could care less about other teams coaches. Tice is now a proven coach and he will come up with a good job as either a Coordinator or even a HC. I just do not think the Cards should be in the business of training Coaches. We need to get the best we can as we have to much of a losing history. Our OL has been a known problem and an experienced coach was needed. I think Russ posted the best answer I have seen as to why Green hired Lindsey: When Green fired our OL coach he had to pay him for the remainder of the year so he did not have a budget to hire anyone. Add to that it was midseason. Green should have lived with his experienced coach for the year and fired him at the end of the year. I do not think he thought this through. He did not think through some of his other firings. He should have had replacements at least as good as those he fired. He seems to shoot from the hip.

Really...

So Green should have kept a guy who was evidently in disagreement with him around.

What kind of message does that send to other coaches and the players?

There can be only one HEAD COACH on a team, and when he allows the "tail to wag the dog", whether it's a coach or player... he loses credibility and effective control.

I realize this is not the popular human resource mangement techniques in vogue today, but sport team mangement is a form of democratic fascism, always has been.

As a coach, even a player - you are expected to input, but in the end... the fascist... the Head Coach, has the final word.

No successful coach in professional sport has managed in any other way.

And, that includes "Weeping" Dick Vermeil.

Now, should Green have had a contingency? Well, evidently he thought he did in Lindsay, and the end of year decision is at least a partial admission, that he was overly optimistic.

However, we had 8 personnel variations on the O-line, and given the relative inexperience of the backups, I seriously doubt that another O-line coach could have done dramatically better, given this lack of continuity.

 

[john h]

Really...

So Green should have kept a guy who was evidently in disagreement with him around.

What kind of message does that send to other coaches and the players?

There can be only one HEAD COACH on a team, and when he allows the "tail to wag the dog", whether it's a coach or player... he loses credibility and effective control.

I realize this is not the popular human resource management techniques in vogue today, but sport team management is a form of democratic fascism, always has been.

As a coach, even a player - you are expected to input, but in the end... the fascist... the Head Coach, has the final word.

No successful coach in professional sport has managed in any other way.

And, that includes "Weeping" Dick Vermeil.

Now, should Green have had a contingency? Well, evidently he thought he did in Lindsay, and the end of year decision is at least a partial admission, that he was overly optimistic.

However, we had 8 personnel variations on the O-line, and given the relative inexperience of the backups, I seriously doubt that another O-line coach could have done dramatically better, given this lack of continuity.

There is an old saying "do not throw out the baby with the bath water". Was anyone on this board happy with the Lindsey signing as the offensive line coach? I doubt it and we are only amateurs. He did not have the experience going in and it was obvious. In the end it was still obvious or else he would not have been fired. This was a mistake that should not have happened. His contingency, if he really had one was terrible. I would hope the pilot of my aircraft or surgeon has a better contingency plan than that. As a Head Coach he gets paid millions to have contingency plans and he is expected to produce. Good leaders do not surround themselves with "yes" men or "yes" players. They should be open to opposing opinions and suggestions. If you fire everyone who disagrees with you then you stiffle all opinion which may have been worth listening to.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

There is an old saying "do not throw out the baby with the bath water". Was anyone on this board happy with the Lindsey signing as the offensive line coach? I doubt it and we are only amateurs. He did not have the experience going in and it was obvious. In the end it was still obvious or else he would not have been fired. This was a mistake that should not have happened. His contingency, if he really had one was terrible. I would hope the pilot of my aircraft or surgeon has a better contingency plan than that. As a Head Coach he gets paid millions to have contingency plans and he is expected to produce. Good leaders do not surround themselves with "yes" men or "yes" players. They should be open to opposing opinions and suggestions. If you fire everyone who disagrees with you then you stiffle all opinion which may have been worth listening to.

Yes, most are familiar with the saying, but its relevance to what follows or my post, certainly escapes me.

The fact that many on this board, the amateurs, as you say - were less than enamoured with the choice of Lindsay is irrelevant. Fans don't have a vote.

You can always hope your Doctor has a better contingency, but they bury 40 -- 50,000 of their mistakes every year... so don't count on it. As for your pilot, anology: When the engines go dead all he can offer is the suggestion that you put your ass between your legs and kiss it goodbye.

I specificaaly said, in my post, that inputs are needed and welcomed, but, in the end - the HC decides for one and all. One may keep the odd gadfly about, however, if this person can't get with the program... he's got to go.

This is basic management in pro sports, and as much as you may deplore... it will remain such because IT WORKS!

 

[Russ Smith]

On Wylie, the thing that I can't get past with Green is how in the hell do you take a new coaching job, interview candidates, and hire a guy who's never worked for you and find out AFTER hiring him, you don't agree at all on blocking schemes? Green almost always hires people he's worked with, Wylie was atypical in that regard. Was Green told to hire Wylie or did he literally interview and hire the guy without asking him what his philosophy was?

The other thing I never understood, Green's alleged first choice as OC was Jim Colletto, rumors abounded we wanted him, were going to hire him etc. INstead we hired Wood, and Colletto took the OL coach job with the Raiders. It would appear to me that OC is a "better" position than OL coach, did we simply offer less money? Colletto being an OL guy by nature may have been a better hire, much like I think Rowen will prove to be in the long run.

 

[john h]

Yes, most are familiar with the saying, but its relevance to what follows or my post, certainly escapes me.

The fact that many on this board, the amateurs, as you say - were less than enamoured with the choice of Lindsay is irrelevant. Fans don't have a vote.

You can always hope your Doctor has a better contingency, but they bury 40 -- 50,000 of their mistakes every year... so don't count on it. As for your pilot, anology: When the engines go dead all he can offer is the suggestion that you put your ass between your legs and kiss it goodbye.

I specifically said, in my post, that inputs are needed and welcomed, but, in the end - the HC decides for one and all. One may keep the odd gadfly about, however, if this person can't get with the program... he's got to go.

This is basic management in pro sports, and as much as you may deplore... it will remain such because IT WORKS!

The board is for posters to post their opinions so in fact what we think about Lindsey or any player is revelant. Nothing posted here is the final word or even a consideration to what happens in the real world. It is for entertainment. Pilots (I am one) always have a contingency plan if they are a true professional. If all your engines quit you know which way the wind is blowing so as to know which way to land. You know the nearest emergency airfields. You know your glide ratio so you know how far you can glide. You know your engine restart procedures. You know your fuel dumping procedures. On and on. "Throwing out the baby with the bath water": When you fired your experienced OL coach in midseason you had no choice but to hire an inexperienced coach/staff member. You eliminated your options. You threw out the baby with the bath water. Yes "amateurs" as I said unless someone on the board is a professional football coach. I think that applies to the majority of us. Basic management in pro sports does not always allow the head coach to fire and choose his assistants. Some do and some do not. I would suspect that Green got a lot of input on what to do with his coaching staff this year whether he liked it or not.

 

[Russ Smith]

The board is for posters to post their opinions so in fact what we think about Lindsey or any player is revelant. Nothing posted here is the final word or even a consideration to what happens in the real world. It is for entertainment. Pilots (I am one) always have a contingency plan if they are a true professional. If all your engines quit you know which way the wind is blowing so as to know which way to land. You know the nearest emergency airfields. You know your glide ratio so you know how far you can glide. You know your engine restart procedures. You know your fuel dumping procedures. On and on. "Throwing out the baby with the bath water": When you fired your experienced OL coach in midseason you had no choice but to hire an inexperienced coach/staff member. You eliminated your options. You threw out the baby with the bath water. Yes "amateurs" as I said unless someone on the board is a professional football coach. I think that applies to the majority of us. Basic management in pro sports does not always allow the head coach to fire and choose his assistants. Some do and some do not. I would suspect that Green got a lot of input on what to do with his coaching staff this year whether he liked it or not.

one point that should be added. Not long after Green promoted Lindsay, he hired Carl Hargrave as an "offensive consultant." Green said he wsa going to help Wood with the offense and specifically said he could help with the OL too. And this year that offensive genius was named.... TE coach?

I have no idea what we paid Hargrave as a consultant but any chance we may have had to replace Wylie last year midstream probably went away since we had to pay Hargrave.

A conspiracy lover might suggest that Green planned it that way so he could get his guy on board, but not me of course.

 

[john h]

one point that should be added. Not long after Green promoted Lindsay, he hired Carl Hargrave as an "offensive consultant." Green said he wsa going to help Wood with the offense and specifically said he could help with the OL too. And this year that offensive genius was named.... TE coach?

I have no idea what we paid Hargrave as a consultant but any chance we may have had to replace Wylie last year midstream probably went away since we had to pay Hargrave.

A conspiracy lover might suggest that Green planned it that way so he could get his guy on board, but not me of course.

I know nothing about Hargrave. Was he considered some sort of Guru? If he was he did not get a very high profile position for a Guru. Having worked with Consultants they are sometimes not well received by the staff as they wonder if he is there to take their job or get them fired.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

The board is for posters to post their opinions so in fact what we think about Lindsey or any player is revelant. Nothing posted here is the final word or even a consideration to what happens in the real world. It is for entertainment. Pilots (I am one) always have a contingency plan if they are a true professional. If all your engines quit you know which way the wind is blowing so as to know which way to land. You know the nearest emergency airfields. You know your glide ratio so you know how far you can glide. You know your engine restart procedures. You know your fuel dumping procedures. On and on. "Throwing out the baby with the bath water": When you fired your experienced OL coach in midseason you had no choice but to hire an inexperienced coach/staff member. You eliminated your options. You threw out the baby with the bath water. Yes "amateurs" as I said unless someone on the board is a professional football coach. I think that applies to the majority of us. Basic management in pro sports does not always allow the head coach to fire and choose his assistants. Some do and some do not. I would suspect that Green got a lot of input on what to do with his coaching staff this year whether he liked it or not.

Green did not eliminate his options, he exercised it when he could no longer abide his original choice.

As a result, Lindsay was put in a bit of an impossible situation... as anyone would be... given all of the injuries to the O-line.

No doubt, he was an inexperienced coach, but the man trained as an offensive lineman in high school, college and years in the NFL. By simple osmosis he probably knew an awful lot about coaching the position.

He didn't get the job done, and he's gone. So be it.

P.S. With all of those contingencies you pilots make, it's a wonder there is ever a plane crash...

 

[Russ Smith]

I know nothing about Hargrave. Was he considered some sort of Guru? If he was he did not get a very high profile position for a Guru. Having worked with Consultants they are sometimes not well received by the staff as they wonder if he is there to take their job or get them fired.

Hargrave is Green's buddy, they've been friends for years, he worked for him in Minnesota, and has never held an NFL job that he didn't get from Green.

Hargrave worked for Green at Northwestern 20 years ago and was mainly a college coach, WR's or TE's until Green hired him at Minnesota. He was the RB coach there most of his time. After Green lost his job Hargrave was the DC for Lindenwood University in Missouri for 2 years, before Green hired him as offensive consultant.

Green said Hargrave's main role was to help Wood with the offense because he was experienced with it, Wood wasn't, and it would help us fine tune the offense. He also said that Hargrave was going to help Lindsay with the OL.

Then this offseason we fired Wood, and a bunch of us speculated that Hargrave might be named OC, but instead we hired Rowen, and made Hargrave the TE coach(where he had experience).

Consultant was not in the business sense where you bring in an outside person to look at everything you do and make recommendations, consultant meant he wasn't allowed to hire him as a coach midseason. This year he became the TE coach and with Rowen on board, we needed no offensive consultant.