Having a Real Hard Time Talking Myself into the 2011 Cardinals

crisper57

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How many teams in the NFL were affected by the lockout? 32.

How many teams in the NFL are starting different quarterbacks in 2011 than they did in 2010? 9 (and that's not counting guys like Matt Stafford, Colt McCoy, Jason Campbell, Mike Vick, and Alex Smith who either missed large portions of the season or were benched/not starting at points throughout the year).

How did Aaron Rodgers do when he came off the bench into a starting role? How about Phillip Rivers? Did they play below-average when they had only played in or started a handful of games? How about Tony Romo? He was an undrafted free agent and only sat for three years before being named the starter.

How many teams in the NFC West have new coordinators on one side of the ball or another? All four of them.

How many teams in the NFL have all new coaching staffs? Five, and that doesn't count teams where they promoted coordinators like the Vikings, Raiders, and Cowboys.

They are excuses, not reasons. Every team in the NFL has issues heading into the season. Every team has turnover (although 28 teams in the NFL had less turnover than the Arizona Cardinals over the last two years). Every team had to prepare a roster on short notice.

The Cards play four (FOUR!) tune-up games to begin the season against squads that should be no worse than even against them. If the Cards don't come out of the first month of the season at least 3-1, then there are going to be problems this year. And there aren't any excuses for that.

I agree with everything except the bolded part above. The QB's you named came up with a single team and got to learn about the team they would eventually lead.

Kolb came up in a different system and is having to learn ours on short notice. I think that difference is going to be crucial if he struggles, and admirable if he excels.
 

AzStevenCal

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How many teams in the NFL were affected by the lockout? 32.

It stands to reason that a shortened preseason will affect some teams more than others.

How many teams in the NFL are starting different quarterbacks in 2011 than they did in 2010? 9 (and that's not counting guys like Matt Stafford, Colt McCoy, Jason Campbell, Mike Vick, and Alex Smith who either missed large portions of the season or were benched/not starting at points throughout the year).

What's your point here? A lot of those teams will finish below us for many of the same reasons that we might struggle. And how many of the guys you're talking about have more (and sometimes MUCH more) experience than Kolb does.

How did Aaron Rodgers do when he came off the bench into a starting role? How about Phillip Rivers? Did they play below-average when they had only played in or started a handful of games? How about Tony Romo? He was an undrafted free agent and only sat for three years before being named the starter.

Are you really suggesting that because an inexperienced QB played well early in his career that therefore all inexperienced QB's should play well when given the chance? Also, are you really expecting Kolb to play up to the standards of Rodgers and Rivers - two of the best in the game? Not to mention those two guys played considerably better as they gained experience. Perhaps I'm mistaken but IIRC, the Chargers weren't immediately in love with Drew Brees either and he turned out to be pretty good.

How many teams in the NFC West have new coordinators on one side of the ball or another? All four of them.

Sure and that's one of the reasons I expect the Cards to be competitive against what will once again likely be one of the weakest divisions in the history of the NFL.

How many teams in the NFL have all new coaching staffs? Five, and that doesn't count teams where they promoted coordinators like the Vikings, Raiders, and Cowboys. They are excuses, not reasons. Every team in the NFL has issues heading into the season. Every team has turnover (although 28 teams in the NFL had less turnover than the Arizona Cardinals over the last two years). Every team had to prepare a roster on short notice.

Yes, they do and that is why a lot of the teams in the NFL will have disappointing seasons. The teams that have little turnover and are fairly stable in their coaching staffs and systems will enter the season with a greater advantage than would normally be the case. It doesn't mean a team can't overcome those problems but the more obstacles you have in front of you the more likely you are to stumble. How many teams have changed coordinators on both sides of the ball, suffered key injuries, brought in an inexperienced QB and did this with a squad that won only 5 games the season before against weak competition?

We were a horrible team last year and we look to have improved but it is not unreasonable to recognize that this team might fall a little short of it's potential for the reasons given. If we win 4 or 5 games then I'd agree with you, there is no excuse for that. However, there are plenty of reasons to finish with somewhere between 7 and 9 wins.

The Cards play four (FOUR!) tune-up games to begin the season against squads that should be no worse than even against them. If the Cards don't come out of the first month of the season at least 3-1, then there are going to be problems this year. And there aren't any excuses for that.

I seriously doubt they will come out of the first 4 games with 3 or more wins. IMO, they have a better chance of coming out with FEWER than 2 wins than they do of winning at least 3. I think you're going to have plenty of ammunition in a few weeks but you're setting yourself up for it. You've decided in advance to ignore the reasons this team will probably struggle even though you have already stated that you expect the team to struggle.

Steve
 
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Cbus cardsfan

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I'm not sure where you're getting your info on Terrance Cody. I'm looking at the Ravens website and I'm seeing things like this:

http://blogs.baltimoreravens.com/2011/09/05/2011-ravens-roster-breakdown/
I don't much of anything into bloggers. You accuse Urban of being a homer, which he is, but how do you know this guy isn't the same way. I'm just saying, just because it's on a website doesn't make it so. Also, I will take your AFC North/ NFC East bet. Two teams from each division are not going 4-0 against the NFC West. Also, the Niners are not criminally underrated. Alex Smith stinks and I don't know why you can't admit that. If he played like that for the Cards you'd be all over him. He's a loser. The "all-in" Cards could just as easily win the division as finish 3rd. Actually, I think the niners and Seahawks have 3rd-4th locked up so, it's probably actually easier to finish 1st.
 

Cardiac

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I agree with everything except the bolded part above. The QB's you named came up with a single team and got to learn about the team they would eventually lead.

Kolb came up in a different system and is having to learn ours on short notice. I think that difference is going to be crucial if he struggles, and admirable if he excels.

Don't mess with K9's style of manipulating statements for effect.

I team that has had coaching changes and a good deal of roster turn over in this offseason is at a disadvantage to any team that did not experience these issues.

We have no excuse against the Panthers.

The Redskins didn't have coach TO and we are playing them on the road on the east coast. Traveling coast to coast has proven to be a disadvantage for just about any team. Having said that I will be very dissapointed in a loss.

We play the Seahawks in their house which is the loudest in the NFL. I still expect us to win that game.

The Giants haven't had a coach TO but are traveling coast to coast and have huge injury issues in the secondary.

The Vikings game is on the road but we should be over most of the learning curve on both sides of the ball. It will depend on how McNabb is playing this year.

We have a bye week before playing the Steelers and it is in our house so "excuse making" time should be behind us.

I fully expect to lose to the Ravens based on coast to coast travel, the Steelers game will be VERY physical and the Ravens are a quality team.

The rest of the schedule is pretty much in our favor except that we play 3 road games in a row so expect at least one loss.

Not sure if I'm making excuses or stating the reality of the situation.
 

Krangodnzr

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Who did people want in Round 1? Jerry Hughes?

I'm not sure where you're getting your info on Terrance Cody. I'm looking at the Ravens website and I'm seeing things like this:

http://blogs.baltimoreravens.com/2011/09/05/2011-ravens-roster-breakdown/



It's not like Kelly Gregg was some stiff. He was an anchor for that line for a long time.

I'm definitely not getting my info from the Ravens website. If you had read the Cardinals website when Josh McCown was the starting QB, you would've seen that he was the next Brett Favre.

I read that information from one of the football websites, can't remember which one, but they said he's basically been terrible since letting Gregg go.

Letting go of Gregg is the normal TTP for the Ravens (old player, young replacement on hand) but it doesn't always work out for them either.
 

Krangodnzr

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Sigh.

The other thing for me is that I think that turnover fatigue is really starting to fit in. For a long time, you could argue that the departures of guys like Ray Thompson, L.J. Shelton, Ronald McKinnon, Kyle Vanden Bosch, Marcel Shipp, etc., were good for the team because whomever replaces them couldn't possibly be worse than the guys who left. Even David Boston probably wore out his welcome here, and Thomas Jones was never going to get used the right way here or been motivated to be the player he became after he left.

I agree to an extent, but I think we've moved on to the model of letting go of the guys you can let go of that will command too much money (Breaston) when you have comparable players on the roster (Roberts/Doucet). Even good teams take that leap of faith on an annual basis. It becomes problematic when you let Boston walk and David Gilmore and Jason McAddley are the replacements, which is clearly not the case here.

Dansby is the loss that hurts. It forced us to HAVE TO draft Washington, and while I like Washington, he's not Karlos Dansby. But I think Dansby wanted to walk and got his wish and that's just the way profootball works sometimes.

I was even willing to give the new coaching staff the benefit of the doubt on Leonard Davis, because Russ Grimm came in with such a great rep. Five years later, it seems pretty clear that Davis was exactly what this team looks for in a LT (big, doesn't have to run much), and we wasted five years trying to get Levi Brown as good as Leonard Davis at either tackle position (and he's still not there).

IMO this is the most maddening personnel non-move that this team has made. Relying on Grimm's ability to shape and mold nothings into a respectable line is getting old. We need to bring in some talent at LT.

As much as I respect Whisenhunt, his stubbornness gets the better of him at times. But based on that comment from Fitzgerald during the draft about Whisenhunt coming to the conclusion that we should've drafted BPA instead of taking Levi Brown, I think he's changing in that regard. IMO this draft was a huge success, because we took good talent at every position and didn't reach. You could argue that Housler was a reach, but early results show that he might be pretty darn good once he learns to block.

IMO we should just go ahead and start Bridges at LT and make finding a LT a priority next offseason.

But in the last two years we've seen good players leave for nothing and they were replaced with players who were inferior. My favorite players on the Super Bowl team were Dansby, Fitz, Dockett, Wilson, and Deuce. I bought a Matt Leinart jersey the day that we drafted him, and a Rolle jersey was my first "new" jersey. Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie was my wife's favorite player and electrifying to watch his first two seasons.

Not quite true. We turned a Boldin that we weren't going to resign into ammunition to bring in DWash and Rhodes, who obviously replaced Rolle. We've resigned Sendlein and Fitzgerald, and for the most part, our core of players will stick around. I have confidence we'll be able to resign Campbell since he seems to like the team and we will have the franchise tag to work with.

Leinart was a bust, plain and simple. Huge mistake. He doesn't have the mental makeup to be an elite starting QB.

Now two of my favorite players are gone, Wilson is clearly on the downside of his career, and Deuce is riding pine for a guy who was at best non-descript in the preseason and wasn't good enough to start last year.

I know we've debated on this endlessly, but Deuce showed up to camp at nearly 400 lbs! At some point in his career he needs to show that he wants to do what it takes to be a very good player and show some dedication to his craft. When Deuce turns it on, he can be a very good, Pro Bowl caliber player. But that Deuce doesn't always show up, and his dedication is obviously in question if he can't keep the weight off.

Hadnot has had a good preseason, has shown dedication by NOT showing up fat. He has done everything the staff has asked of him. But I think ultimately Deuce will replace him because when push comes to shove, the good Deuce is better than the good Hadnot. And as stubborn as this coaching staff can be, they generally make these moves at some point in the season.

This coaching staff has no credibility with me on the issue of player acquisition and development. I can't get excited for Kevin Kolb until he actually does something against someone good (completing 62% of his passes and moving the offense Sunday would be a good start) and I'm skeptical of Daryl Washington in this system right now (BTW--there would probably no bigger beneficiary of a Tampa-2 conversion than Washington; this coaching staff continues to try and fit square pegs into round holes). Calais Campbell is poised to leave in free agency next year.

As much as you want to paint me as a cheerleader, I'm in the show me category right now. But dude, c'mon, we had Derrick Anderson QBing this team last year. He was directly responsible for about 3-4 losses last year. As much as an unknown as Kevin Kolb is, he's better than Derek Anderson. He's proven that in his starts.

D Wash will be used as the playmaking LB and as long as the line can keep blockers off him, he'll have a very good year. He's not a traditional take on blocks kind of ILB, but neither was Dansby.

Again, we will have the leverage (franchise tag) with Campbell, and every thing I see points to us keeping him around at least one more season. I wouldn't be surprised if we resigned him during the year.

Oh, and Dan Williams is fat and getting pushed for playing time by a 7th round pick from UCLA who wasn't even listed in a ton of draft guides. Every unknown draft pick can't be a steal, and it's frequently a bad sign when all of your draft picks make the roster.

Better than a lot of teams that kept a ton of UDFAs on their roster. This year had the most since 2003. I'd rather all our draft picks make the roster (which isn't true) than to have cut them for UDFAs.

David Carter, from everything we've seen, earned his playing time. No reason to get hung up on his 6th round status, Carter has played like a legitimate NFL lineman this offseason.

I don't think that an 8-8 record wins the division this year, and I think that people are criminally underrating the 49ers. Alex Smith is an average quarterback right now by all statistical measures, and he does have weapons in the passing game in Crabtree, Edwards, and Vernon Davis. They play their toughest AFC North games (Baltimore and Pittsburgh) at home this year.

Crabtree is coming off a broken foot, and is now coming up on borderline bust status, considering he was a top ten pick and has played nowhere close to top ten status. I think you're not looking at the fact that the Niners have let go of Aubrayo Franklin and Takeo Spikes, two of their best defenders last year. They're also running a brand new system this year for like the 10th time this decade.

I see the Niners as a 4-6 win ball club, based on all the turnover of the offseason.

The "All In" Arizona Cardinals could end up in 3rd place in the NFC West, and I'm not looking forward to the litany of excuses that will come mid-season (lockout, Kolb's still becoming familiar with the offense, injuries in the secondary, new Defensive Coordinator, Joey Porter is at least trying hard, etc., etc.).

I think this is the easy answer. Obviously if you predict, nearly every year, that the Cardinals are going to be a 3rd or 4th place finish, you'd be correct. This team has some warts, but if some of the young players step up (I'm looking at your Schohawk and Jefferson), this team could be pretty good. The stars have to align just right, but the Cardinals at least have answers lately unlike the early 2000's where Emmitt Smith and Jeff Blake were going to be saviors and UDFAs were filling starting roles.

Looking at all the changes to teams in the NFC West, the Cardinals are the most improved. The Rams could argue that they are, but they're still missing a big time WR to catapult that offense forward.
 
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kerouac9

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I'll respond to you in more detail later, Krang, but one thing you need to have perfectly clear: we are not placing the franchise tag on Calais Campbell, this year or any other year.

You understand that Campbell is a DE. So he'd be given the average of the top 5 salaries among the defensive ends in the NFL. So... He'd be given the average salary of Charles Johnson, Julius Peppers, maybe Mario Williams, maybe Elvis Dumervil, probably the Mullet up in Minnesota.

Are the Cards really going to place the Franchise Tag on Calais Campbell, who would do well to get 8 sacks this season, and pay him with guys who get 12-15 sacks per year?
 

Chopper0080

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I'll respond to you in more detail later, Krang, but one thing you need to have perfectly clear: we are not placing the franchise tag on Calais Campbell, this year or any other year.

You understand that Campbell is a DE. So he'd be given the average of the top 5 salaries among the defensive ends in the NFL. So... He'd be given the average salary of Charles Johnson, Julius Peppers, maybe Mario Williams, maybe Elvis Dumervil, probably the Mullet up in Minnesota.

Are the Cards really going to place the Franchise Tag on Calais Campbell, who would do well to get 8 sacks this season, and pay him with guys who get 12-15 sacks per year?

Calais Campbell will be very interesting as Horton brings in a Pittsburgh defensive scheme that places an emphasis on LB's over DLmen. Now, with Campbell's age and if he proves that he can play within the scheme, the Cards might go outside the blueprint and make Campbell a big offer, but he will have to show that he can hold the line of scrimmage and occupy offensive linemen as this defense seems to call for. Honestly, he seems to do it better than Dockett and if he can become more consistent, he might be a better player in this scheme. Side note, with all the huge contracts going up, we will have Dockett for a bargain rate soon enough.
 

Chopper0080

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I remember seeing quite a few posters still bitch about drafting D. Williams instead of taking Cody in round 2 (and not taking Washington).

Either way, my point remains. A NT still has to be in shape to be effective.

We need to be more like BJ Raji inthe fact that Raji is big, but also in shape. (had the highest % of snaps played last year by a DT)
 
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kerouac9

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Calais Campbell will be very interesting as Horton brings in a Pittsburgh defensive scheme that places an emphasis on LB's over DLmen. Now, with Campbell's age and if he proves that he can play within the scheme, the Cards might go outside the blueprint and make Campbell a big offer, but he will have to show that he can hold the line of scrimmage and occupy offensive linemen as this defense seems to call for. Honestly, he seems to do it better than Dockett and if he can become more consistent, he might be a better player in this scheme. Side note, with all the huge contracts going up, we will have Dockett for a bargain rate soon enough.

That's the other thing: Just like the Cards couldn't pay Antrel Rolle more than they were paying Adrian Wilson, like they couldn't pay Anquan Boldin more than Larry Fitzgerald, the Cards can't pay Calais Campbell more than Darnell Dockett.

And I agree with you that Campbell is much, much better at playing two-gap football than Dockett. Dockett's too short to really play that edge in the Pittsburgh scheme. If the Cards were really All In on the season, they would've hired Wade Phillips. Does anyone think that Wade would've said that Joey Porter could still play?
 

Duckjake

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I remember seeing quite a few posters still bitch about drafting D. Williams instead of taking Cody in round 2 (and not taking Washington).

Either way, my point remains. A NT still has to be in shape to be effective.

I can't remember one single poster ever bitching about taking Williams over Cody. If I remember correctly the debate was not Cody v Williams it was more like Jerry Hughes v Williams and that the Cards desperately needed a NT without much regard as to the player. In fact there were as many Linval Joseph takes as TCody.

Either way your point is a nt has to be in shape to be effective????? Hard to miss on that take when you don't define "in shape". We don't need a Darnell Dockett or an Adrian Wilson at NT. We need a big guy who can not be moved. Period.
 

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I can't remember one single poster ever bitching about taking Williams over Cody. If I remember correctly the debate was not Cody v Williams it was more like Jerry Hughes v Williams and that the Cards desperately needed a NT without much regard as to the player. In fact there were as many Linval Joseph takes as TCody.

Either way your point is a nt has to be in shape to be effective????? Hard to miss on that take when you don't define "in shape". We don't need a Darnell Dockett or an Adrian Wilson at NT. We need a big guy who can not be moved. Period.

By "in shape" he means the guy can stay on the field without needing to be spelled every other play because he's totally gassed. In shape from a cardio standpoint. Doesnt matter how good you are when you are sitting on the sideline.
 

JeffGollin

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We don't need a Darnell Dockett or an Adrian Wilson at NT. We need a big guy who can not be moved. Period.
I've traditionally felt the same way, but something occurs to me going into this year:

We won't know whether the "big dude in the middle" dictum is true until we see Horton's defense in all its glory. For all we know, he may prefer three "smaller" (285 - 305 lb), mobile D-linemen flying around rather than a big space-eater flanked by two tree-trunks.
 

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I'll respond to you in more detail later, Krang, but one thing you need to have perfectly clear: we are not placing the franchise tag on Calais Campbell, this year or any other year.

You understand that Campbell is a DE. So he'd be given the average of the top 5 salaries among the defensive ends in the NFL. So... He'd be given the average salary of Charles Johnson, Julius Peppers, maybe Mario Williams, maybe Elvis Dumervil, probably the Mullet up in Minnesota.

Are the Cards really going to place the Franchise Tag on Calais Campbell, who would do well to get 8 sacks this season, and pay him with guys who get 12-15 sacks per year?

That's a good point, and one I have considered, but I think at the end of the day Campbell is really important to this defense.

We have a bad defense right now, but take out Calais Campbell and it's by far the worst defense in the NFL. Remember the talk about Branch last year possibly replacing Campbell? He was taking significant amount of snaps from him early on in the season, but Calais showed how much better he was than Branch.

Ultimately I think we sign him during the year. He's better than Dockett and I think the team will realize that this year and will not let him walk.
 

Krangodnzr

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We need to be more like BJ Raji inthe fact that Raji is big, but also in shape. (had the highest % of snaps played last year by a DT)

Agreed. This talk of just having a huge fat boy is overrated. I want a huge guy that is also in great shape who can not only shut down the inside run, but also collapse the pocket as well.
 

Krangodnzr

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By "in shape" he means the guy can stay on the field without needing to be spelled every other play because he's totally gassed. In shape from a cardio standpoint. Doesnt matter how good you are when you are sitting on the sideline.

LOL yeah exactly. I don't know what's so obtuse about the term in shape. Deuce Lutui has been "in shape" at 335 lbs.

Dumpster Dan has looked out of shape in the preseason, sucking wind after every play, and not always looking effective. That's why you take a stand against players showing up out of shape, it can have a negative snowball effect. If we're to get back to winning the NFC West, we need all the players on the roster to play and to be in game shape.
 

Duckjake

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LOL yeah exactly. I don't know what's so obtuse about the term in shape. Deuce Lutui has been "in shape" at 335 lbs.

Dumpster Dan has looked out of shape in the preseason, sucking wind after every play, and not always looking effective. That's why you take a stand against players showing up out of shape, it can have a negative snowball effect. If we're to get back to winning the NFC West, we need all the players on the roster to play and to be in game shape.

Nonsense. Big Dan has looked awesome in preseason.

A 3-4 NT doesn't have to run guys down sideline to sideline. He has one responsibility and that is to hold the middle with 600lbs of offensive linemen leaning on him.
 
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By "in shape" he means the guy can stay on the field without needing to be spelled every other play because he's totally gassed. In shape from a cardio standpoint. Doesnt matter how good you are when you are sitting on the sideline.

You have ANY proof that Dan Williams has to be spelled every other play because he's totally gassed? I have proof that Big Dan is a load to move and as such makes our defense better.
 

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I'll respond to you in more detail later, Krang, but one thing you need to have perfectly clear: we are not placing the franchise tag on Calais Campbell, this year or any other year.

You understand that Campbell is a DE. So he'd be given the average of the top 5 salaries among the defensive ends in the NFL. So... He'd be given the average salary of Charles Johnson, Julius Peppers, maybe Mario Williams, maybe Elvis Dumervil, probably the Mullet up in Minnesota.

Are the Cards really going to place the Franchise Tag on Calais Campbell, who would do well to get 8 sacks this season, and pay him with guys who get 12-15 sacks per year?

completely agreed. ouchie and i were talking and scratching our heads talking about this last night. do people not realize that he's Campbell's a DE and what that cost is at the franchise tag rate? even if he just signed the one year tender? that is in no way a possibility in my opinion.
 

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That's a good point, and one I have considered, but I think at the end of the day Campbell is really important to this defense.

if he's that important, the team needs to get him signed to an extension during the season, plan and simple. If he's another cardinal to hit FA, if they're forced to slap the franchise tag on him as a DE, he'll be grossly over-paid... and we won't slap that on him anyway. which means he'll walk.

forward thinking, pro-active teams get his deal done before he hits FA. he'll be a really good case to see if this team has turned the corner on re-signing it's "core" players that are solid young guy, but not multiple time Pro-Bowlers (like Fitz, Dock and Wilson who are seemingly the only guys to get extensions from this club in recent years).
 

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I can't remember one single poster ever bitching about taking Williams over Cody. If I remember correctly the debate was not Cody v Williams it was more like Jerry Hughes v Williams and that the Cards desperately needed a NT without much regard as to the player. In fact there were as many Linval Joseph takes as TCody.

Either way your point is a nt has to be in shape to be effective????? Hard to miss on that take when you don't define "in shape". We don't need a Darnell Dockett or an Adrian Wilson at NT. We need a big guy who can not be moved. Period.

I wanted Cody over Dan Williams.

Neither one has established themselves but in the end...I think Cody will be a better pro.
 

Jetstream Green

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they stepped up to keep Sendlein

Cheesebeef- "forward thinking, pro-active teams get his deal done before he hits FA. he'll be a really good case to see if this team has turned the corner on re-signing it's "core" players that are solid young guy, but not multiple time Pro-Bowlers (like Fitz, Dock and Wilson who are seemingly the only guys to get extensions from this club in recent years)."

I think they showed that with C lyle sendlein, but you have points on what it will cost to keep Campbell using a franchise tag
 

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if he's that important, the team needs to get him signed to an extension during the season, plan and simple. If he's another cardinal to hit FA, if they're forced to slap the franchise tag on him as a DE, he'll be grossly over-paid... and we won't slap that on him anyway. which means he'll walk.

forward thinking, pro-active teams get his deal done before he hits FA. he'll be a really good case to see if this team has turned the corner on re-signing it's "core" players that are solid young guy, but not multiple time Pro-Bowlers (like Fitz, Dock and Wilson who are seemingly the only guys to get extensions from this club in recent years).

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now, but sure it is a priority this season to give Calais an extension.
 
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