Having a Real Hard Time Talking Myself into the 2011 Cardinals

[kerouac9]

Ugh. Enough with the snide comments, dude. You do realize teams had to pass on the Steelers because they couldn't run against them, right? That "worst unit" was simply due to circumstance, and that "worst unit" still ranked 12th in the league.

I agree (and I implied as much several times) that Horton is an unknown commodity; however, I don't think I've seen as much dedication and devotion thus far in a Cardinals' DC in a while. He could very well fall flat on his face, but it's hard to believe we'll be just as bad or worse than last season.

As for talent, I look at Dockett, Campbell, Wilson and Rhodes as pro bowl caliber players. I see D-Wash, Scho, and Peterson as guys with great upside. I am confident in D. Williams and Bradley (who will supplant Lenon eventually). I am in "wait and see" mode with AJ Jefferson, although it's kind of interesting to hear Horton talk about him like he's his first born son. It will be intriguing to see what he has in store starting Sunday (for which I will be flying in to attend [club seats, baby]).

Certainly, we have our deficiencies on defense, especially at OLB and corner; however, I am not closing the casket (especially in Week 1) on the defense. I wouldn't devalue the impact of a new DC who takes over for one who was downright awful and was questioned publicly by his own players. I don't think inspiration is the question, it's game planning at this point.

I actually agree with this, although if you have two Pro Bowl safeties and two Pro Bowl 3-4 DEs (and 3-4 DEs rarely if ever go to the Pro Bowl--Dockett is listed as a Tackle), then you have a quadrangle of mediocrity for your defense overall. The personnel that we have don't fit the system that we're running.

If I had my druthers (and we had a strong GM) we'd have a Tampa-2 style DC move in and install Dockett at the three-technique and have Campbell play strong-side DE. We still wouldn't have a rush end, but we at least would have a better shot at one in free agency (pursuing Julius Pepper two years ago or Andre Carter this year would have helped). It would benefit both safeties and probably allow Peterson to make better use of his physicality than he will sitting deep on every play in Pitt's zone fire D.

I don't think inspiration is the question; I know that talent is. According to Urban on this week's Cards Underground, the coaching staff is deeply in love with the medicore talent of Paris Lenon, and fans shouldn't be so quick to expect that Stewart Bradley is going to move into the starting lineup.

I'm stoked to go to the game Sunday. I think that Cam Newton is going to be worth the price of admission for his entire career. I think the key to the game is going to be Andre Roberts of all people. The #2 corner for Carolina is Captain Munnerlyn. 5'8", 186 lbs. If Roberts can't take advantage of single coverage against the likes of the Michael Adams of the NFC South, then this is going to be a long season indeed.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I actually agree with this, although if you have two Pro Bowl safeties and two Pro Bowl 3-4 DEs (and 3-4 DEs rarely if ever go to the Pro Bowl--Dockett is listed as a Tackle), then you have a quadrangle of mediocrity for your defense overall. The personnel that we have don't fit the system that we're running.

If I had my druthers (and we had a strong GM) we'd have a Tampa-2 style DC move in and install Dockett at the three-technique and have Campbell play strong-side DE.

Agree with all of this. I was definitely disturbed when I heard that Dockett was unhappy with his role. Apparently the DE's in this system are primarily there to occupy lineman, so LB's can make plays. Seems to be a poor fit for personnel when your two best defensive players are DE's.

 

[Duckjake]

You do realize teams had to pass on the Steelers because they couldn't run against them

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard this.

Just because your opponents have to pass doesn't mean they have to be successful at it.

Same goes for discounting offensive passing numbers saying that the team was behind all the time so they passed more.

We threw the ball all over the place last year and still sucked at passing.

 

[Shane]

screw you Shane!

Beer please!

 

[TJ]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard this.

Just because your opponents have to pass doesn't mean they have to be successful at it.

Same goes for discounting offensive passing numbers saying that the team was behind all the time so they passed more.

All that would relate to was an increase in attempts.

No, but conventional wisdom would say that if you were to throw the ball enough times, you're bound to connect every once in a while.

Remember the 2006 Vikings? Awesome run defense. When we played them, literally, we ran the ball four times the entire game (setting an NFL record in the process). Leinart had 402 yards passing that game simply because he had to air it out a million times.

It's all about game plan and anyone who knows anything about the NFL knows the Steelers have a tough run defense and the only fathomable way to have success is to pass, which is why Baltimore tried to load up on receivers last season.

 

[Jetstream Green]

we won 5 games last year, 5 freaking games. Tells me that Dansby might have been the most important player on this defense or at the very least the same level as Wilson in importance. The cruddy QB play did factor in to both sides of the ball and hopefully Kolb just being around average this year will help. When I talk about losing Dansby, that is just to make this a adequate defense. I think all the coaches we had on defense stunk it up and gambled like crazy and in a professional sport you are going to lose more than you win when you gamble to the extremes like our defense did. I'm also not saying that playing aggressive is the same as gambling like a mad man with trick schemes. One thing I do not understand is this. Why is it so important that we run a 3-4 when we still have the talent to run a 4-3 but lack the LBs to run a 3-4 by what we have seen so far. I think the 3-4 is a defense you can only excel at when you are blessed with elite players at the LB position and only a few teams are capable of this. Maybe the young players can do it eventually and it has to start somewhere at the position, but currently us running a 3-4 is like trying to run a passing offense that is void of quality WRs.

Maybe it really comes down to coaching, and I think Horton can be better than the recent past because the recent past was not good in my opinion. Dockett, Campbell, Rhodes and so on are good players and Horton did not seem to think this team was that lacking in talent when he took the position. We will see only after we reach the mid-way point of this season. I still see this team able to have a winning record because I think the quality of play in the NFL is not that great removed from a few number of teams. It does not seem as good as NFL teams in the '80s. Maybe it is ongoing effects of free agency and the constant turn over and impatience for instant results in the league, but it is what it is.

 

[kerouac9]

No, but conventional wisdom would say that if you were to throw the ball enough times, you're bound to connect every once in a while.

Remember the 2006 Vikings? Awesome run defense. When we played them, literally, we ran the ball four times the entire game (setting an NFL record in the process). Leinart had 402 yards passing that game simply because he had to air it out a million times.

It's all about game plan and anyone who knows anything about the NFL knows the Steelers have a tough run defense and the only fathomable way to have success is to pass, which is why Baltimore tried to load up on receivers last season.

To be fair to TJ, Duck, the Steelers' D gave up a league-low 6.4 YPA last season, and the third-fewest passing TDs (15). It's a good D, and a good pass D, but part of that is that it's supported by an excellent front-seven, and it is rare indeed that a Pittsburgh DB goes elsewhere and has great success outside of the comforting blanket of that pass rush.

My biggest concern is that Horton's unit had the least to do with that pass rush or run defense, and was the greatest beneficiary of it. There's a reason he was our third choice for DC.

 

[Duckjake]

No, but conventional wisdom would say that if you were to throw the ball enough times, you're bound to connect every once in a while.

Remember the 2006 Vikings? Awesome run defense. When we played them, literally, we ran the ball four times the entire game (setting an NFL record in the process). Leinart had 402 yards passing that game simply because he had to air it out a million times.

It's all about game plan and anyone who knows anything about the NFL knows the Steelers have a tough run defense and the only fathomable way to have success is to pass, which is why Baltimore tried to load up on receivers last season.

But that still doesn't make it automatic that if you can't run you can be successful passing unless the other teams pass defense is suspect. The Vikings finished 6-10 because their pass defense was the worst in the NFL.

 

[gmabel830]

I actually agree with this, although if you have two Pro Bowl safeties and two Pro Bowl 3-4 DEs (and 3-4 DEs rarely if ever go to the Pro Bowl--Dockett is listed as a Tackle), then you have a quadrangle of mediocrity for your defense overall. The personnel that we have don't fit the system that we're running.

If I had my druthers (and we had a strong GM) we'd have a Tampa-2 style DC move in and install Dockett at the three-technique and have Campbell play strong-side DE. We still wouldn't have a rush end, but we at least would have a better shot at one in free agency (pursuing Julius Pepper two years ago or Andre Carter this year would have helped). It would benefit both safeties and probably allow Peterson to make better use of his physicality than he will sitting deep on every play in Pitt's zone fire D.

I don't think inspiration is the question; I know that talent is. According to Urban on this week's Cards Underground, the coaching staff is deeply in love with the medicore talent of Paris Lenon, and fans shouldn't be so quick to expect that Stewart Bradley is going to move into the starting lineup.

I'm stoked to go to the game Sunday. I think that Cam Newton is going to be worth the price of admission for his entire career. I think the key to the game is going to be Andre Roberts of all people. The #2 corner for Carolina is Captain Munnerlyn. 5'8", 186 lbs. If Roberts can't take advantage of single coverage against the likes of the Michael Adams of the NFC South, then this is going to be a long season indeed.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Tampa-2 type defense either, and I recall either Wolf or Juercki saying that David Carter would be perfect in the 3-technique (to spell Dockett) - I think Daryl Washington could thrive in this type of defense also in addition to the benefits to the secondary that you mentioned. Would definitely need a pass rusher at DE - maybe Simeon Rice could come back!!

I think the average talented Lenon could also stick in the starting lineup with Bradley getting snaps both inside and outside and playing all over the field.

Finally, glad I'm not the only one ridiculously excited about Sunday. I ditched my season tix in 421 for two of my firm's loft seats. So, first regular season game + FREE BEER!!! Only downside is that I'll probably get fired for screaming too loud and swearing in front of big wig client executives. GOOOO BIG RED!!!!

 

[Duckjake]

To be fair to TJ, Duck, the Steelers' D gave up a league-low 6.4 YPA last season, and the third-fewest passing TDs (15). It's a good D, and a good pass D, but part of that is that it's supported by an excellent front-seven, and it is rare indeed that a Pittsburgh DB goes elsewhere and has great success outside of the comforting blanket of that pass rush.

My biggest concern is that Horton's unit had the least to do with that pass rush or run defense, and was the greatest beneficiary of it. There's a reason he was our third choice for DC.

Where in your post does it address the issue that just because you force other teams to pass all the time they have to be successful at it. TJ was saying that Horton's secondary DIDN'T put up the greatest numbers because other teams had to pass because they couldn't run. So I don't see where your ypa means anything.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say.

 

[Bodha]

Dunno what your upset about 8-8 will win us a division, lol.

Isnt that the goal? I mean really, whos sitting here thinking 'This is the year for the superbowl!'. Even the year we did get there, nobody saw that coming. Winning the NFCW and going 1 or 2 deep into the playoffs is a successful season to me.-->little bit sad, but hey, after 100 years of garabge, ill take the news cards anyday.



Agreed on passer pressure issues.
too soon to know how badly we're hurting at CB
Heap and housler will help the weakness #2 WR issue
Kolb is much better than Anderson (+2 rookies). We win at least 6 minimum.

Feel we'll be better at LB and stopping the run. Porter wont have to play every down, he'll be better. We have guys who can rotate in, keep the line fresh. We have Stewart Bradley whos a run stuffer. I expect to see him alot in the Carolina game.

 

[TJ]

But that still doesn't make it automatic that if you can't run you can be successful passing unless the other teams pass defense is suspect. The Vikings finished 6-10 because their pass defense was the worst in the NFL.

It's rare to have that type of defense where it is completely impenetrable. The last two I remember being that efficient were the 2000 Ravens and the 2002 Bucs.

 

[gmabel830]

Isnt that the goal? I mean really, whos sitting here thinking 'This is the year for the superbowl!'. Even the year we did get there, nobody saw that coming. Winning the NFCW and going 1 or 2 deep into the playoffs is a successful season to me.-->little bit sad, but hey, after 100 years of garabge, ill take the news cards anyday.

I agree with this 100%. Regularly winning our division (even a bad division) and hosting a playoff game more years than not would put us in better shape than 75% of the NFL, as only 8/32 teams get that privilege each year. Anything beyond that often comes down to who is the hottest team at that time -- ask the Atlanta Falcons how that goes.

I hope we can get to the point where winning the division and hosting a playoff game each year is a foregone conclusion and we expect more, but for now I'd take that every year and live on a hope and a prayer in the playoffs.

 

[Duckjake]

It's rare to have that type of defense where it is completely impenetrable. The last two I remember being that efficient were the 2000 Ravens and the 2002 Bucs.

Of course. Their secondary has been the weak part of that defense for a while. And not just because other teams had to pass.

 

[kerouac9]

Where in your post does it address the issue that just because you force other teams to pass all the time they have to be successful at it. TJ was saying that Horton's secondary DIDN'T put up the greatest numbers because other teams had to pass because they couldn't run. So I don't see where your ypa means anything.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say.

They don't. I just thought you were saying/implying that the Steelers weren't successfully depending the pass, either.

My concern is that we'll be effective neither defending the run nor the pass. It doesn't matter if A.J. Jefferson or Patrick Peterson limit opposing WRs to 2.3 YAC average if every catch is made 22 yards downfield because the opposing QB was setting up shop in the pocket, baking scones and brewing tea.

No one's been able to explain to me how we're going to contain the run with the exact same front seven that was dreadful at it last year. Our rush defense was worse than our pass defense last year, but every time I bring it up people say, "Well, we kept Joey Porter, so maybe he's going to be good this year."

 

[Duckjake]

I agree with this 100%. Regularly winning our division (even a bad division) and hosting a playoff game more years than not would put us in better shape than 75% of the NFL, as only 8/32 teams get that privilege each year. Anything beyond that often comes down to who is the hottest team at that time -- ask the Atlanta Falcons how that goes.

I hope we can get to the point where winning the division and hosting a playoff game each year is a foregone conclusion and we expect more, but for now I'd take that every year and live on a hope and a prayer in the playoffs.

The NFL is about dynasties. Pittsburgh, Philly, New England and Indy now. Dallas and SF in the 90's. Steelers and Oilers in the 70s. I want the Cards to be mentioned with those teams. I want 5 NFC Championship games not 8-8 and we'll try and get better next year.

 

[gmabel830]

The NFL is about dynasties. Pittsburgh, Philly, New England and Indy now. Dallas and SF in the 90's. Steelers and Oilers in the 70s. I want the Cards to be mentioned with those teams. I want 5 NFC Championship games not 8-8 and we'll try and get better next year.

To have expectations like that is just setting yourself up for disappointment and anger. Not saying this team might not grow into that caliber during the lifetime of Fitz's contract, but all of those dynasties were defined by stability at QB except for maybe Pitt. Philly had McNabb, Pats - Brady, Indy - Manning, Dallas - Aikman, SF - Montana/Young. It wasn't realistic to expect we would stay a championship caliber team last year after Warner retired, and it isn't realistic to expect we will be a championship caliber team this year with an unproven Kolb. Just like it isn't realistic to think the Colts will stay a championship caliber team if Manning can't recover for his neck injury. Staying competative in our division and hosting playoff games consistently is a massive cry from where this franchise has been, and they've made huge financial committments to core players who have the potential to take us where you'd eventually like us to be. We could make all of the right moves and still not consistently get to the conference championship game on a regular basis or another Super Bowl with Larry as a Cardinal -- you never know what happens in the postseason until you get there.

 

[gamebird98]

The Vikings game should be a LOCK...they got that washed up QB that no one here wanted.

 

[40yearfan]

The NFL is about dynasties. Pittsburgh, Philly, New England and Indy now. Dallas and SF in the 90's. Steelers and Oilers in the 70s. I want the Cards to be mentioned with those teams. I want 5 NFC Championship games not 8-8 and we'll try and get better next year.

Agree and if I know Mike Bidwill, he is expecting nothing less than that. He wants a SB ring for his dad while he can still enjoy it, so time is of the essence. It's win now or find another job.

 

[kerouac9]

The Vikings game should be a LOCK...they got that washed up QB that no one here wanted.

Well, we know that the guys here know their QBs. They brought in Derek Anderson, Max Hall, and John Skelton. And Brian St. Pierre!

Again, how is this team going to stop the run? Also, how is this team going to win on the road? With two horrible OTs?

 

[carrrnuttt]

Well, we know that the guys here know their QBs. They brought in Derek Anderson, Max Hall, and John Skelton. And Brian St. Pierre!

Again, how is this team going to stop the run? Also, how is this team going to win on the road? With two horrible OTs?

Why haven't you applied for a FO/coaching position with the Cardinals yet? You obviously know more about it than they do, and seem to take this **** even more seriously than even DeWreck ever can. With you at the helm, we can guarantee a winning season every season, no?

Here's a site idea for you: cardinalsconsulting.com (unless it's already taken).

We can then start a campaign, especially through Twitter, which a lot of our players seem to frequent, to have Cards personnel go through your consultation checklist of "things that will make me not bitch about you."

 

[Catfish]

K-9-----I know that you are skeptical of this group, especially in light of the NON-season that passed for an off-season. My best try at telling you what I believe most of us see in this bunch is this:

1. This group seems to really like each other, and have gone out of their way to help each other out, and to support each other. In short, they are genuinely playing for each other, and that is not a bad thing.

2. The mess that WAS a run-coordinator, and a pass-coordinator, (neither of which called plays, or apparently didn't even conceive them), has been replaced with a genuine coordinator for the offense and the defense. Even if Whiz call plays himself at times, the play calling seems to be more appropriate than last year.

3. While Horton has not yet shown his defense, I believe that he has discovered the strengths and weaknesses of his individual players, and that he will eventually come to a scheme, (or several), in which he plays to the strengths, no matter what the outcome might be. Our defense was more or less successful in preseason, (which---while it didn't count, was certainly meaningful).

I understand your apprehension, (I was far more than apprehensive last year, I was flat out devastated by the actions Whiz took). I hope you are able to enjoy a fulfilling season, as will all of us. Fish

I want to add a post-script-----Last year, a number of players simply quit on this team at various times. I just don't see that happening this year, as the players seem vested in what is going on, especially in light of the discombobulated off-season. That can't be a bad thing either.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Whis inherit Warner and Leinart (a high first round pick that is hard to change when operating a franchise, be it if you drafted him or not) and when Warner's short but sweet time with the Cards was done, this franchise was thrown into a difficult position. Whis I'm sure was hoping reluctantly he could salvage a high QB pick, but knew it did not fit what he thought would be successful and then was put in a position to start Anderson (wishful thinking on his part that Leinart would pan out in my opinion and he deserves some blame for that but not a full judgement on QB ability when that was his only proven mistake so far). Kolb and the progress of Skelton will determine what Whis knows about QBs. I feel all of K9s other points are valid and worth considering

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I want to know why you think the Browns will be better? They really haven't done anything outside the draft to improve their team and their 2nd best OL(Steinbach) is out for the year. And it would be silly to say their draftees will contribute and the Cards guys won't. Or that their 2nd years guys will improve but the Cards guys won't. I doubt that Colt McCoy's improvement will be greater than Kolb's improvement over last years wreck.

edit: I guess you weren't comparing the Browns to the Cards but I still don't think they'll be much better, if at all. Hillis likley won't repeat last years performance.

 

[Krangodnzr]

This is what makes me optimistic for this season:

1. No Derek Anderson. Everyone on this board knows Derek Anderson likely cost this team 3-4 wins. While I don't think Kolb alone makes up for those 3-4 wins, I can see him making up for two additional wins.

2. Younger players got some needed experience last year. Dan Williams, Daryl Washington, Brandon Keith, and Andre Roberts all played quite a few snaps. All should improve to a degree. I think Williams will play quite a bit, and obviously David Carter has shown that he'll be an upgrade over Robinson. It's the board vs. Kerouac on Washington; most of us think he'll be pretty darn good if people keep blockers off of him. Brandon Keith is knocking the rust off, but he's shown glimpses of talent at RT. And Andre Roberts will be a solid NFL receiver THIS YEAR. He won't be a star but he'll give this team a capable #2 that we lacked last year (Breaston disappeared for large stretches).

Schofield, Jefferson, and Rashad Johnson could fit in this category as well, but are more of longshots. I like what I've seen from all three so far, but they've proven less than the defenders mentioned above. If two of the three listed above become even good contributors, I think this defense becomes respectable.

3. Horton. He seems to have the players on his side and it's not Bill Davis' defense, which was shown to not work last year. I think some improvement will come from this alone.

4. Improved Punt returner. Say what you will, but Peterson will be a HUGE upgrade at punt returner. IMO he's our most explosive returner in nearly two decades, if not ever.

5. Tight End. We have em now. Not just one good one. We have FOUR good TEs IMO. 3/4 are solid blockers, which will help in the ground game, in max protect, and 3/4 are pretty good receivers (not Dray yet, but it could be 4/4).

6. Defensive line depth. Have we had this much since the team was in Arizona? Nick Eason would've been our best lineman 9 years ago. Vonnie Holliday looked great in the preseason. And David Carter looks impressive; I remember seeing people panning him when we drafted him, but I thought that the scouts must've seen something in him.

7. Did I mention that Derek Anderson isn't starting anymore? Every player on offense automatically will be a little bit better. Receivers won't have to go after so many inaccurate throws. Running backs won't have to deal with so many obvious throwing downs. The offensive line will have more margin for error. And the coaching staff won't have to dial down the offense as much.

I have hope for this season. It might be kool aid, but I have plenty to share with rest of you.