Henry for Shelton trade agreed in principle.

[Stout]

Now let's bring in his buddy Drew.

 

[jerryp]

I find this whole post very odd. You say you wont elaborate about your ideas on stats yet you will elaborate on why you wont elaborate by writting a book on why you wont elaborate.

Holy Crap I think I just confused myself.

Yes I am aware of the irony. I tried to keep it short but oh well. Now you can bookmark it and reference it in the future when I mock your yard per carry and other such nonsense.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ,



I can't have a discussion with you Russ, because you'll throw out crap stats like sacks given up as a starter. I've explained how those numbers don't mean anything because we have no context for them other than who was named starter for the game in which they occurred. You and others want to argue yards per carry like it means anything. I'd spend the entire time explaining why four yards per carry is so arbitrary and flies in the face of logic that there would be no actual discussion on the running backs. The only thing I can do is point them at FO, to which most people go look at the individual player rankings, see they don't match exactly what they think they should be, then trash them and use it proof that four yards per carry really is the true god. I've seen it happen on this board.

The media contributes to all this. They have to package the information in such a way that the casual fan and drunkards at the stadium can understand. So it's easier to say McGahee's play caused the turn around because anecdotally, it's correct. In reality it's not, but to see why means setting aside all the conventional stats and talking head hype. No one's willing to do that. The media has created the make a statement then back it up by finding stats that prove it mentality, even if you have to rely on numbers that are fundamentally unsound for showing what your trying to. It's all over this board dude.

I don't have any interest in convincing people otherwise because it's too much effort for a goal that in the grand scheme isn't that important. I'll just have to settle for the most part being able to actually understand what I see during the games and laughing at trade threads that look straight out of Madden 2005 and comparisons of running backs based on the number of sacks their lines gave up without ever factoring in formation/substitutions/assignments.

All you have to do is look at the offensive, defensive, and special teams efficiency tables of footballoutsiders.com to see just how much the Bills defense/special teams outclasses their offense. Then look at the offensive line ratings and notice they rank there where they do for offense, in the bottom half of the league. Then look at drive stats. Look at how the Bills are 25th in yards per drive and how they are number one in starting field position. Seems to back up my statements that the offense isn't that great and that the defense and special teams repeatedly gave them great field position. But in order for any of that have to any meaning you have to accept the metrics as valid which most won't do because it either conflicts with what ESPN has told them or because the system thumbs it's nose at conventional stats/wisdom. That's why I don't care to elaborate.

Jerry I just find it ironic that you assume I'm going to ignore those numbers because they're not on ESPN. If you knew my background you'd know before the last baseball strike killed my interest in baseball I was called a "stathead" on baseball boards because I looked at Sabremetrics and Bill James, which you'll note was the stuff that gave FO the idea to do what they do in the first place. Note I had no actual involvement in Sabermetrics or Bill James I didn't work for them, I just paid a lot of attention to what they were saying and they completely changed my perception of baseball. Billy Beane built his Oakland ballclub almost entirely on ideas Bill James was writing about 10 years earlier. I think in 10-15 years perceptions in the NFL will have changed much the same way they have in baseball where a term like OPS is now almost as common as RBI's or BA.

I agree with you we don't know the specifics of why the sack numbers were so high in the games Henry started. I also would point out we don't know the specifics when McGahee was the starter either so I'm making the same assumption with both of them.

I spent 30 minutes at lunch today doing online research on Henry and among other things I came across a pre draft scouting report from Dave Te Thomas where he said Henry was very good at protecting the football(not exactly Nostradamus there) and said while Henry was a very good between the tackles RB he was a "total liability in the passing game" because he had terrible hands and was a bad blocker. I also read comments from Mularkey where he on several occasions talked about how McGahee opened up the Bills passing game because of his versatility as a receiver and blocker. That's the coach so I'm assuming when he says that he is in part explaining why he's playing Willis and not Travis.

I don't know how else to put it to you, you're lumping me in with a lot of people you've apparently had discussions with in the past and completely ignoring that I keep telling you I LIKE FO, I like what they do, and I absolutely give it a lot of merit. In this case FO doesn't think much of henry either. I realize they don't rate Buffalo's OL very highly, I also realize that they don't rate the Cards OL very high either and since Henry will be going from buffalo to the cards, that's quite relevant isn't it? I find myself in the unusual position of being accused of ignoring stats, usually someone is accusing me of putting too much focus on stats.

FYI I do understand that Buffalo's defense and special teams were their strengths last year, but in a thread about Travis Henry being traded to arizona I'm not sure how that's relevant? Nobody that I've seen on this thread said benching Henry made the Bills good, so you're knocking down an opinion that NOBODY is actually stating.

Seriously I asked for your input because I valued it, so far your responses come across as "I'm much smarter than you are so I won't try to explain my opinion."

Back on the subject, do YOU believe Henry for Shelton is a good deal for the Cards?

 

[joeshmo]

I tried to keep it short but oh well. Now you can bookmark it and reference it in the future when I mock your yard per carry and other such nonsense.

Then do it already.

I am open to any and all new ideas and theories, especially if it is explained well enough and is backed up.

This whole I have an opinion but I'm not telling, just doesnt fly.

Really, the time it took you to write your last 2 posts/novels on why you wont explain yourself you could have explain your opinion already.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Just heard from a friend (from Buffalo sports radio) that the Cardinals and Bills have agreed in principle to a trade for LJ Shelton and Travis Henry pending physicals.

I have no idea if draft choices where included or if the Cardinals plan on re-doing Henrys contract.

This is the first time that this person has actually given me any information like this so I don't know if they are just pulling my leg. I apologise in advance if this news turns out to be bunk.

YEAH!!!!! Yeah!!!!

Yes, yes, yes, yes!

You negative nellies can complain all you want. But if this is true than HERE COME THE CARDINALS.

Travis Henry? Are you kidding me ?

Nice. This is GREAT news.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

you're totally right. it seems a lot of peeps on this board only watch cards games and are not that familiar with the rest of the league. henry is a stud. a top-notch runningback. is he shawn alexander or priest holmes (when healthy)? no. is he a legit running/receiving threat? hell yeah. he'll be the best back we've had in az.

and to give up shelton, who, though he may be jstadvl's best friend, was part of a perennially bad offensive line and nada else for a top notch rb? my friends, we do this in a heartbeat.

Nice I even got Ouchie on my side in this battle.

Henry is a beast of a running back. Many of you are harping on small stuff like pass blocking, and ability to catch the ball. YOu want to rip on Henry then fine....talk about his fumbling problems.

But I tell you what, Travis Henry can run the football. This is the same guy who played a full second half of a NFL football game with a BROKEN F'N LEG. Henry is super tough, and twice as fast. You wait until you see him in his first play as a Cardinal. Many of you will think of him is a superman, but that is just cause the Cardinals have not had a RB since Otis Anderson (otis wasn't even that fast). For once the people in Arizona get to see what a real running back can do.

Peace

 

[Russ Smith]

Nice I even got Ouchie on my side in this battle.

Henry is a beast of a running back. Many of you are harping on small stuff like pass blocking, and ability to catch the ball. YOu want to rip on Henry then fine....talk about his fumbling problems.

But I tell you what, Travis Henry can run the football. This is the same guy who played a full second half of a NFL football game with a BROKEN F'N LEG. Henry is super tough, and twice as fast. You wait until you see him in his first play as a Cardinal. Many of you will think of him is a superman, but that is just cause the Cardinals have not had a RB since Otis Anderson (otis wasn't even that fast). For once the people in Arizona get to see what a real running back can do.

Peace

First off in Green's offense ability to catch the ball and pass block ARE important, if you noticed we play a lot of one back sets. Last year more than half the sacks of Bledsoe were one back set, the year before an even higher %(when Henry was the 1 back) so it's relevant to our system. Unless we want to take Henry out on passing downs and telegraph to the defense that we're passing, he's going to have to be able to play in that set,

Secondly the broken leg thing is overplayed and even Buffalo's doctors have said that. he didn't go out, snap his leg in two and then stick a dismount on the rings (like that Chinese gymnast in the Olympics did once). henry had a "stress fracture", one that hurt, but wasn't so unbearably painful that he knew he had a real problem. That's why he played on it for 3 games before the doctors figured out the problem. That's quite common with stress fractures, people play an entire year on it as their starting Center this year did (Teague?) before they finally discovered it. In fact when Henry hurt his ankle this year the initial reports were he had a "broken leg" again, until he came out himself and said it's not a broken leg it's an ankle problem and it wasn't broken last year either it was a stress fracture. Painful hell yes and there's no question he's tough he played with broken ribs that year too. Henry is a tough guy, but has also has a history of getting hurt, he's played 16 games once in 4 years, trends like that tend to get worse as a player gets older, or comes off a major injury, which is why so many of us were concerned on counting on Shipp to be the guy, his injury history.

he's a better rb than Shipp, I don't think anybody questions that, the question is does he fit Green's offense, and is he the best bang for the buck for Shelton? We'll have to assume he is since we're never going to now what other offers for Shelton came along.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I didn't say the trade wasn't a good one. I said we'll see. Then my response to someone else was that Shelton never asked for a trade, he was never a malcontent. That was the indication given by the person in the thread.
The other point is in answer to Green playing who he likes. ( The ability part).
Shelton is a better right tackle and all around lineman than AC.
He still isn't going to get the playing time and indications were he was trade bait for Green. His agent suggested they look into other options so he might at least have a chance to go where he has a good chance of starting.
My point is simply two things 1-Shelton wanted to be here but is being told he can go elsewhere-not his fault. 2-Green will play someone he likes over an equally gifted player.
He's got 4 years to make his bonus money.
If Henry works out for us, great, but don't try to make it sound like it's Shelton's fault. Green admits having no patience-except with the players and personnel he wants to. TE's for example, line coaches, QB's, etc.

i agree that shelton is not a malcontent. however, to say he isn't part of the parting of ways is wrong. your assumption that he was trade bait is just as much an assumption as whoever it was that marked LJ as a malcontent. the base of all this is that denny doesn't think LJ fits for whatever reason. LJ has been part of a horrid oline for years. denny has traditionally had great olines. i trust denny. both denny and LJ thought he'd be better off elsewhere otherwise LJ wouldn't have requested a trade (which he did) and the cards wouldn't have granted his wish to search for the best deal they could find. i don't think there is fault anywhere, but you certainly seem to think denny's at some kind of fault. it just sounds like a lot of bitter "i hate denny" coming from you.

 

[clif]

The one question that keeps getting asked.. Is Travis Henry a green type guy or does henry fit Denny's system? I say HELL YES..why? BECAUSE HE IS A PLAYMAKER

 

[Redsz]

First off in Green's offense ability to catch the ball and pass block ARE important, if you noticed we play a lot of one back sets. Last year more than half the sacks of Bledsoe were one back set, the year before an even higher %(when Henry was the 1 back) so it's relevant to our system. Unless we want to take Henry out on passing downs and telegraph to the defense that we're passing, he's going to have to be able to play in that set,

Secondly the broken leg thing is overplayed and even Buffalo's doctors have said that. he didn't go out, snap his leg in two and then stick a dismount on the rings (like that Chinese gymnast in the Olympics did once). henry had a "stress fracture", one that hurt, but wasn't so unbearably painful that he knew he had a real problem. That's why he played on it for 3 games before the doctors figured out the problem. That's quite common with stress fractures, people play an entire year on it as their starting Center this year did (Teague?) before they finally discovered it. In fact when Henry hurt his ankle this year the initial reports were he had a "broken leg" again, until he came out himself and said it's not a broken leg it's an ankle problem and it wasn't broken last year either it was a stress fracture. Painful hell yes and there's no question he's tough he played with broken ribs that year too. Henry is a tough guy, but has also has a history of getting hurt, he's played 16 games once in 4 years, trends like that tend to get worse as a player gets older, or comes off a major injury, which is why so many of us were concerned on counting on Shipp to be the guy, his injury history.

he's a better rb than Shipp, I don't think anybody questions that, the question is does he fit Green's offense, and is he the best bang for the buck for Shelton? We'll have to assume he is since we're never going to now what other offers for Shelton came along.

Russ, I think you will come round to him. Like you did with Darnell Dockett and the Hambrick/Zellner trade.

About catching the ball. I think I have pointed this out before, but Henry had like 43 receptions in 2002. That is proburbly more than our RB's put together for this year. So he can catch the ball, but he doesn't have much wiggle in the open field and that explains his YAC number.

We don't know if we are running the exact same offense that Green did in MIN. So who knows if Green emphasizes the RB catching the ball in AZ?

 

[Zeno]

2-Green will play someone he likes over an equally gifted player.

I don't see the problem with this. Any coach of any sport at any level will do the same thing. All things being the same a coach is going to start(or give more playing time to) the player he likes or is more comfortable with. Thats the reality.

Is this really a knock on Green? To me its just stating the obvious.

Had you said he would start a player he likes over someone better then thats an issue.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ, I think you will come round to him. Like you did with Darnell Dockett and the Hambrick/Zellner trade.

About catching the ball. I think I have pointed this out before, but Henry had like 43 receptions in 2002. That is proburbly more than our RB's put together for this year. So he can catch the ball, but he doesn't have much wiggle in the open field and that explains his YAC number.

We don't know if we are running the exact same offense that Green did in MIN. So who knows if Green emphasizes the RB catching the ball in AZ?

That's a good point, I am assuming that we'll run the offense the Vikings did. Of coursed Green said we would this year when he kept pointing to Minnesota and the Colts and saying we know our offense works, they run it.

I hope I come around I hope Henry gets 1500 yards this year, I just think at first glance to me it appears that we got nervous and made a deal. 2 weeks ago reports were that they wanted a 2nd rounder for Henry and we felt that was too high. Now we're trading them a guy that reportedly we could get a 2nd rounder for. So in effect we are trading a 2nd rounder we could have had, for Henry, when not that long ago we didn't think he was worth that. I can only assume that franchising Alexander and James et al convinced us we wouldn't be able to get Jordan or another FA RB so we see Henry as the best RB we CAN get and we're getting him.

And yes Dockett, Hambrick and Zellner were all situations I didn't like and now am quite happy with, so I hope Henry is the next one.

 

[Twist18]

I am very excited about Henry. Great receiver out of the backfield. I hope some screens are designed for him as well. First real RB we have had since Adrian Murrell.

 

[red desert]

First real RB we have had since Adrian Murrell.

 

[az jam]

I would feel much happier regarding this rumor of a trade if there was some acknowledgment that it is going to happen. Although trades are not allowed until March 2nd; teams can annouce so called "pending" trades. We have had a tremendous amount of discussion (10 pages) on nothing but a rumor.

 

[Renz]

We have had a tremendous amount of discussion (10 pages) on nothing but a rumor.

You're right! Let's talk about the upcoming game against...oh wait...

 

[arthurracoon]

Nice I even got Ouchie on my side in this battle.

Henry is a beast of a running back. Many of you are harping on small stuff like pass blocking, and ability to catch the ball. YOu want to rip on Henry then fine....talk about his fumbling problems.

But I tell you what, Travis Henry can run the football. This is the same guy who played a full second half of a NFL football game with a BROKEN F'N LEG. Henry is super tough, and twice as fast. You wait until you see him in his first play as a Cardinal. Many of you will think of him is a superman, but that is just cause the Cardinals have not had a RB since Otis Anderson (otis wasn't even that fast). For once the people in Arizona get to see what a real running back can do.

Peace

I never thought I'd see the day where we are complaining about getting a Pro-Bowl Caliber RB for a guy who was probably not going to play much here.

 

[jstadvl]

No Zeno

I'm just stating something I've heard. It COULD hurt sometimes. I'm not trying to knock Green. I think he's a very good coach, when, He's got everything put in place. ( whether he's responsible or someone else is). But, good point none the less.
Ouchie-I don't know LJ. AND I don't hate Green. So grow up!
I'm glad you think every one else is sooo upset about this other than people like "you" who watch every other team and all of their players. Therefore making "you" the only NFL experts on this board.
All anyone else is saying is we don't have alot of depth at O line positions.
Tell me you wouldn't rather have LJ than AC? (trade bait).
Your wrong about the Shelton deal and the way it went down. Shelton was forced to look out for himself.
Think what you want. There are other players on the squad right now who are also "covering all their bases". But don't make statements about me just to bust my chops. Your much to intelligent, as an attorney and a player analyst to stoop that low.

 

[Russ Smith]

I never thought I'd see the day where we are complaining about getting a Pro-Bowl Caliber RB for a guy who was probably not going to play much here.

Shelton would have been our RT had he stayed. Unless you know somethign we don't about AC and Shelton.

 

[joeshmo]

Is Travis Henry a green type guy or does henry fit Denny's system? I say HELL YES..why? BECAUSE HE IS A PLAYMAKER

I think Clif for the first time in his life hit the nail on the head on a topic.

I think people pigeon hole Green way to much on so called players that fit Green's system, or Denny type players.

Green likes only one kind of player, Playmakers whether they are big or small, fast or slow, smart or dumb, if he is a playmaker he is a Denny type guy.

 

[clif]

I think Clif for the first time in his life hit the nail on the head on a topic.

I think people pigeon hole Green way to much on so called players that fit Green's system, or Denny type players.

Green likes only one kind of player, Playmakers whether they are big or small, fast or slow, smart or dumb, if he is a playmaker he is a Denny type guy.

HOORAY BEER!

 

[CardinalChris]

Citing SWD to help prove a point is like giving a guy who can't swim a lead bathing suit.

And yet you have your own analogy **Hands award back**

 

[arthurracoon]

Shelton would have been our RT had he stayed. Unless you know somethign we don't about AC and Shelton.

I meant at LT for the $ we were paying him.


Could someone explain how the salaries are gonna be paid now and how the cap is affected when players are traded?

 

[The Commish]

HOORAY BEER!

You rang?

 

[CardinalChris]

That's a good point, I am assuming that we'll run the offense the Vikings did. Of coursed Green said we would this year when he kept pointing to Minnesota and the Colts and saying we know our offense works, they run it.

I hope I come around I hope Henry gets 1500 yards this year, I just think at first glance to me it appears that we got nervous and made a deal. 2 weeks ago reports were that they wanted a 2nd rounder for Henry and we felt that was too high. .

"In principle" means crap until March 2nd. Who knows what else is included in the deal. Something, nothing, who knows.