Hornacek looking great so far

[elindholm]

I do like having two explosive PGs, but I am concerned about size, especially with Bledsoe. I am also concerned about Dragic being converted into a SG. I think both of them would be better off playing next to a real SG than playing alongside another PG. We'll see how everything looks once they get 20+ games together.

It's a small sample size, but so far the Suns have looked worse with both of Dragic and Bledsoe on the floor than with only one of them. I think the problem is more on offense than on defense. The team can't seem to figure out who's running the show on offense, and so players stand around more, because they don't know where the offense is going to be initiated from. A set play can be called, but that negates the supposed advantage of having two creators on the floor.

Maybe Dragic and Bledsoe will develop a synergy, but now they remind me of the first season pairing of James and Wade. Each of them somewhat bashfully hung around while the other star got his turn. It wasn't until they figured out that James had to be the unequivocal #1 that they started to play well. I suspect that the same will be true with the Suns. An NBA roster can have as many PGs as it wants, but it can have only one leader.

 

[BC867]

I really don't see any problem with the two of them playing together. I take it that you don't think it can work? Are you worried about the size we're giving up or do you question how they'll work together on offense? I love the fact that we'll never really need to have a drop off out there when a point guard is resting and I also love the fact they can each create their own shot in addition to setting up their teammates.

Steve

With a very short sample time, it seems that, down the stretch . . .

Bledsoe gets an "A" in creating his own shot, while Dragic gets a "B" and

Dragic gets an "A" in setting up their teammates, while Bledsoe gets a "C".

Which is more important? 'Not an easy choice but I would say, with the game on the line, creating your own shot would be more important. But then, that became KJ's downfall in crunch time.

The beauty with Nash on offense was that he got an "A" in both, but was weaker than Bledsoe or Dragic on defense.

It also seems that Bledsoe defers to Dragic when they are both in the game, but takes it into his own hands when in the backcourt with Gerald Green.

It gets complicated, doesn't it?

 

[Sci Fi]

It's a small sample size, but so far the Suns have looked worse with both of Dragic and Bledsoe on the floor than when only one of them is. I think the problem is more on offense and on defense. The team can't seem to figure out who's running the show on offense, and so players stand around more, because they don't know where the offense is going to be initiated from. A set play can be called, but that negates the supposed advantage of having two creators on the floor.

Maybe Dragic and Bledsoe will develop a synergy, but now they remind me of the first season pairing of James and Wade. Each of them somewhat bashfully hung around while the other star got his turn. It wasn't until they figured out that James had to be the unequivocal #1 that they started to play well. I suspect that the same will be true with the Suns. An NBA roster can have as many PGs as it wants, but it can have only one leader.

Excellent post! You're seeing exactly as I am.

The problem for the Suns is this isn't Wade and LeBron. The benefits to the team by acquiring other positional needs outweigh keeping them together. Like I said a long time ago, this is the Bledsoe dilemma. They should choose soon who stays and who goes. The longer the Suns wait, the less value one of them will have. Dragic is clearly the better player. Sell high on Bledsoe now.

 

[SirStefan32]

It's a small sample size, but so far the Suns have looked worse with both of Dragic and Bledsoe on the floor than when only one of them is. I think the problem is more on offense and on defense. The team can't seem to figure out who's running the show on offense, and so players stand around more, because they don't know where the offense is going to be initiated from. A set play can be called, but that negates the supposed advantage of having two creators on the floor.

Maybe Dragic and Bledsoe will develop a synergy, but now they remind me of the first season pairing of James and Wade. Each of them somewhat bashfully hung around while the other star got his turn. It wasn't until they figured out that James had to be the unequivocal #1 that they started to play well. I suspect that the same will be true with the Suns. An NBA roster can have as many PGs as it wants, but it can have only one leader.

That's pretty much how I see it, and tonight was a great example of this. Dragic was playing like an all-star in the first half. Once Bledsoe started the second half, Dragic was absolutely useless. It seems that Bledsoe does a better job taking Dragic out of the games than the other team does.

No doubt that Bledsoe is a better individual contributor, but Dragic is clearly a better leader. I think your Wade/ James comparison is spot on, but I think that it was more clear-cut in Miami. Difference between James and Wade is much greater than the difference between Bledsoe and Dragic.

Dragic is just not a shooting guard, and Bledsoe needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Neither one of them is effective without the ball, and neither one of them is a great shooter.

 

[SirStefan32]

With a very short sample time, it seems that, down the stretch . . .

Bledsoe gets an "A" in creating his own shot, while Dragic gets a "B" and

Dragic gets an "A" in setting up their teammates, while Bledsoe gets a "C".

Which is more important? 'Not an easy choice but I would say, with the game on the line, creating your own shot would be more important. But then, that became KJ's downfall in crunch time.

The beauty with Nash on offense was that he got an "A" in both, but was weaker than Bledsoe or Dragic on defense.

It also seems that Bledsoe defers to Dragic when they are both in the game, but takes it into his own hands when in the backcourt with Gerald Green.

It gets complicated, doesn't it?

It really does get complicated.

For a PG, I think setting up teammates is more important, but Bledsoe is SO good at getting to the basket, and creating his own shot.

 

[ZeRoSe7en]

I dont see why this duo couln't work, they both play completely diffrent styles. I see a lot of Tony Parker in Bledsoe and same for Dragic as Ginobli, euro step and everything. Now we just need a Tim Duncan like figure, a clear number one big.

 

[Errntknght]

That's pretty much how I see it, and tonight was a great example of this. Dragic was playing like an all-star in the first half. Once Bledsoe started the second half, Dragic was absolutely useless. It seems that Bledsoe does a better job taking Dragic out of the games than the other team does./quote]

I just watched the 3rd quarter of that game and Dragic was far from useless - he got to the line three or four times and made a very good drive against Richard Jefferson. And when Green subbed in for him the team didn't suddenly play better.

That said, they missed an opportunity to make the Jazz pay for playing RJ at shooting guard. By screening for each other they could have induced the Jazz guards to switch and they could have taken turns driving against him. I mentioned that a couple of weeks ago as a technique they should have in their arsenal for just such situations. It would have been a good opportunity to try some double teams when RJ was posting them up, too. (Have to give Corbin good marks for trying it and our slowness to react to it made it work to their advantage.)

I suspect Hornacek is just letting Dragic and Bledsoe play together and work things out for themselves but I'd say that it is time to introduce some plays to get more synergy from having two point guards on the floor. Screening for each other is one of course, but there are others - give and go, pinch post maneuvers, and dribble hand-offs, all staples of the Princeton offense. There are a variety of little two man games they can learn as well - which Horny should remember from playing with Stockton.

Having two point guards allows them both to have opportunities to set back picks for bigs down low - Eddie House was great at that and Nash did it occasionally as well - though our bigs didn't expect it any more than the defense and missed most of the opportunities it gave them.

At present it seems to me that Eric is too static when Goran has the ball - it will take some time for him to get used to moving more but he's got a coach who can educate him on the ins and outs of it.

I think Corbin coached a much better game this time around. For one thing he stuck with Trey Burke in spite of the Suns giving him a hard time the night before - and Trey responded well. In addition he seems to have settled on Dionte Garrett as the backup PG. Alec Burks did much better playing his natural position of SG. Ty also used Jeremy Evans more giving them quite an athletic lineup but still strong rebounding. Marvin Williams seems to have come out of a fog, too. EJ said one of the keys to the game was to keep Hayward in check, which the Suns(PJTucker) did and they still won. I expect the Jazz to come to life now... they have plenty of talent.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It takes time for two players like Goran and Bled to work out the kinks and play together. It just does not happen over 10 games or so, and since both were injured that's about all they have had so far. The beauty of having these two play together is that their strengths complement each other. Also, a running offense is very taxing on pg's. Having two distributors on the break allows the team to run more often. Another great advantage is that the team can continue to perform well even when one of them injured.

I like these two together and I am looking forward to seeing more in the future. It reminds me of the Isiah Thomas/Joe Dumars combo. Isiah was the star of that team, but Joe won the finals mvp.

 

[SirStefan32]

It takes time for two players like Goran and Bled to work out the kinks and play together. It just does not happen over 10 games or so, and since both were injured that's about all they have had so far. The beauty of having these two play together is that their strengths complement each other. Also, a running offense is very taxing on pg's. Having two distributors on the break allows the team to run more often. Another great advantage is that the team can continue to perform well even when one of them injured.

I like these two together and I am looking forward to seeing more in the future. It reminds me of the Isiah Thomas/Joe Dumars combo. Isiah was the star of that team, but Joe won the finals mvp.

While I agree with most of this, I don't believe that "their strengths complement each other." Both of them are good at getting to the rim (Bledsoe a bit better), neither one of them is a great shooter (Bledsoe is borderline bad), both of them need a ball in their hands to be effective. There is nothing about either one of those two that complements the other one, other than that both of them can run and lead a fast break.

I am not saying this will not work out- it's way too early to make that prediction, but I do think that too many people are saying it will work out just because they want it to work out. Fast break are fine, but they don't win championships. With Bledsoe and Dragic on the court together, the Suns offense is reduced to isolation. Bledsoe is a shooting guard that can't shoot, and Dragic is just NOT a shooting guard. They both need the ball to be effective, and neither one of them is an effective shooter.

I hope you guys are right, but the more I see of Dragic and Bledsoe together, the less convinced I am that this is a good idea.

 

[Errntknght]

SirStephan:

I hope you guys are right, but the more I see of Dragic and Bledsoe together, the less convinced I am that this is a good idea.

The statistical evidence says they are doing better paired together than either one did on their own offensively. Both have their all time best offensive efficiency rating so far this year and both are scoring at their all time highest rates, measured per game and per 40 minutes. And by significant margins in all cases. Bledsoe's assists are also much higher than ever - per game and per 40 minutes.

Fast break are fine, but they don't win championships.

History says you are wrong - two of the longest championship winning teams were fastbreaking teams: Auerbach's Celtics and the 'showtime' Lakers.

The biggest problem with our fastbreak is that we are not rebounding well enough - we are somewhat below average across the whole league. Plumlee is holding up his end just fine, being a bit above average but Frye and Morrises are not.

 

[BC867]

Dragic and Bledsoe haven't had a chance to play together a lot but, so far, I haven't seen them interchange playmaking roles from play to play to confuse the opposition.

Bledsoe has been passive when Dragic is on the court and comes to life when Dragic sits.

So far, the benefit has been that we have one rested shooting Point Guard on the floor at all times. But, over time, will either of them be happy being "the man running the show" half of the time?

It will be interesting to see how it plays out when they are both healthy.

 

[SirStefan32]

SirStephan:

The statistical evidence says they are doing better paired together than either one did on their own offensively. Both have their all time best offensive efficiency rating so far this year and both are scoring at their all time highest rates, measured per game and per 40 minutes. And by significant margins in all cases. Bledsoe's assists are also much higher than ever - per game and per 40 minutes.



History says you are wrong - two of the longest championship winning teams were fastbreaking teams: Auerbach's Celtics and the 'showtime' Lakers.

The biggest problem with our fastbreak is that we are not rebounding well enough - we are somewhat below average across the whole league. Plumlee is holding up his end just fine, being a bit above average but Frye and Morrises are not.

I would love to see some of those stats and dig deeper to figure out exactly what they mean. Of course Bledsoe's assists are going to be higher than in previous years because he is no longer just a backup to the best PG in the NBA. I am not disputing that Dragic and Bledsoe are very good players individually- they are, and I like them both!

As far as Celtics and the Lakers go, I am not even going to get into that discussion. If you can't see the difference between the 80's Lakers/ Celtics and modern "running" teams, I really don't know where to begin. There is a big difference between the team that can run, and a team that can ONLY run. Lakers would indeed run, but they could also throw the ball to Kareem, Worthy, and even Magic in the post and just let them work.
I have nothing against fast breaks, but I am saying that fast breaks cannot be the only way you can score. After years of SSOL, I would think we would all understand this concept really well. You can run all you want, but at some point you are going to have to be able to defend and score in half-court sets.

 

[Suns_fan69]

The SSOL teams could score, period. Sure they were known for their fast break prowess but even in the half court, they were quite prolific with the small ball spread offense with Pick n Rolls.

Defense, and to a smaller extent, the lack of a bench, was what really derailed the championship hopes (unless you want to count Horry's hip check).

 

[Errntknght]

I would love to see some of those stats and dig deeper to figure out exactly what they mean. Of course Bledsoe's assists are going to be higher than in previous years because he is no longer just a backup to the best PG in the NBA. I am not disputing that Dragic and Bledsoe are very good players individually- they are, and I like them both!

As far as Celtics and the Lakers go, I am not even going to get into that discussion. If you can't see the difference between the 80's Lakers/ Celtics and modern "running" teams, I really don't know where to begin. There is a big difference between the team that can run, and a team that can ONLY run. Lakers would indeed run, but they could also throw the ball to Kareem, Worthy, and even Magic in the post and just let them work.
I have nothing against fast breaks, but I am saying that fast breaks cannot be the only way you can score. After years of SSOL, I would think we would all understand this concept really well. You can run all you want, but at some point you are going to have to be able to defend and score in half-court sets.

You can certainly find their present and historical scoring/assist stats, which is why I mentioned more than the offensive efficiency rating, a calculation I make from the raw data that appears in box scores or summaries of box score data. Their PER numbers are the most similar stat that's published - though PER includes defensive data as well.

I think I can comprehend anything you'd care to explain about your thoughts on why fastbreak basketball was so different in the 80's (or the 50's and 60's, the era of Red Auerbach). I wrote a post during the summer that outlined why SSOL was not like traditional fastbreak basketball - basically that the latter is based on defense and rebounding while SSOL was not, which you seem to understand. You may not be aware that Hornacek's plan is that the team's style would be old fashioned fastbreak basketball and not SSOL - and also not like the 'Run and Gun' style Phoenix was noted for in the more distant past and for the same basic reasons.

Where is it written that the backup behind a top flight point guard cannot have lots of assists. In Nash's case it was understandable because the offense he ran was geared to his unique abilities - that was the offense, in fact. I don't know enough about Chris Paul's game to know whether the Clips style is so skewed to his unique abilities that it hampers any backup but I do know that many people here had serious concerns about Bledsoe's playmaking ability before the season began. His assists per 40 min have approximately doubled and I claim that says he is not doing poorly playing alongside Dragic. His scoring rate, per unit time, has almost tripled.


[Offensive efficiency rating I calculate is an extension of Assist to Turnover ratio. A nice thing about a ratio is that it does not involve playing time, which keeps it simple. The formula is:
.50*PTs + ASTs + .75*ORs + 0.05*FTAs divided by TOs + .65 * (FGA-FGM)
Notes: That weight for FTA is not a mis-typed .50, its a tenth of a point bonus because FTAs mean you put a foul on an opponent in addition to scoring some points. FGA-FGM is, of course missed FGs. I weight them by .65 because 25% result in offensive rebounds and another 10% are forced by the clock. ORs get weight .75 because .25 was already subtracted from the denominator.
Because playing time is not involved you can aggregate each raw stat for any number of players, a whole team for instance, and calculate the rating for them collectively with no change in meaning. You can also sum all point guards and calculate it to get an average, or all PFs or all players.
Another thing its good for is making up a hypothetical team and see how it rates.
Why not defensive data? Because I don't understand how to combine it with offensive data and especially not with a ratio - and of course the defensive stats in a box score tell you almost nothing.]

 

[Phrazbit]

Miami won the last two titles while being the best transition offense in the league and playing solid D. Admittedly it helps when you have the best transition player in the NBA, but to say fast break teams dont win titles is false.

 

[Covert Rain]

Miami won the last two titles while being the best transition offense in the league and playing solid D. Admittedly it helps when you have the best transition player in the NBA, but to say fast break teams dont win titles is false.

I think you have to qualify that with modern takes on fast break. The showtime Lakers were good in transition offense. Pringles Suns were good in transition offense.

However, they were completely two different beasts. 7 seconds or less offenses have no shot at winning a title. NONE. They sacrifice rebounds and defense to get out in transition. Traditional fast break offenses are about securing the ball first and pushing it up the floor very quickly.

Teams that play more traditional fast break offenses but have a good defensive team can and have won titles.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think you have to qualify that with modern takes on fast break. The showtime Lakers were good in transition offense. Pringles Suns were good in transition offense.

However, they were completely two different beasts. 7 seconds or less offenses have no shot at winning a title. NONE. They sacrifice rebounds and defense to get out in transition. Traditional fast break offenses are about securing the ball first and pushing it up the floor very quickly.

Teams that play more traditional fast break offenses but have a good defensive team can and have won titles.

No shot? I agree that a more of a focus on defense and rebounding (or developing a bench) would have helped, but between Nash's bloody nose, Amare's knee, Joe Johnson's face, Artest's tip in, a ref in bed with the mob and a couple laughable suspensions... those teams came pretty damn close to making the finals and going against some East teams they would have been heavily favored against.

 

[Covert Rain]

No shot? I agree that a more of a focus on defense and rebounding (or developing a bench) would have helped, but between Nash's bloody nose, Amare's knee, Joe Johnson's face, Artest's tip in, a ref in bed with the mob and a couple laughable suspensions... those teams came pretty damn close to making the finals and going against some East teams they would have been heavily favored against.

Close? When it came down to it....did you ever see a D'Antoni defense make a habit of getting a crucial stop when it counted during any of those series? I didn't. Strategy = run on opponents (see 7 second offense)...shoot 3's....rinse.....repeat. That man truly lived by the best defense is a great offense.

 

[elindholm]

That man truly lived by the best defense is a great offense.

No one's arguing that. What's under debate is whether the Suns almost won a title, or whether they never had a chance.

 

[Covert Rain]

No one's arguing that. What's under debate is whether the Suns almost won a title, or whether they never had a chance.

No, I thought what was under debate is if a fast break team ever one a title which I think you can say there have been fast break teams that have won running a particular type of fast break offense (but also played defense). That part was a side bit an highly debatable.

 

[Sci Fi]

SirStephan:

The statistical evidence says they are doing better paired together than either one did on their own offensively. Both have their all time best offensive efficiency rating so far this year and both are scoring at their all time highest rates, measured per game and per 40 minutes. And by significant margins in all cases. Bledsoe's assists are also much higher than ever - per game and per 40 minutes.

The statistical evidence says nothing of the sort. You're using individual player data and then assuming just because the individual data is fine (btw, Dragic has produced similar numbers twice before over even larger samples) they are playing well together. Plenty of players can get theirs but the team suffers.

So instead of making unsupportable assertions given your chosen data set, let's look at a more appropriate measure. With and without. On the court together and each individually. And I just found a website that allows us to do that easily. Go to http://nbawowy.com/#/team-level. I tried to provide links to the three scenarios but am unable to do so. You'll have to do a little work but the site is super easy to use. First, select the Suns, then select Suns choose Dragic on and Bledsoe off. Hit submit and you get a ton of data. Analyze whatever you'd like. I certainly haven't looked at it all. after this just choose the swap button to change Dragic and Bledsoe around. Finally, choose both players on the court to compare to each individually.

So, if the "they are better paired together" both players on the court should yield better results than when just one is on the court. That's not the case. And guess what? the vast majority of Suns fans watching Suns games and commenting that the team looks a lot better on offense when Dragic is running the offense should give themselves a pat on the back. Good eye Suns fans!

Now I'm sure everyone will doubt this and I'll let you draw your own specific conclusions but I'll just highlight two specific offensive pieces of data (since that's what we're talking about). TS% and PPP. The numbers are listed as TS%, PPP and total minutes.

Dragic on 58.8 1.174 323
Bledsoe on 54.4 .995 215
Both on 55.1 1.077 155

Those differences are quite large.

The problem as I see it is that as Sir Stefan said, their skills aren't complementary , but redundant. It made worse because Dragic does almost everything better. In the words of a poster elsewhere, "Bledsoe is the best Sun playing 1-on-5 but Dragic is the best PG".o

 

[SirStefan32]

You can certainly find their present and historical scoring/assist stats, which is why I mentioned more than the offensive efficiency rating, a calculation I make from the raw data that appears in box scores or summaries of box score data. Their PER numbers are the most similar stat that's published - though PER includes defensive data as well.

I think I can comprehend anything you'd care to explain about your thoughts on why fastbreak basketball was so different in the 80's (or the 50's and 60's, the era of Red Auerbach). I wrote a post during the summer that outlined why SSOL was not like traditional fastbreak basketball - basically that the latter is based on defense and rebounding while SSOL was not, which you seem to understand. You may not be aware that Hornacek's plan is that the team's style would be old fashioned fastbreak basketball and not SSOL - and also not like the 'Run and Gun' style Phoenix was noted for in the more distant past and for the same basic reasons.

Where is it written that the backup behind a top flight point guard cannot have lots of assists. In Nash's case it was understandable because the offense he ran was geared to his unique abilities - that was the offense, in fact. I don't know enough about Chris Paul's game to know whether the Clips style is so skewed to his unique abilities that it hampers any backup but I do know that many people here had serious concerns about Bledsoe's playmaking ability before the season began. His assists per 40 min have approximately doubled and I claim that says he is not doing poorly playing alongside Dragic. His scoring rate, per unit time, has almost tripled.


[Offensive efficiency rating I calculate is an extension of Assist to Turnover ratio. A nice thing about a ratio is that it does not involve playing time, which keeps it simple. The formula is:
.50*PTs + ASTs + .75*ORs + 0.05*FTAs divided by TOs + .65 * (FGA-FGM)
Notes: That weight for FTA is not a mis-typed .50, its a tenth of a point bonus because FTAs mean you put a foul on an opponent in addition to scoring some points. FGA-FGM is, of course missed FGs. I weight them by .65 because 25% result in offensive rebounds and another 10% are forced by the clock. ORs get weight .75 because .25 was already subtracted from the denominator.
Because playing time is not involved you can aggregate each raw stat for any number of players, a whole team for instance, and calculate the rating for them collectively with no change in meaning. You can also sum all point guards and calculate it to get an average, or all PFs or all players.
Another thing its good for is making up a hypothetical team and see how it rates.
Why not defensive data? Because I don't understand how to combine it with offensive data and especially not with a ratio - and of course the defensive stats in a box score tell you almost nothing.]

The difference between 80's Lakers/ Celtics and modern running teams is simple- Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and McHale/ Parish/ Bird. Yes, they ran, but they had a lot of effective options in half-court sets, especially in the low post. Comparing those two teams to any modern team is just silly.

Idea of adding Goran's and Eric's stats and comparing them to previous years is just as silly. That proves that they are having a good year, individually, which is not even in question. Dragic is a fine player, Bledsoe is a fine player. They can both average 20 and 10, and still not be a good fit together.

 

[BC867]

They can both average 20 and 10, and still not be a good fit together.

'Sorry to be a stickler for detail, but "both average 20 and 10" means they add up to 20 and 10 per game. Two players to reach the stats of one.

"Each average 20 and 10" per game would be overwhelming.

But seriously, that is the question. With Bledsoe deferring so much to Dragic when they are on the court together, will they be two players adding up to one or two stars sharing the same role full time?

 

[SirStefan32]

'Sorry to be a stickler for detail, but "both average 20 and 10" means they add up to 20 and 10 per game. Two players to reach the stats of one.

"Each average 20 and 10" per game would be overwhelming.

But seriously, that is the question. With Bledsoe deferring so much to Dragic when they are on the court together, will they be two players adding up to one or two stars sharing the same role full time?

Ah, you are correct. Thank you for the correction. The point stands though- two people can produce very well individually, but that doesn't mean they are a good fit together.

Undersized shooting guard who can't shoot and need the ball in order to be effective, and a good point guard who is not a great shooter are just not a good fit. The flip side is that you ALWAYS have a good PG who can take over any given game at any time. I don't envy McD and Hornacek- they're going to have some decisions to make.

 

[Errntknght]

The difference between 80's Lakers/ Celtics and modern running teams is simple- Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and McHale/ Parish/ Bird. Yes, they ran, but they had a lot of effective options in half-court sets, especially in the low post. Comparing those two teams to any modern team is just silly.

Idea of adding Goran's and Eric's stats and comparing them to previous years is just as silly. That proves that they are having a good year, individually, which is not even in question. Dragic is a fine player, Bledsoe is a fine player. They can both average 20 and 10, and still not be a good fit together.

The showtime Lakers were from 1979-91, co-terminus with Magic's time I believe. Jabbar and Worthy were there for much of it as well but not all. Rambis and Michael Cooper were also on the teams. 'Showtime' referred to the Magic led fastbreak. Most people think of the team as not being very good defensively but they were and rebounded well, too. Yes, they had some very good players but then most championship teams do.

The fastbreaking Celtics teams were not the Bird, Parish, McKale teams of roughly the showtime era. I said the Auerbach teams (Auerbach coaching) meaning the teams featuring Bill Russell, Tom Heinsohn, KC Jones, Sam Jones and at the end John Havlicek. Also very good players. You said fastbreaking can't win titles and I said they'd won their share - I didn't claim the ten average players fastbreaking could win a title or anything silly. You made a broad claim and I gave you two counter examples to it.

As far as Bledsoe and Dragic go - this is their first year together and both of their offensive stats improved significantly this year. You'd hardly expect that if they were struggling to play together. I didn't claim there was great synergy between them - in fact I said there wasn't yet but I had hopes of seeing it.

Sci Fi had the best counter argument but he didn't make it clear that he was using teamwide stats for TS% and PPP. That means the the great variation that we have seen in Frye's and Markieff's shooting and scoring could well be dominating his figures. Our opponents have been quite variable as well. Its the same effect you can see with +/- stats over short spans - large numbers of games are needed before the effects of the other players 'cancel out'. (Or sophisticated regression techniques involving a vast quantity of detailed data.) If he threw out all the games where only one of Eric or Goran played much of the noise would be removed in this particular case. I'd be interested to see what that showed if its possible to select just that set of games.