Hornacek looking great so far

[95pro]

Tucker atleast has the sense to get it to pg, green will try n dribble all the way down or go one on one while in the half court.

 

[Superbone]

Yep, it's always scary watching Green dribble the ball like he's trying to show off his dribbling skills!

You don't have any! Give up the damn ball!

 

[sunsfan88]

Its hard to find anything to nitpick with Hornacek - and believe me, I work at it. I liked the rotation better when he used Ish Smith - and now we are seeing Bledsoe running on empty late in games. Developing Ish is certainly not a priority but overworking Bled and Dragic seems pointless - and could cost us wins.

Personally, I'd like see Goodwin's minutes ramping up but he's progressing well with the way Hornacek is playing him so I won't complain about it

But I would like to see Kravtsov be on the floor long enough to get into the flow of the game once in a while. Our defense is flagging lately and he could at least inject some energy and dole out some hard fouls.

Only thing I don't like is that he isn't developing Goodwin much at all. I don't want us to waste Goodwin's rookie season. I want him to play more and make mistakes so that he can learn from those mistakes the 2nd season. Playing 7-10 mins a night just isn't gonna cut it.

Its ridiculously hard to get into rhythm playing such short minutes.

 

[JS22]

Only thing I don't like is that he isn't developing Goodwin much at all. I don't want us to waste Goodwin's rookie season. I want him to play more and make mistakes so that he can learn from those mistakes the 2nd season. Playing 7-10 mins a night just isn't gonna cut it.

Its ridiculously hard to get into rhythm playing such short minutes.

Goodwin is a HUGE project. I'm sure he's learning a lot in practice and in the 10 minutes or so he's getting a game. Throwing him out there for extended minutes and watching him struggle could also harm his development and lead to more losses.

 

[Catlover]

Goodwin is a HUGE project. I'm sure he's learning a lot in practice and in the 10 minutes or so he's getting a game. Throwing him out there for extended minutes and watching him struggle could also harm his development and lead to more losses.

You're right and it also does a disservice to his teammates. Every player wants minutes. Doling them out to someone who hasn't earned them is a good way to lose the team. Jeff knows what he's doing.

 

[Suns_fan69]

I'd love to get more minutes for Goodwin and really it's probably doable as the minutes would likely come from Green who doesn't project to be a long term answer anyways.

The problem with playing Goodwin more right now though is that he kind of ruins the offensive spacing a bit as he's not really a threat from outside, and still gets lost a bit and ends up clogging lanes. Both are addressable, but will take time.

 

[sunsfan88]

Goodwin is a HUGE project. I'm sure he's learning a lot in practice and in the 10 minutes or so he's getting a game. Throwing him out there for extended minutes and watching him struggle could also harm his development and lead to more losses.

Yea but I think playing him like 5-10 mins a night and being so inconsistant about it is actually hurting his development and confidence.

This is what Bledsoe said about his time with the Clippers and I bet Goodwin feels the exact same way about the Suns

Bledsoe feels a freedom in Phoenix he said he did not experience for three years in Los Angeles, where he was Chris Paul’s backup for the past two years.

“I pretty much wasn’t thinking about shooting when I was in,” Bledsoe said of his Clippers season. “I was thinking, ‘If I miss it, I’m coming out.’ Now I can shoot it all day long without looking over my shoulder. Confidence helped me out, too. Last year, I wasn’t really as confident and shooting the ball as much as I do now. I was trying to do everything at the rim. It’s in the past, and I’m looking forward to what’s happening now.”

Bledsoe has been more efficient with another new perimeter wrinkle to his game — a transition pull-up, mid-range jumper.

“I’m getting a chance to shoot it,” Bledsoe said. “When I was with the Clippers, I couldn’t really do what I wanted to. As far as my game-wise, sometimes I’d come out and compromise a little bit. I had a short leash. I just try to come in and do as much as I can as possible. Now I get to showcase my talent.”

The short leash that Bledsoe is talking about is the same as Goodwin is on right now. Even Bledsoe said that he wasn't able to showcase his talent because of that short leash, and what if its doing that exact same thing to Goodwin?

 

[Phrazbit]

Goodwin is playing plenty given his current state. If the Suns were truly not developing him then he would not play at all... because while he has made some nice moves and I think he has shown some promise, overall he has been terrible. Which should be expected from a 19 year old.

He is a project, I have high hopes for him as clearly he has a lot of raw talent, but that does not mean he should be out on the floor right now. IMO he is probably learning more in practice than he would on the floor getting waxed repeatedly.

As for the comparison to Bledsoe's maturation... Bledsoe clearly become a solid player despite his short leash in LA. The counter for your line of thinkging would be whats happened to a guy like Nick Young. Came into the league with similar talent to what Goodwin has, this guy who can fly and get to the rim. Played with ZERO leash and developed into a undisciplined player that typically does more damage to his own team than the opposition.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Yea but I think playing him like 5-10 mins a night and being so inconsistant about it is actually hurting his development and confidence.

This is what Bledsoe said about his time with the Clippers and I bet Goodwin feels the exact same way about the Suns


The short leash that Bledsoe is talking about is the same as Goodwin is on right now. Even Bledsoe said that he wasn't able to showcase his talent because of that short leash, and what if its doing that exact same thing to Goodwin?

That "short leash" he is referring to is completely dependent on the coaches philosophy. I get the feeling that Hornecek tells Goodwin to be aggressive when he is out there and to not be afraid to shoot. I get the feeling that he would be more likely to get pulled for passing up a wide open shot than for being aggressive and missing on a good look. Guys need to earn their minutes in this league especially when they aren't on a terrible team where winning is a top priority. Dragic with Gentry was a good example of this type of situation. Gentry would tell Dragic not to look over his shoulder and just be aggressive and that led to Dragic sometimes playing more minutes than Nash in that 09/10 season. The key is that when a guy starts to show that he is worthy of an extended role you find a way to get him those extra minutes.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Goodwin is playing plenty given his current state. If the Suns were truly not developing him then he would not play at all... because while he has made some nice moves and I think he has shown some promise, overall he has been terrible. Which should be expected from a 19 year old.

He is a project, I have high hopes for him as clearly he has a lot of raw talent, but that does not mean he should be out on the floor right now. IMO he is probably learning more in practice than he would on the floor getting waxed repeatedly.

As for the comparison to Bledsoe's maturation... Bledsoe clearly become a solid player despite his short leash in LA. The counter for your line of thinkging would be whats happened to a guy like Nick Young. Came into the league with similar talent to what Goodwin has, this guy who can fly and get to the rim. Played with ZERO leash and developed into a undisciplined player that typically does more damage to his own team than the opposition.

I think this might sum up what keeps some of the worst teams in the league at the bottom year after year. They draft guys that have plenty of talent, but they just throw them onto the floor and keep them out there no matter what decisions they are making and thus they turn into extremely inefficient players. Not saying this is the case with all of those teams because some of it has to do with bad draft picks all together or bad management trading away picks or multiple other reasons, but it certainly would make sense that this is certainly part of what creates a "losing culture".

 

[sunsfan88]

The counter for your line of thinkging would be whats happened to a guy like Nick Young. Came into the league with similar talent to what Goodwin has, this guy who can fly and get to the rim. Played with ZERO leash and developed into a undisciplined player that typically does more damage to his own team than the opposition.

Laker fans love Swaggy P in LA though.

That "short leash" he is referring to is completely dependent on the coaches philosophy. I get the feeling that Hornecek tells Goodwin to be aggressive when he is out there and to not be afraid to shoot. I get the feeling that he would be more likely to get pulled for passing up a wide open shot than for being aggressive and missing on a good look. Guys need to earn their minutes in this league especially when they aren't on a terrible team where winning is a top priority. Dragic with Gentry was a good example of this type of situation. Gentry would tell Dragic not to look over his shoulder and just be aggressive and that led to Dragic sometimes playing more minutes than Nash in that 09/10 season. The key is that when a guy starts to show that he is worthy of an extended role you find a way to get him those extra minutes.

Yea but Goodwin has been aggressive though. I have watched 80% of the Suns games this season and whenever Goodwin is on the court and has the ball, he is driving to the rim at will. Almost to a fault because he turns down open looks occasionally to force the drive. He just doesn't finish at the rim yet because refs don't respect him at all, he needs to get stronger and cause he just needs to flat out get better at finishing in traffic.

But my point is that he won't get better at it by playing 7-10 mins a night. I just think he needs around 15-20 mins a night so he can improve and so that he has time to get into a rhythm in the game.

 

[Phrazbit]

I dont care what Laker fans think of "Swaggy P", they also are head over heals for Wes Johnson and Xavier Henry... meanwhile most of them despise Pau Gasol. Laker fans have bad taste, probably years of watching a good but undisciplined chucker in Kobe has convinced them that jacking up stupid shots, not passing and playing crappy D are actually admirable attributes.

And even if Nick Young were to magically transform into a star tomorrow, would it be of any use to the team that drafted him and stupidly played him heavy minutes for 4 years? Nope, his erratic play caused the Wiz to dump him... and two more teams dumped him after that.

And Young was just the first name that popped into my head. The list of guys who received too much PT early in their careers and then flamed out of the league is long and undistinguished. If a guy is ready then play them, leaving a kid out there to get butchered and develop bad habits does nothing for anyone.

 

[sunsfan88]

Who the hell said he turned into a star? Nick Young is a solid player, that's all.

Holy batman.

 

[Errntknght]

Dragic is leading the team in minutes at 35.2 per game. The best way for Bledsoe to get used to playing 36 minutes per game is to play 36 minutes per game. We don't need to see anything more from Ish Smith. He doesn't belong in the NBA and this team suffered while he was on the court. He's a poor defender and he can't shoot. Put him and Kravtsov on the court if your goal is to lose every game. Keep them on the bench if you want the rest of your players to continue to believe that they are in this to win games.

I don't believe that short rotations are desirable when you want to play a fastbreak game. Its more important to keep the tempo maxed out - and Ish Smith did that just fine, assisting at a good rate, too. His shooting has been poor but he is a pretty good defender - he stays in front of his man better than Dragic does - his steal rate was good and he didn't make bad gambles to make them.

Its not at all clear to me that Bledsoe is at his most valuable when he's playing 36 minutes a game - to me he seems to at his best when he's burning energy like mad. If he can only keep it up for 30 minutes a game then keep his average around 28 so he can step it up in the playoffs - its never wrong to plan on how your team is going play better in the playoffs, because its going to be needed.

 

[Phrazbit]

Who the hell said he turned into a star? Nick Young is a solid player, that's all.

Holy batman.

Try reading that again hot shot.

"Even if Nick Young were to magically turn into a star tomorrow"... I never claimed anyone called him a star. The point is, in an analogy between Young and Goodwin... it does not matter how well Young plays for the Lakers. The WIZARDS are the team who handled the start of his career, and handled it very poorly... arguably because they did little to curb his multitude of mistakes he made as a young player.

Goodwin is out there with a PER of 8, he is only 4 months removed from his 19th birthday. Your campaign to throw him out on the court for 20 minutes a night to rush his development is dumb. You should be happy he is playing at all because most teams would keep a player this young and playing this poorly deeeeep on the end of their bench.

 

[Catlover]

I don't believe that short rotations are desirable when you want to play a fastbreak game. Its more important to keep the tempo maxed out - and Ish Smith did that just fine, assisting at a good rate, too. His shooting has been poor but he is a pretty good defender - he stays in front of his man better than Dragic does - his steal rate was good and he didn't make bad gambles to make them.

Its not at all clear to me that Bledsoe is at his most valuable when he's playing 36 minutes a game - to me he seems to at his best when he's burning energy like mad. If he can only keep it up for 30 minutes a game then keep his average around 28 so he can step it up in the playoffs - its never wrong to plan on how your team is going play better in the playoffs, because its going to be needed.

Bledsoe is playing for a contract. How did keeping Dice's minutes down in a similar situation work out for Ainge and the Suns? Besides, we really don't know what he's capable of just yet. It takes time to build up that kind of stamina and he won't develop that stamina sitting on the bench. We don't have a single player in the top 20 for minutes played. I think Jeff is doing a great job managing minutes and developing a quality bench and every stat I've seen says the same thing.

As for Ish, he had a very good game (for him) last night. But that was one of his few good ones, most of the time he's been a liability out there. I like his defensive effort but he typically gets abused by the bigger guards. Saying his shooting is "poor" might be an understatement. For his career he shoots 36% from the field and around 27% from the three. He'd have to go on a hot streak this season to match his career numbers as he's shooting under 33% from the field and 11% from the three.

 

[Errntknght]

I looked up Young's career numbers to see what a mishandled player would show up like in his statistics. It looks fairly normal to me to tell the truth. He's having a good year with the Lakers so far but its not a dramatic change from his past.

 

[Errntknght]

I didn't take into account that Bledsoe might take it wrongly if his minutes were less than what he thinks he needs to showcase himself. Jeff and McD will have to handle it carefully, making sure he knows why they're limiting his minutes - if they decide to do it at all. It is not incumbent on them to do exactly what Bled thinks is best for himself if it is not what is best for the team. What I was suggesting is what I happen to think is best for the team and that definitely includes the state the players will be in during the playoffs - you want them to be reaching their peak performance then and that might entail limitations during 82 game qualifying/seeding tournament called the regular season. Strange thoughts for the Suns, I know.

The situation with McDyess was not about limiting his minutes per se, it was not letting him play in the 4th quarters. It was an idiot move and I was all over it as soon it could be seen to be a pattern. If Horny was replicating that move with Bledsoe I'd be just as upset.

 

[Catlover]

I didn't take into account that Bledsoe might take it wrongly if his minutes were less than what he thinks he needs to showcase himself. Jeff and McD will have to handle it carefully, making sure he knows why they're limiting his minutes - if they decide to do it at all. It is not incumbent on them to do exactly what Bled thinks is best for himself if it is not what is best for the team. What I was suggesting is what I happen to think is best for the team and that definitely includes the state the players will be in during the playoffs - you want them to be reaching their peak performance then and that might entail limitations during 82 game qualifying/seeding tournament called the regular season. Strange thoughts for the Suns, I know.

The situation with McDyess was not about limiting his minutes per se, it was not letting him play in the 4th quarters. It was an idiot move and I was all over it as soon it could be seen to be a pattern. If Horny was replicating that move with Bledsoe I'd be just as upset.

The situation with Dice was very similar to what this has the potential to become. He was coming up on free agency and his minutes were being limited by the coach. Dice wasn't prevented from playing during the 4th quarter, he just wasn't brought back in for the last few minutes like a star might be. When he'd commit a stupid foul, which he did quite often, Danny would put him on the bench. Ainge used the allocation of minutes to motivate him to learn how to play smart defense instead of just going after every block and it worked. By the end of the season he was regularly on the court at crunch time and he'd become our best defender.

Ainge handled it carefully, made sure Dice knew why his minutes were limited which was demonstrated by every word that came out of Antonio's mouth when he did an interview. But once the rumors started circulating that it was management driven in hopes of keeping his salary demands low, our fate was sealed. I'm certain the same thing could happen again if we were to limit Bledsoe to 28 minutes per game. Someone would surely point out to him that there hasn't been a single star in this game whose minutes had been so manipulated.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Dice was unrestricted. That's a huge difference.

Also, we were willing to pay Dice the max, so what did it matter if his minutes were limited some. He was just a weak minded individual that Denver was able to manipulate through John Lucas (who was going to be a Denver assistant coach, but was not officially hired yet). He was in Dice's ear when the Suns were restricted from talking to him because of the lockout. Dice regretted that decision.

The nba is much more sophisticated than this. Its not like the Suns are hiding Bledsoe on the bench. They are giving him lots of minutes, and every GM in the league knows how to determine how efficient a player is when he is on the court. He ought to be thankful he isnt being pushed so hard that he risks injury in the face of a new contract.

 

[Catlover]

Dice was unrestricted. That's a huge difference.

Also, we were willing to pay Dice the max, so what did it matter if his minutes were limited some. He was just a weak minded individual that Denver was able to manipulate through John Lucas (who was going to be a Denver assistant coach, but was not officially hired yet). He was in Dice's ear when the Suns were restricted from talking to him because of the lockout. Dice regretted that decision.

The nba is much more sophisticated than this. Its not like the Suns are hiding Bledsoe on the bench. They are giving him lots of minutes, and every GM in the league knows how to determine how efficient a player is when he is on the court. He ought to be thankful he isnt being pushed so hard that he risks injury in the face of a new contract.

Did you skip a post or two? We are arguing over whether there could be problems if Bledsoe was held to 28 minutes per game. Find me a young, healthy max or near max player that averages under 30 minutes per game. I don't think you can.

 

[elindholm]

Find me a young, healthy max or near max player that averages under 30 minutes per game. I don't think you can.

The closest example I can think of is Faried, who isn't "near max" but could quite conceivably earn $10M/yr for his next contract. But I agree, if you're shelling out top dollar for someone, it only makes sense that you'd want them on the floor for as much as they could be effective.

 

[sunsfan88]

Try reading that again hot shot.

"Even if Nick Young were to magically turn into a star tomorrow"... I never claimed anyone called him a star. The point is, in an analogy between Young and Goodwin... it does not matter how well Young plays for the Lakers. The WIZARDS are the team who handled the start of his career, and handled it very poorly... arguably because they did little to curb his multitude of mistakes he made as a young player.

Goodwin is out there with a PER of 8, he is only 4 months removed from his 19th birthday. Your campaign to throw him out on the court for 20 minutes a night to rush his development is dumb. You should be happy he is playing at all because most teams would keep a player this young and playing this poorly deeeeep on the end of their bench.

Who cares what Goodwin's stats is? He's playing such limited minutes, that his stats cannot be taken seriously because it's manipulated.

Stats don't matter when a player doesn't play consistent minutes. If I'm in the NBA and I play a full week and I go 3-10 in 3's. Then rot on the bench for some time doesn't mean I can't shoot 3's. Just means that I never got the opportunity to get into rhythm.

And PER is such a stupid stat, I hope even you wouldn't try to make an argument off of that.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Who cares what Goodwin's stats is? He's playing such limited minutes, that his stats cannot be taken seriously because it's manipulated.

Stats don't matter when a player doesn't play consistent minutes. If I'm in the NBA and I play a full week and I go 3-10 in 3's. Then rot on the bench for some time doesn't mean I can't shoot 3's. Just means that I never got the opportunity to get into rhythm.

And PER is such a stupid stat, I hope even you wouldn't try to make an argument off of that.

Completely agree about stats not meaning much when a player isn't getting consistent minutes. Though I do find PER to be a very useful stat, but just like just about any other stat it is useless if the player being discussed isn't playing consistent minutes.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Laker fans love Swaggy P in LA though.

Yea but Goodwin has been aggressive though. I have watched 80% of the Suns games this season and whenever Goodwin is on the court and has the ball, he is driving to the rim at will. Almost to a fault because he turns down open looks occasionally to force the drive. He just doesn't finish at the rim yet because refs don't respect him at all, he needs to get stronger and cause he just needs to flat out get better at finishing in traffic.

But my point is that he won't get better at it by playing 7-10 mins a night. I just think he needs around 15-20 mins a night so he can improve and so that he has time to get into a rhythm in the game.

Sure he has been aggressive in the sense that he is attacking the basket, but have you considered that part of the reason he isn't getting consistent minutes has to do with the fact that he is passing up open shots to try and force the issue. Sometimes being aggressive and not tentative is taking a jump shot when it's open.