Hornets @ Suns 1-6-19

[1Sun]

how about, now that half of the season is over
let's see if Igor continues to not be blamed for coaching the Suns to the worst record in the league

Not to mention the worst record in franchise history.

 

[sdscard4]

Worst worst worst worst....common theme for the worst coach. 6 game skid after we 'turned the corner' freaking pathetic

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You're probably right. It's inexplicable. We need a point guard. If we don't get Zion I'd be excited for Morant.

The lack of a single rebound in a tight game drives me crazy.

 

[1tinsoldier]

right.
*worst record in the league,
*worst record in Suns history
*6 game skid
and the joke from the cuckoo-for-Koko crowd
is that we have to go out of our way to find things to blame Igor for

 

[BC867]

Final:

Hornets 116 - Suns 113

Edit:

Hornets 119 - Suns 113.... on a Kemba 3 pointer at buzzer.

'Looked more like a 6-pointer. Tom said that he was so far out he thought he flung it up high enough to let time expire.

 

[Cheesebeef]

right.
*worst record in the league,
*worst record in Suns history
*6 game skid
and the joke from the cuckoo-for-Koko crowd
is that we have to go out of our way to find things to blame Igor for

take solace in the fact that the jokes are coming from the exact same crowd who did the exact same thing defending McD to death for YEARS in the face of volumes of evidence that he was atrocious. Don't worry, they'll eventually turn on Koko too the moment the organization tells them to... just like they did McD.

 

[Western Font]

These board call-outs always seem to be done without nuance. A lot of the people defending McD at numerous points did so with the qualification that they didn't think he'd be improved upon. We'll see what happens this coming off-season, but right now wanting to keep McD instead of Jones doesn't seem crazy to me. It also doesn't mean that anyone wants McD back now that he's gone.

 

[AzStevenCal]

These board call-outs always seem to be done without nuance. A lot of the people defending McD at numerous points did so with the qualification that they didn't think he'd be improved upon. We'll see what happens this coming off-season, but right now wanting to keep McD instead of Jones doesn't seem crazy to me. It also doesn't mean that anyone wants McD back now that he's gone.

You're not wrong. At all. But I'm sure I get lumped into the McD and even Sarver support groups so I would probably just come across as defensive if I argued against the call outs.

I've defended Sarver and McD many times but for the most part its been on specific points, not in general. I've always thought we'd be much better off with a different owner than Sarver even though I don't believe he's actually the worst owner in the game nor do I believe he's just another Donald Sterling. I've also disagreed with the frequent claim that he's too cheap to pay for good players. He really hasn't been. He's too cheap to run the organization the right way but I think it's clear he would spend to win. He just seems to think that winning is solely about getting the right players and misses the fact that it's tough to get and keep the right players if you don't spend for quality analysis, player amenties and top notch management.

I also don't agree that he was the problem in the last CBA negotiations, I'm convinced that claim was manufactured by reps from LA and New York who wanted to handcuff him and Gilbert. Those two owners were leading the charge for heavy cap violation penalties and New York and LA were fighting for no cap or heavily reduced penalties as an alternative. And I've also supported him when he gets blamed for interfering on every single thing although it's clear, he has stuck his nose in more than he should.

I've defended McD on a lot of things too even though I've never been particularly fond of him either. Early on, I thought he deserved a lot of rope because of the horrible situation he was hired into. But I've been a very vocal critic of the poor job he did in handling a couple of player conflicts and of his propensity to open his mouth and say the exact wrong thing at the worst time. I think he's a lot more like Hinkie than any GM should be. He should be in the back room crunching numbers and making deals, not out in front of an organization.

As for Jones, I'd probably come across as a Jones apologist too because I believe he's being judged without reason. All the flap over Chandler was just noise IMO. Whether he's capable of doing the job or not, I have no idea but I see no reason that he couldn't grow into the position and do it well. Maybe he's just another Watson, talks a good game but is essentially useless. But there were warning signs with Watson, it's been my experience in the past that people that constantly drop names are pretty much useless. I've yet to see any real warning signs with Jones. I've yet to see any real positives either but it's early (on both counts).

 

[Western Font]

McD had some definite personnel management problems: those were my biggest issues with him. He blew the 2016 draft, but I guess I did, too, because I was excited about it. So were most of the media outlets.

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/suns-draft-grades.236778/

Although re-reading some of the threads, most posters seemed to be cautious about Bender and Chriss for the exact reasons that have played out. I did notice that there wasn't a lot of love for any other particular players at #4 though, aside from some consistent Hield mentions.

In retrospect it looks like the real mistake there was the bad hedge in trading up for Chriss, rather than simply taking one of him or Bender at #4.

 

[1tinsoldier]

These board call-outs always seem to be done without nuance. A lot of the people defending McD at numerous points did so with the qualification that they didn't think he'd be improved upon. We'll see what happens this coming off-season, but right now wanting to keep McD instead of Jones doesn't seem crazy to me. It also doesn't mean that anyone wants McD back now that he's gone.

the hypocrisy is not posters who admit there's a problem but promote patience because there's no better options at the moment. it's posters who try to suppress disagreement with insults or sarcasm, instead of DEBATING THE CRITICISMS RAISED because they need official Suns organization validation before they're willing to pull their heads out of the sand (or a place even darker)

yes, i'd prefer McD than just Sarver calling the shots with Jones as his mouthpiece
yes, i'd prefer Igor than the guy who mops up sweat on the court
but that won't stop me from calling them out
and i don't have to have the solution to discuss the problem.
in fact, the first step to identifying a solution is identifying the problem

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

The issue - to me - with the coaching debate/hate is that it is mostly based upon conjecture.
The facts:
1. Youngest team in the league - youngest starting lineup in the league by far. This includes youngest starters at Center (super-important without a true PF) and PG (vital).
2. Rookie head coach - lots of experience but none as the head man. Comes highly regarded and "successful". Staff has a mix of old and new.
3. Second-worst record in the league.

Anything other than this is conjecture, IMO.
1. Doesn't know how to use Ayton. Says who - us couch jockeys? How many times does Ayton need to come out and say "I need to play harder. They are telling me what to do and I just need to do it." for people to believe that this is mainly on Ayton? Some here argue that he is a terrible fit with Ayton. Again, what makes you think this? Have you been to practices? In the locker room? In the office? If so, please let us know because I would really like to know (seriously) what is said and done in these places so I can compare with the results on the court.
2. Poor offense. I myself think the offense is a little slower to come than I would like. I don't know what all he has had to back off of with such a young and poorly trained crew, but I would like to see more layered cuts and interior passing. We are 26th out of 30 in offense, and we aren't the Grizzlies on defense. So how much is on the coach and how much is on the players? Tough to gauge, but I think this is mostly where the arguments lie. Does changing the HC make the players any better? Does their IQ go up and they suddenly know how to make a pass? I personally think this is a time-served issue. And I certainly do feel like I am serving time while watching some of these games...
3. Terrible defense. Second chance points KILL this team. Rebounding is a team effort but each has to do his part. Nobody on this team boxes out, in general. I know that is on the players and not on the coaches. The coach can replace those players in the lineup, sure, but there are not a lot of NBA players on the roster. I would really like to see some differences here, especially since the offense has a ways to go. The other thing that drives me crazy is pick/roll defense and allowing the players to drive baseline. Ayton is too young to react properly to these plays and they lead to easy buckets. Something needs to be done here. Mostly on coaching here, I think.
4. Lack of energy or urgency. They played with great energy and urgency during their streak. I doubt the coaches did anything different. So what changed - both to make it happen and then make it disappear? Perhaps the Ariza trade sparked it, perhaps the tough Washington loss stamped it out. Don't know. But these attributes I don't put on the coach. He can control it with playing time. But this is where job description balance comes in. Is he supposed to develop the young guys or sit them to play whom?

I am sure there are a dozen other points. I don't think Igor has done anything to warrant an extension, but I also don't think he has done anything to warrant being fired. Coaching is a tough gig. Everyone always knows how to do it better than the coach. Ask Thibodeau. Maybe we can pick him up off the waiver wire? He got fired after demolishing the Lakers last night.

And for those wanting a multi-year veteran proven coach, which one of those (disregarding current availability) is ready to step in given fact #1...

 

[1tinsoldier]

The issue - to me - with the coaching debate/hate is that it is mostly based upon conjecture.
The facts:
1. Youngest team in the league - youngest starting lineup in the league by far. This includes youngest starters at Center (super-important without a true PF) and PG (vital).
2. Rookie head coach - lots of experience but none as the head man. Comes highly regarded and "successful". Staff has a mix of old and new.
3. Second-worst record in the league.

footnotes on the Facts:
1. team's youth is often cited as an excuse. i'd argue it's this team's strength. Holmes, Bridges, JJ, Oubre, and Melton's energy and defense is the redeeming character of this team
2. head coach was a head couch in Europe, was a "successful" assistant for 17 years but was not "highly regarded" enough to be promoted by any of his prior teams.
3. a half game out of worst record, if that's any consolation

as for the conjecture. you'll find some with reasoning and or evidence in my criticisms
-- and no "hate". i like Igor. i seek people with his personality type for friendship. and i wish him well in a position he's better suited for.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

footnotes on the Facts:
1. team's youth is often cited as an excuse. i'd argue it's this team's strength. Holmes, Bridges, JJ, Oubre, and Melton's energy and defense is the redeeming character of this team
2. head coach was a head couch in Europe, was a "successful" assistant for 17 years but was not "highly regarded" enough to be promoted by any of his prior teams.
3. a half game out of worst record, if that's any consolation

as for the conjecture. you'll find some with reasoning and or evidence in my criticisms
-- and no "hate". i like Igor. i seek people with his personality type for friendship. and i wish him well in a position he's better suited for.

I am not going to argue with your statements. The facts, as were stated, are the facts. Feel free to add more facts...

You can view the facts how you want, but then it becomes subjective, as are your footnotes.
I put successful in quotes because winning a championship - in any arena - would define success, I think. But that was not in the NBA - hence the quotes. The most qualified candidate they interviewed was Budenholzer, who turned them down. We can all speculate as to why, but he did. Was it due to not getting full control (getting some high-priced vets to shore up the roster?) or a distaste for McD or Sarver or Booker? Who knows? What I do know is that a first-year coach with a young roster has not yielded wins. But it was/is what was available. Until today. Clifford is not doing so great in Orlando - veteran. Fizzdale is not doing too hot in NY - veteran. Can't really say that pulling a trigger on someone unproven was the wrong thing to do. And I am still not ready to say it was.

Now we will see what the non-guaranteed contract deadline brings tonight....

 

[Proximo]

in fact, the first step to identifying a solution is identifying the problem

Yes this is correct. What on earth makes you so sure you have correctly identified the problem is Igor?

I just don't see it. Losing does not automatically equal coach's fault. It just doesn't.

In the NBA 90% of the outcome of most games comes down to having players usually superstars just outperforming their counterparts.

Look at Lebron, he has made it to the finals numerous times with a bunch of different coaches. Did he just luck into a lot of different good coaches - or did his outstanding play make that happen?

Honestly I just don't believe NBA coaches have much impact at all. Bad coaches have the potential to screw things up, but they largely have very little to do with wins and losses. Talented players win games.

I really think people on here just want to blame somebody. Igor is convenient, because it is hard to blame 10 players most who are younger than 23 years old, and who they genuinely want to root for.

 

[SirStefan32]

You're not wrong. At all. But I'm sure I get lumped into the McD and even Sarver support groups so I would probably just come across as defensive if I argued against the call outs.

I've defended Sarver and McD many times but for the most part its been on specific points, not in general. I've always thought we'd be much better off with a different owner than Sarver even though I don't believe he's actually the worst owner in the game nor do I believe he's just another Donald Sterling. I've also disagreed with the frequent claim that he's too cheap to pay for good players. He really hasn't been. He's too cheap to run the organization the right way but I think it's clear he would spend to win. He just seems to think that winning is solely about getting the right players and misses the fact that it's tough to get and keep the right players if you don't spend for quality analysis, player amenties and top notch management.

I also don't agree that he was the problem in the last CBA negotiations, I'm convinced that claim was manufactured by reps from LA and New York who wanted to handcuff him and Gilbert. Those two owners were leading the charge for heavy cap violation penalties and New York and LA were fighting for no cap or heavily reduced penalties as an alternative. And I've also supported him when he gets blamed for interfering on every single thing although it's clear, he has stuck his nose in more than he should.

I've defended McD on a lot of things too even though I've never been particularly fond of him either. Early on, I thought he deserved a lot of rope because of the horrible situation he was hired into. But I've been a very vocal critic of the poor job he did in handling a couple of player conflicts and of his propensity to open his mouth and say the exact wrong thing at the worst time. I think he's a lot more like Hinkie than any GM should be. He should be in the back room crunching numbers and making deals, not out in front of an organization.

As for Jones, I'd probably come across as a Jones apologist too because I believe he's being judged without reason. All the flap over Chandler was just noise IMO. Whether he's capable of doing the job or not, I have no idea but I see no reason that he couldn't grow into the position and do it well. Maybe he's just another Watson, talks a good game but is essentially useless. But there were warning signs with Watson, it's been my experience in the past that people that constantly drop names are pretty much useless. I've yet to see any real warning signs with Jones. I've yet to see any real positives either but it's early (on both counts).

Excellent post, Steve. I think a lot of us get dumped into the "apologists" category simply because we challenge certain things that the other camp tends to repeat over and over again.

 

[1Sun]

Yes this is correct. What on earth makes you so sure you have correctly identified the problem is Igor?

I just don't see it. Losing does not automatically equal coach's fault. It just doesn't.

In the NBA 90% of the outcome of most games comes down to having players usually superstars just outperforming their counterparts.

Look at Lebron, he has made it to the finals numerous times with a bunch of different coaches. Did he just luck into a lot of different good coaches - or did his outstanding play make that happen?

Honestly I just don't believe NBA coaches have much impact at all. Bad coaches have the potential to screw things up, but they largely have very little to do with wins and losses. Talented players win games.

I really think people on here just want to blame somebody. Igor is convenient, because it is hard to blame 10 players most who are younger than 23 years old, and who they genuinely want to root for.

For me, it's the fact that the team and most of the players are getting progressively worse under Igor's watch.

 

[Superbone]

the hypocrisy is not posters who admit there's a problem but promote patience because there's no better options at the moment. it's posters who try to suppress disagreement with insults or sarcasm, instead of DEBATING THE CRITICISMS RAISED because they need official Suns organization validation before they're willing to pull their heads out of the sand (or a place even darker)

yes, i'd prefer McD than just Sarver calling the shots with Jones as his mouthpiece
yes, i'd prefer Igor than the guy who mops up sweat on the court
but that won't stop me from calling them out
and i don't have to have the solution to discuss the problem.
in fact, the first step to identifying a solution is identifying the problem

Repeatedly. Over and over. Boring.

 

[1tinsoldier]

Yes this is correct. What on earth makes you so sure you have correctly identified the problem is Igor?

i'm not sure. that's why i keep debating it when i see new evidence of my theory each game

I just don't see it. Losing does not automatically equal coach's fault. It just doesn't.

you are correct, sir. it can only be additional evidence

Honestly I just don't believe NBA coaches have much impact at all. Bad coaches have the potential to screw things up, but they largely have very little to do with wins and losses. Talented players win games.

yes, bad coaches can screw things up -- and that's a big impact. especially if it's screwing up the development of rookies. and the less stars and superstars on the team the more their strategies have a big impact. iow, Igor has a big impact on this team.

Igor is convenient, because it is hard to blame 10 players most who are younger than 23 years old, and who they genuinely want to root for.

yes, he's paid handsomely to accept the responsibility and conjecture and speculation plays a part of the firing of every coach.

it seems to me that the same posters who are critical of Igor have also been critical of the young stars we root for, like Ayton and Booker, and the coach defenders tend to get their feathers ruffled when we criticize them too.

 

[taz02]

I don't think it is all on Igor and I'm sure he will improve over time but.........

Last season we intentionally tanked, fired the coach and traded our second best player three games into the season, Booker missed 28 games and we finished with 21 wins.

We added the 1st and 10th pick in the draft and we are on pace to win 18 games this season.

The coach must shoulder some of the blame.

 

[Proximo]

For me, it's the fact that the team and most of the players are getting progressively worse under Igor's watch.

I don't understand this statement.

Jackson and Booker are about the only two who were here last year.

You aren't seriously arguing they are playing worse now than they did at the beginning of the season are you?

 

[Proximo]

I don't think it is all on Igor and I'm sure he will improve over time but.........

Last season we intentionally tanked, fired the coach and traded our second best player three games into the season, Booker missed 28 games and we finished with 21 wins.

We added the 1st and 10th pick in the draft and we are on pace to win 18 games this season.

The coach must shoulder some of the blame.

Well - first off we have not played the same schedule, and the opposing teams are not the same as they were last year.

The west is overall stronger than last year. Booker has missed 10+ games - so really that is no different than last season.

I expect the team to do much better in the second half of the season.

 

[1Sun]

I don't understand this statement.

Jackson and Booker are about the only two who were here last year.

You aren't seriously arguing they are playing worse now than they did at the beginning of the season are you?

Booker absolutely is. Jackson is all over the place. The vast majority of the rest (with the exception of Ayton, who is also all over the place) are worse now than they were when the season started. Not a single rotation player outside of Holmes and Crawford is showing steady progress or consistent production. In my opinion, that is a major coaching red flag.

 

[1tinsoldier]

Repeatedly. Over and over. Boring.

and that's a fresh and exciting take that you've obviously put a lot of time and thought into

thanks for your contributions to this forum
and i apologize for taking up your time with mine

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Well - first off we have not played the same schedule, and the opposing teams are not the same as they were last year.

The west is overall stronger than last year. Booker has missed 10+ games - so really that is no different than last season.

I expect the team to do much better in the second half of the season.

This exactly. The Suns have played something like the 2nd hardest schedule in the league so far this season and have had their best player miss 10 games and left early in 2 others.

With a healthier Booker and a more reasonable schedule they would almost certainly be on a pace very similar to last season (maybe even better).

Also the team has somehow gotten even younger than last year and have something like 9 players on the roster that weren't here last year.

So they have a new coach/system, a bunch of new players, are even younger, the rim protection has gotten even worse with a rookie Ayton and no PF, played one of the toughest schedules and they still have no PG. Not hard to see reasons why they could have a worse record than last year and it not be the new coaches fault.

 

[taz02]

Well - first off we have not played the same schedule, and the opposing teams are not the same as they were last year.

The west is overall stronger than last year. Booker has missed 10+ games - so really that is no different than last season.

I expect the team to do much better in the second half of the season.

I hope you are right.

I would still expect some improvement from last season when we were trying to lose and this season we are actually trying to win..... I get what you are saying though.

Let me put it this way. We are 9-32, everyone in this organization from the top down shares in the blame and needs to improve, including the coach.