How complete is Joe’s game? Lebron-esque yet?

[se7en]

I got ripped the other day when I dared to say that Joe’s all-around game could be nearly as complete as Lebron or Kobe. When you throw in Joe’s 3 point shooting it may be even more complete. Now I certainly didn’t mean to infer that he was better than those players. Just meant to say that Joe should definitely be placed among the “few” players with a complete game.

Now after Joe’s performance in game 4, I’m wondering if people might reconsider Joe’s potential future greatness. Or will people at least pull back on comments that I was crazy for daring to suggest such a ludicrous comparison?

 

[Cheesebeef]

no - your comments are STILL ludicrous. JJ is a great talent - an unbelievable ball player - he's still not comparable to the freakish skills, power, and speed that Lebron has.

He's a stud - but I still think guys like Amare, Bron and Wade are at another level entirely. I put JJ more on par with the great players in the past of a James Worthy, Joe Dumars - basically just fantastic ball players who are as clutch as they come. But in the super-duper stratosphere - after one game? Come on dude.

 

[se7en]

One game? Dude, where have you been? Joe’s been playing like this for a lot of games (including most of the regular season). In fact, if you remove the game in which he was injured and the comeback game when he was rusty, he’s been putting up Lebron like numbers throughout the playoffs. The only difference is that Joe is putting up these numbers in games that matter – the playoffs (and unlike Lebron and Kobe, Joe happens to be the 2nd best 3 point shooter in the NBA and the best in the playoffs by a long shot). And all against superior Western Conference teams.

And again I’m not talking about dominant players that are great at a few things. Amare can’t play defense, Shaq can’t shoot from beyond 4 ft, Wade is not very good at 3 point shooting.

I’m talking about “ALL-AROUND” game. I don’t think you could name more than a handful of players with a complete game. I can only think of 3. Kobe, Lebron and Ray Allen. T-Mac doesn’t cut in on defense. And of all of those only Allen has the lethal 3 point shot.


I think Joe is on his way to future stardom.

 

[elindholm]

Last game sold me. I've been one of the last converts to Johnson, if not the very last, but I'm on board now. I'm sure he'll still have an off game from time to time, since everyone does, but he has shown a consistent ability to perform when it matters the most.

If this team stays more or less together, Johnson is going to be the Suns' most dangerous crunch-time weapon in a few years. By that point, Nash will be looking even more to distribute and defenses will routinely collapse on Stoudemire, which means the fallback option will be someone who can shoot the lights out and also get off a decent shot when tightly covered.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Joe J has really impressed the hel out of me since his return, but to put him on a level of Kobe or LeBron is a bit too much at this point in his career. I think he's more like Michael Finley than the other two guys.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

cheese and 7, you're talking about two different things.

i don't think 7 is arguing that jj is as good as 'bron or kobe (if he is, then he's mistaken). i don't even think he's arguing that jj will ever be as good as bron and kobe (again, correct me if i'm wrong). i think he's just saying that he's as complete a player as those two. and there i think he's close. jj is not the shut-down defender that kobe can be. he's a good defender, but limited by his athleticism. he also doesn't have the sixth sense that bron seems to possess as a passer. again, he's a good passer, but not an elite level passer for his position which bron likely will be.

and i think cheese is arguing that jj just isn't as good as, nor has the ability to reach the heights that, both bron and jj can/have achieve(d). i agree with this too. jj is never going to average over 20pts a game. maybe 20 (that's what i'm hoping), but prolly never more. he just doesn't possess the explosiveness of superstars.

these are two different arguments.

 

[jibikao]

JJ was awesome last night.

We need his one-on-one in clutch time and he showed why we should resign him.

 

[Yuma]

cheese and 7, you're talking about two different things.

i don't think 7 is arguing that jj is as good as 'bron or kobe (if he is, then he's mistaken). i don't even think he's arguing that jj will ever be as good as bron and kobe (again, correct me if i'm wrong). i think he's just saying that he's as complete a player as those two. and there i think he's close. jj is not the shut-down defender that kobe can be. he's a good defender, but limited by his athleticism. he also doesn't have the sixth sense that bron seems to possess as a passer. again, he's a good passer, but not an elite level passer for his position which bron likely will be.

and i think cheese is arguing that jj just isn't as good as, nor has the ability to reach the heights that, both bron and jj can/have achieve(d). i agree with this too. jj is never going to average over 20pts a game. maybe 20 (that's what i'm hoping), but prolly never more. he just doesn't possess the explosiveness of superstars.

these are two different arguments.

I think he has the explosiveness, he just doesn't have the assertiveness the other guys have. Kobe, Lebron, and JJ are similar (not identical) in overall talent. But Lebron and Kobe will demand the ball, and will outright challenge a guy on defense when the chips are down. JJ likes to be a role player. Lebron and Kobe like to be the main player. I see JJ make plays only the top guys make, but then he goes back to playing his regular pace. Where Lebron and Kobe feed off that and try and make another play the next time they get the ball, or ball hawk on defense immediatly.

 

[se7en]

Ouchie, you’re about right. I’m talking “all-around” skills rather than superstar domination. As for thinking he will never average 20 points a game? Didn’t he already average over 17 during the regular season as a 3rd option? Now he’s averaging like 25 points in the playoffs (remove the injury game and comeback rust game). I think you’re mistaken if you think that Joe will go back to being the 3rd option next season after what he’s proven. I think what we can expect is Joe breaching that 20-point threshold next season and Marion sulking even more as he gets less touches.

Mao, I think you’re wrong to put Joe in the Finley category. Finley was never a great shooter, nor did he posses the distribution capabilities as Joe. Nor do I feel he was ever as clutch as Joe. Finley simply never had these types of all-around game skills that Joe has. I’d take Joe right now, who is still growing over Finley during his best years. I think Joe is that good.

People keep waiting for this let down game or inconsistency to show up from Joe. It just isn’t happening, even after a horrific injury. The guy is proving to be an elite player, game after game. You can’t dispute it. Joe was making Michael Jordan shots out there.

 

[se7en]

I think he has the explosiveness, he just doesn't have the assertiveness the other guys have. Kobe, Lebron, and JJ are similar (not identical) in overall talent. But Lebron and Kobe will demand the ball, and will outright challenge a guy on defense when the chips are down. JJ likes to be a role player. Lebron and Kobe like to be the main player. I see JJ make plays only the top guys make, but then he goes back to playing his regular pace. Where Lebron and Kobe feed off that and try and make another play the next time they get the ball, or ball hawk on defense immediatly.

I don’t know the answer to the question of whether Joe can be a assertive or dominate a game the way Lebron, Kobe or T-Mac does. Those players aren’t forced to share the ball with 3 all-stars. Joe shares the ball equally with 4 other starters, which is what he’s supposed to do in the Suns offense. If you replaced T-Mac on the Rockets with Joe, and made him a 1st scoring option, he’d probably average 30 points. I just don’t know how you can not say he’s capable after what he’s done within the limited confines of sharing with 4 other quality starters.

 

[PHX2]

JJ was awesome last night.

We need his one-on-one in clutch time and he showed why we should resign him.

I agree.

I think all of NBA nation saw just how important JJ is to the Suns and what kinda of impact his is capable of making...I mean I think people knew but after last night they knew KNEW

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think he has the explosiveness, he just doesn't have the assertiveness the other guys have. Kobe, Lebron, and JJ are similar (not identical) in overall talent. But Lebron and Kobe will demand the ball, and will outright challenge a guy on defense when the chips are down. JJ likes to be a role player. Lebron and Kobe like to be the main player. I see JJ make plays only the top guys make, but then he goes back to playing his regular pace. Where Lebron and Kobe feed off that and try and make another play the next time they get the ball, or ball hawk on defense immediatly.

here you are flat out wrong. jj is not the athlete that bron, kobe, and mcgrady are. he cannot jump as high, he doesn't have the shake to brake ankles, and he doesn't have the suddeness to blow by people. rarely, if ever (and i can't remember once) do you see jj dunk on someone. the other guys listed do it regularly. and it's not an inclination, it's ability.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ouchie, you’re about right. I’m talking “all-around” skills rather than superstar domination. As for thinking he will never average 20 points a game? Didn’t he already average over 17 during the regular season as a 3rd option? Now he’s averaging like 25 points in the playoffs (remove the injury game and comeback rust game). I think you’re mistaken if you think that Joe will go back to being the 3rd option next season after what he’s proven. I think what we can expect is Joe breaching that 20-point threshold next season and Marion sulking even more as he gets less touches.

you didn't fully read my post. i said i don't think he'll average OVER 20pts. the other day i was telling cheese that i fully expect jj to avg 20pts next season.

 

[yotes1921]

Ouchie you obviously didn’t see the Suns Boston game last year, JJ went baseline and made one of the best dunks I have ever seen. It’s just not his makeup, he has the ability he just does it different.

 

[se7en]

you didn't fully read my post. i said i don't think he'll average OVER 20pts. the other day i was telling cheese that i fully expect jj to avg 20pts next season.

If you mean he won’t average over 20 points because he’s not good enough I disagree. Now if you mean that he won’t average over 20 points because he has to share the ball with 4 other talented starters, than that we can agree.

So my question was do you really believe that if Joe were starting on the Rockets in place of T-Mac that he wouldn’t be averaging well over 20 points a game? If asked to be that goto guy or scoring machine, I think he could be. But that’s just not the role he’s been asked to play on THIS SUNS TEAM. And that’s as it should be.

 

[Goldfield]

JJ is quietly awsome...

And he is only gunna get better. Lock him up at any cost.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Joe Johnson is to this team what Joe Dumars was to the Pistons of the 80's.

He's quiet, consistent on both ends, and essential. There would be no championships banners in Detroit without Dumars.

If we had Joe at full strength in this series, we would be tied at 2-2 right now (at worst, we could be up 3-1). But injuries are part of the game.

 

[elindholm]

i said i don't think he'll average OVER 20pts. the other day i was telling cheese that i fully expect jj to avg 20pts next season.

So you mean, 20 points per game exactly? If you "fully expect" 20 but don't think he'll be over -- so, for instance, not 20.1 -- aren't you cutting it just a little thin?

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not sure we know what JJ is capable of doing. T-Mac was not a dominant player in Toronto. LeBron is flashy, but gets to dominate the ball.

None the less, JJ is not the kind of guy who wants to be the main man. Kobe and T-Mac make a lot of clutch shots and miss a lot of important shots because they never see a shot they don't like. Great offensive players always think they can make the shot even when they should pass. JJ isn't like that, which is why he such a great fit for the Suns.

 

[sunsfn]

JJ is 23 years old, he can play defense, he can score, HE CAN DUNK IF HE WANTS TO, he can play point guard, he can play off guard, he can play small forward, he can jump, he can run, he can guard power forwards. Next year he will be better than he is this year, and in two years he will be better yet.

He is the 3rd scorer on this team, he could easily be the 1st or 2nd if he had to be, and he has shown he can do that in crunch time. He is capable of scoring in many ways, and that dunk in Boston was just one of them.

If JJ is not an all star (should be) next year, he absolutely will be in two years.

I am not so sure he does not want to be the main guy, as much as he knows this team and that Amare is the main guy and he is fine with that. That is what makes him so valuable to any team.

10 mil for 6 years coming up!!!

P.S. I think the teams can sign players before June 30th.
(The Sonics say they are going to try to do so with some of their players)

If that is the case the suns may try to sign JJ right away.

 

[elindholm]

P.S. I think the teams can sign players before June 30th.

But I think the rule is that a team has to extend its own rising RFA by October something of the previous season, otherwise wait until the free-for-all period opens in July.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Joe Johnson is to this team what Joe Dumars was to the Pistons of the 80's.

He's quiet, consistent on both ends, and essential. There would be no championships banners in Detroit without Dumars.

If we had Joe at full strength in this series, we would be tied at 2-2 right now (at worst, we could be up 3-1). But injuries are part of the game.

totally agree - the guy is the 3rd best player on the Suns hands down and when we finally win the title either next year or the eyar after that - and Nash is a little older - he'll probably be the the 2nd best player on the team. Lock him up at any cost - even the Max if someone offers it to him.

However - he's not MVP-type good - but that doesn't mean I don't see how great of a player he is and how great of aplayer he will be. There's just a different level between the Amares, Wades and Lebrons of the world versus JJ. I think the Michael Finley comparison is way off as well. Joe's got ice in his veins - Fins might have been more athleticly explosive, but his overall game and mental make-up is nothing clsoe to JJs.

But - bottom line - yes - a comparison to Lebron James is still ridiculous - 22 5 and 3.6 is a GREAT stat line - and it's a HUGE contribution - vitally important to the club - but it ain't 27 7 and 7 like Bron - he's up on him substantially in every statistic - I just don't see the comparison there.

 

[cepstrum]

But - bottom line - yes - a comparison to Lebron James is still ridiculous - 22 5 and 3.6 is a GREAT stat line - and it's a HUGE contribution - vitally important to the club - but it ain't 27 7 and 7 like Bron - he's up on him substantially in every statistic - I just don't see the comparison there.

I agree JJ isn't on Lebron's level yet, but the only statistic that tells me that is the assists. Lebron is the one and only option that cleveland has and therefore he gets more points and he plays a few more minutes a game accounting for the couple extra boards. His feel for the game is unparallel though. The guy is as good of a distributer as they come.

As far as freakish athletecism goes, Joe is one ripped dude. He seems like he SHOULD be athletic. He is much more of a finesse player than Bron or Kobe and maybe he doesn't like to use his athletecism. He prefers to shoot from the outside. I remember after the marbury trade he would be able to get to the basket at will almost and he has gone away from that now. He prefers to shoot from the outside now and has developed a deadly stroke.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If you mean he won’t average over 20 points because he’s not good enough I disagree. Now if you mean that he won’t average over 20 points because he has to share the ball with 4 other talented starters, than that we can agree.

So my question was do you really believe that if Joe were starting on the Rockets in place of T-Mac that he wouldn’t be averaging well over 20 points a game? If asked to be that goto guy or scoring machine, I think he could be. But that’s just not the role he’s been asked to play on THIS SUNS TEAM. And that’s as it should be.

i don't think he's efficient enough if asked to carry the load without the distraction of other good scorers around him. so no, i do not think, as you intimate, that you could plug him into mcgrady's role in houston and have the rockets remain at the same level of play.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

i said i don't think he'll average OVER 20pts. the other day i was telling cheese that i fully expect jj to avg 20pts next season.

So you mean, 20 points per game exactly? If you "fully expect" 20 but don't think he'll be over -- so, for instance, not 20.1 -- aren't you cutting it just a little thin?

oh geez. around 20. i'd be surprised to see him average 22 points a game at any point in his career. i think his ceiling is 20-21.