How did the diamondbacks make such a bad decision with Carlos Quentin?

[DiamondBacks5117]

How did we lose him for nothing? Will this move go down as one of the worst moves in diamondbacks history? Every one of Byrnes decisions seems to have been good until this one. Should we be bashing josh more than we have for this move? He did kind of make up for it with Dunn but you hate to lose Quentin! Or do you still think its to early to tell how this move will go down? Or do you want to wait and see what happens? Or already claim this move as the worst move in d backs history?

 

[CardinalsFan11]

IIRC we traded Quinton for the prospect that Oakland wanted in return for Dan Haren. So in reality it's not as one sided as you may think.

 

[Dback Jon]

First off, we didn't lose him for nothing - we got Chris Carter, who was a key piece of the Dan Haren deal.

To get Haren, we would have had to give up a top tier prospect.


Other than Zenny, many on the board had given up on CQ.

Hindsight is great, but things happen...

 

[DiamondBacks5117]

First off, we didn't lose him for nothing - we got Chris Carter, who was a key piece of the Dan Haren deal.

To get Haren, we would have had to give up a top tier prospect.


Other than Zenny, many on the board had given up on CQ.

Hindsight is great, but things happen...

I would rather have Haren then cq. isn't carter in the red sox organization?

 

[Dback Jon]

I would rather have Haren then cq. isn't carter in the red sox organization?

Chris Carter the IF

 

[DiamondBacks5117]

so is carter with Oakland now?

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

The Diamondbacks have recently had two Chris Carters, both mostly first basemen, which makes it confusing. The first Chris Carter was traded last year to Washington (who then traded him to Boston). The second Chris Carter was traded from the White Sox in exchange for Quentin. The Dbacks then sent him to Oakland in the Haren deal.

 

[DiamondBacks5117]

The Diamondbacks have recently had two Chris Carters, both mostly first basemen, which makes it confusing. The first Chris Carter was traded last year to Washington (who then traded him to Boston). The second Chris Carter was traded from the White Sox in exchange for Quentin. The Dbacks then sent him to Oakland in the Haren deal.

That makes sense thanks for clearing that up for me! do you no which minor leage affiliate he is with because i looked at oakland roster and couldnt find him or if he is still in oakland organization?

 

[Dback Jon]

That makes sense thanks for clearing that up for me! do you no which minor leage affiliate he is with because i looked at oakland roster and couldnt find him or if he is still in oakland organization?

He is at Class A Stockton Ports

http://www.stocktonports.com/team/roster/index.html?player_id=69

 

[DiamondBacks5117]

thanks!

 

[DiamondBacks5117]

I think we should wait and see how good carter turns out to be before we close the books on this deal even though haren helps us tremendously in are palyoff run this year. mayeb we should have just kept carter.

 

[DWKB]

First off, we didn't lose him for nothing - we got Chris Carter, who was a key piece of the Dan Haren deal.

To get Haren, we would have had to give up a top tier prospect.


Other than Zenny, many on the board had given up on CQ.

Hindsight is great, but things happen...

If you only hold the management of the DBacks to the standard of THIS message board's consensus then expect a lot of losing seasons.

The trade was, in total:

Carlos Gonzalez, Dana Eveland, Greg Smith, Aaron Cunningham, Brett Anderson and Chris Carter (Carlos Quentin) for Dan Haren and Connor Robertson.

 

[Dback Jon]

If you only hold the management of the DBacks to the standard of THIS message board's consensus then expect a lot of losing seasons.

The trade was, in total:

Carlos Gonzalez, Dana Eveland, Greg Smith, Aaron Cunningham, Brett Anderson and Chris Carter (Carlos Quentin) for Dan Haren and Connor Robertson.

With CQ and Haren the prime players, hence the poll question.

I think management (Byrnes, etc) are far brighter than this board.

 

[DWKB]

With CQ and Haren the prime players, hence the poll question.

I think management (Byrnes, etc) are far brighter than this board.

You could argue the prime players from an off-season perspective, but I still think there were other options with so many players in the picture. We didn't even get Haren for Quentin, and I can't imagine the only way to get Chris Carter was to trade Quentin away. Quentin was gone the moment Byrnes was signed long term.

I just think posing a poll this way writes off the loss of Quentin too conveniently.

 

[Dback Jon]

You could argue the prime players from an off-season perspective, but I still think there were other options with so many players in the picture. We didn't even get Haren for Quentin, and I can't imagine the only way to get Chris Carter was to trade Quentin away. Quentin was gone the moment Byrnes was signed long term.

I just think posing a poll this way writes off the loss of Quentin too conveniently.

There might have been other options, but that is unknown. And yes, the Byrnes signing made CQ expendable. Did the Dbacks management have any idea that CQ would explode like this? Nope.

The point is I am tired of the continued one-sided bashing of the Dbacks, without acknowledging the great trade they did make, which to me, was more important than the CQ trade.

 

[AZZenny]

Thanks, DWKB -- That's what struck me. It was by no means a straight across Haren for CQ deal. Had we WANTED to keep CQ I have no doubt at all we could have swung the Haren deal some other way -- there's rarely just one way to close a trade deal.

Bottom line, the REAL poll should be (as someone else hinted) who would you rather have, Eric Byrnes, or Carlos Quentin? Or you could stretch it and ask if you'd rather have CQ or Justin Upton, but the lynchpin in all of thise was not CQ, not Upton, and not Haren -- it was the totally idiotic and indefensible Eric Byrnes deal.
So much for smart management.

And Jon, they should have had some sense he'd turn out like this, since that's what they'd been anticipating, predicting, and what he'd been showing from his first year in the minors. If you want to say they're so smart, then at least acknowledge they probably DID have an idea what they were trading away.

I heard them interview Carlos on ESPN two nights ago and they prodded him to say something about how being traded by the DBacks gave him extra motivation. He declined, saying he was just grateful he got healthy and that they made a point to trade him someplace he had a chance to earn his way into the lineup.

 

[DWKB]

There might have been other options, but that is unknown. And yes, the Byrnes signing made CQ expendable. Did the Dbacks management have any idea that CQ would explode like this? Nope.

The point is I am tired of the continued one-sided bashing of the Dbacks, without acknowledging the great trade they did make, which to me, was more important than the CQ trade.

I understand how being a fan makes you not want to hear the bashing of trading CQ away, but that doesn't mean that it's right to try and rationalize the moves or to not acknowledge it was a horrible move that many (although not on this particular message board) foresaw before the current situation.

The fact is that CQ was only equal to Carter if you evaluated him on the injured season basis and the situation Byrnes was forced into when Moorad signed EB to the NTC extension. Those moves greatly devalued CQ last offseason and other teams knew it.

If the DBack management was so fooled as to not ever expect CQ to "explode like this" then their player evaluation skills need to be strongly revamped.

Josh Byrnes has made some good moves and some poor ones. I still think the move to get CY for Vasquez was solid, the move to get Hudson for Glaus was excellent. Doug Davis trade was really solid as well. Juan Cruz for Halsey. There are many. trading CQ for Chris Carter was not and never will be one of them.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

What Byrnes has done is establish a core of prospects that he doesn't want to give up in Drew, Young, Jackson, Upton and Scherzer. Those guys I would think are as untouchable as you can get IMO. Players who fall outside that category can be had for the right person - at least right now and the past 11/2 seasons.

Should Quentin have been in that category? Maybe but I understand the thinking. Quentin came on the scene like a All Star and I remember thinking we had the next Albert Pujols on our hands. But then teams adjusted and he didn't so when you have a surplus of outfielders and the other two are rated higher within your organization - it made sense to part with Quentin to finish the Haren deal.

To be honest I think this is the fans fault of all things. Management shuldn't have caved to the pressure to keep Byrnes based on one season of playing above his head. If anythign they should have kept O for what he brings rather then Byrnes.

On my last point though lets not make the same mistake with Brynes that we did with Quentin. These players don't play in a vacuum. So everyone who is writing off Byrnes now remember he will likely have a season more like 07 then 08 next year.

Thats just how baseball works. Everyone except the elite of the elite have bad seasons and players should be judged by the breadth of their work rather then one season in most cases. Thats the nature of a game where 1 for 3 every game gets you in the hall of fame.

 

[DWKB]

What Byrnes has done is establish a core of prospects that he doesn't want to give up in Drew, Young, Jackson, Upton and Scherzer. Those guys I would think are as untouchable as you can get IMO. Players who fall outside that category can be had for the right person - at least right now and the past 11/2 seasons.

But it was common knowledge that Conor Jackson was on the trading block this offseason. This is exactly how fan perception goes, when a young player finally gets to that next level he's untouchable like you say CJ is now, but it was 6 mos ago that he was trade bait because he hadn't done anything.

Should Quentin have been in that category? Maybe but I understand the thinking. Quentin came on the scene like a All Star and I remember thinking we had the next Albert Pujols on our hands. But then teams adjusted and he didn't so when you have a surplus of outfielders and the other two are rated higher within your organization - it made sense to part with Quentin to finish the Haren deal.

There is no mention of CQ's torn labrum in this paragraph. Did you know he was playing with one?

To be honest I think this is the fans fault of all things. Management shuldn't have caved to the pressure to keep Byrnes based on one season of playing above his head. If anythign they should have kept O for what he brings rather then Byrnes.

So when should management listen to fans as to not alienate them and when should they make moves counter to the fan base in order to make the team more competitive and successful? Seems the DBack management has trouble figuring that out and that is to their detriment.

On my last point though lets not make the same mistake with Brynes that we did with Quentin. These players don't play in a vacuum. So everyone who is writing off Byrnes now remember he will likely have a season more like 07 then 08 next year.

Eric Byrnes 2007 season is out of line from any of his career and a lot of his value that season was from base running and defense, not offense. It's a lot to expect a 33 yr old ballplayer coming off of a season ending leg injury to keep up the level of base running and OF defense that EB has in 2007. I'd say if you think it might happen then you're likely to be disappointed.

Thats just how baseball works. Everyone except the elite of the elite have bad seasons and players should be judged by the breadth of their work rather then one season in most cases. Thats the nature of a game where 1 for 3 every game gets you in the hall of fame.

As you say, breath of work, EB's is .263/.325/.446 and he's 33 going into next season.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

Wait..

Conor needs more power.. Arizona can't win with a non-power hitting 1B with mediocre defense..

Trade him at all costs.. Trade that stiff Quentin too, he's a waste.. Gotta keep Eric Byrnes, regardless of the price.

If I had a penny for every time I read that tripe on here last year, not only would the Diamondbacks be able to keep Dunn and Hudson while paying Webb what he's worth, I'd be owning them and running a Yankee-esque payroll.

Also, in regards to the Chris Carter Arizona got for Quentin then spun as a key to the deal for Haren, I always refer to him by his first name Vernon to save me confusion of the other Chris Carter who's now in Boston.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

But it was common knowledge that Conor Jackson was on the trading block this offseason. This is exactly how fan perception goes, when a young player finally gets to that next level he's untouchable like you say CJ is now, but it was 6 mos ago that he was trade bait because he hadn't done anything.

I believe this to be those players listed as the core guys (for now) but your right in that it fluctuates from month to month. Baseball executives have the same problem as they get anstey and start tearingplayers apart. I guess my point is that Quentin was in one of those down turns and he was traded because of it.



There is no mention of CQ's torn labrum in this paragraph. Did you know he was playing with one?

I did. But my feeling is management had made their decision the year prior when he scuffled the last part of that season. If they really would have bought in he would have been given another year to show that the labrum was something he could come back from.

So when should management listen to fans as to not alienate them and when should they make moves counter to the fan base in order to make the team more competitive and successful? Seems the DBack management has trouble figuring that out and that is to their detriment.

They should listen to fans about beer prices and fan friendlieness. Otherwise I like my team to be of a business mindset and do what it takes to get better. They sure as hell shouldnt' make personnel decisions because of it.



Eric Byrnes 2007 season is out of line from any of his career and a lot of his value that season was from base running and defense, not offense. It's a lot to expect a 33 yr old ballplayer coming off of a season ending leg injury to keep up the level of base running and OF defense that EB has in 2007. I'd say if you think it might happen then you're likely to be disappointed.

Brynes is up and down - one good year one bad year - through most of his career. Whens hes good he energize a team and fan base. When hes not he just plain sucks. This should have been taken into account. But I think he will be an everyday starter and hit about .280 and provide the tenacity they wanted next year. Law of averages


As you say, breath of work, EB's is .263/.325/.446 and he's 33 going into next season.

Like I said when hes bad hes really bad. I certainly expect him to be better next year and a catalyst. But hes no all star and he shouldnt have been paid like one.

I think we are essentially saing the same thing. Trading Quentin was a bad idea - especially at the cost of giving Byrnes an outfield spot.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Trading CQ was idiotic, no mistake about it. The guy's the MVP of the American League for heaven's sake and all we got was a Class A 1B with decent upside.

It's prettty simple just as we should not have rewarded Byrnes for an above average year we should not have cast aside Quentin for one subpar year. Someone mentioned body of work, well, Quentin was an elite prospect for this organization and deserved to be treated as such especially after he performed well in 2006 in his rookie campaign. We let Stephen Drew work through his struggles in 2007, same with Chris Young and Justin Upton this year. My guess is if those guys had some fake hustling fan favorite at their position they would've been shipped off as well. Re-signing Eric Byrnes screams of ownership intervention, it goes against everything Josh Byrnes has done in his Diamondback tenure and during his time with the Tribe and BoSox.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Trading CQ was idiotic, no mistake about it. The guy's the MVP of the American League for heaven's sake and all we got was a Class A 1B with decent upside.

It's prettty simple just as we should not have rewarded Byrnes for an above average year we should not have cast aside Quentin for one subpar year. Someone mentioned body of work, well, Quentin was an elite prospect for this organization and deserved to be treated as such especially after he performed well in 2006 in his rookie campaign. We let Stephen Drew work through his struggles in 2007, same with Chris Young and Justin Upton this year. My guess is if those guys had some fake hustling fan favorite at their position they would've been shipped off as well. Re-signing Eric Byrnes screams of ownership intervention, it goes against everything Josh Byrnes has done in his Diamondback tenure and during his time with the Tribe and BoSox.

Agree 100%

 

[JS22]

Trading CQ was idiotic, no mistake about it. The guy's the MVP of the American League for heaven's sake and all we got was a Class A 1B with decent upside.

It's prettty simple just as we should not have rewarded Byrnes for an above average year we should not have cast aside Quentin for one subpar year. Someone mentioned body of work, well, Quentin was an elite prospect for this organization and deserved to be treated as such especially after he performed well in 2006 in his rookie campaign. We let Stephen Drew work through his struggles in 2007, same with Chris Young and Justin Upton this year. My guess is if those guys had some fake hustling fan favorite at their position they would've been shipped off as well. Re-signing Eric Byrnes screams of ownership intervention, it goes against everything Josh Byrnes has done in his Diamondback tenure and during his time with the Tribe and BoSox.

I agree. This move stinks of management trying to sell tickets. Imagine the tickets they'd be selling with a legit MVP candidate batting cleanup every night. (Well, maybe not. We have awful fans here in AZ. Look at the reception they gave to Dunn last night.)

It's amazing the turn-around Quentin has done. Browsing White Sox forums just kills me.

 

[AZZenny]

I recall at the time it was Moorad who called Eric Byrnes into his office after Josh Byrnes had wrangled interminably with the agent over cost and duration. Moorad SAID that he asked Eric Byrnes, 'What will it take to get this done?' and when he walked out, EB had his deal.

So there you have it. Stupid owner tricks. And I agree that if some of our other young guys had equal fan-fave competition for a spot they might have faced a trade -- except that we paid so damn much for Drew and Upton, and CQ was so darn cheap, that they would have been much harder to trade, and they have perceived/prepaid value beyond anything they've yet proven. Now CY is also in that same position.