how does this team match up with the 93 team?

[scotsman13]

i was thinking about this the other day. and i believe this team will match up with 93 finals team very well if not this year then in a year or two very well maybe even better.

point guard
kj vs. marbury

this is very close but i give the edge to kj. A vs. A-

back up point.
knight vs barbosa
is there even a question about this one. barbosa takes it away without a question. B- vs. b+ when you add knight vs. fj i still give the advanage to the 03 team.

shooting guard
marjele vs. jj
(yea i know i spelled majele name wrong) in this match up i give the edge to the 93 team. if jj can play well this year i would change it. A- vs B.

backup shooting guard
ainge vs hardaway
i give this advanage to ainge but it is close. B+ vs B

small forward
dumas vs marion
wow this is the area where the new suns walk away from the 93 team without and trouble. if marion had been on that team they would have won it all in chicago. B vs A.

back up small forward
ceballos vs. zarko
ced is a great scorer from inside (later he would develop an outside shot) but he was a poor defender and a good rebounder. over all i would rank this as almost a even match at this point with a little edge going to ced because of experance. B vs B-

power forward
charles barkley vs amare
charles is one of the best all time power forwards the game as ever seen. i personally rank him above malone. he rebounds like a madman. can score in any number of way and was a great clutch player. amare has the body that charles didnt have, and a much better work ethic . in time amare may get close to him but right now he has a lot of room to grow. A+ vs B+

back power forward
chambers vs googs
wow both of these guys have seen better days. and both should have been put out to pasture before the season started.
D vs D yea i know this is hard but i will never forgive chambers for missing all of those open dunks during the 93 playoffs against seattle and googs for his salery.

center
mark west vs. jake voskhul
man this one is hard. i respect west work but the refs never did. jake works hard but he may not have the best body to be a true center with what we are facing right now. jake wins because he isnt as bad at being called for the fouls as west. C vs C+

back up center
oliver miller vs scott williams
talent wise the big o had everything on williams but the areas that big o lacked are the areas that williams is the strongest in. williams has heart oliver just has heart problems from eating to much. B- vs. C+


so what do you all think?

C vs C+

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh boy, this is a tough one. I think 93 team was better.

Barkley was the best PF, and one of the best players in the league.

KJ was one of the best point guards, Majerle was an outstanding defender and three point shooter.

Ainge was one of the best back up guards in the NBA.

Ced was a great scorer, and Mark West and Big O were a head and shoulders above Suns' centers this years.

Main difference is that 93 team was a veteran team, whereas this year's Suns are still a very very young team.

Right now, 93 team is better. In four years, that could change.

By tthe way, can you guys imagine 93 Barkley on PF, and 2003 Stoudemire on C? It's fun to think about.

 

[elindholm]

Chambers in '92-'93 was a million times better than Gugliotta is now. He might have missed some easy shots here and there, but he was a very valuable part of that team. Gugliotta could disappear tomorrow and no one would miss him.

And Miller had his problems, but he was still much better than Voskuhl.

Aside from center (which is where Chambers saw a lot of his time in '02-'03), the teams are fairly equal. If you want, you can call Stoudemire this year's center, but then the comparison of PFs between the two teams is no longer remotely close.

Backup point guard was also better on the '92-'93 team. Frank Johnson was quite a good shooter if left open and he usually made good decisions with the ball. We didn't all call him "Fourth Quarter Frank" for nothing. So far, Barbosa is nowhere near that level.

Was Negele Knight hurt for those playoffs? I don't remember him playing at all.

 

[slinslin]

Oliver Miller was actually pretty fast running down the court.

Based on KJs performance in the 93 finals I might call it overall even against Marbury.

Joe Johnson could be better than Dan Majerle if he keeps up the preseason play.

But overall the 93 team had much more depth and better big men. Amare could reach Barkley status in a few years but not yet and West/Miller is better than anything we have right now.

In 2 years this team should be better if kept together.

 

[scotsman13]

chamber was in no way close to what googs is now. anyone that misses 4 open dunks in a western conferance final playoff game should be shoot on sight. that is what chamber did that year. he added nothing in the playoffs against chicago. he averaged 12 points a game that year and hurt the team more then helped in the playoffs.

also i wouldnt call amare a center he is a power forward and that is his best spot at this time. if over the next couple years he grows about another 1 to 1 1/2 inchs and gains 15 lbs. then amare could be a starting center.

knight was on the play off roster. he saw time in the lakers and spurs games but ainge and fj took the back up time that would have gone to him after that.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Originally posted by scotsman13
chamber was in no way close to what googs is now. anyone that misses 4 open dunks in a western conferance final playoff game should be shoot on sight. that is what chamber did that year. he added nothing in the playoffs against chicago. he averaged 12 points a game that year and hurt the team more then helped in the playoffs.

You have got to be joking right? Chambers might have missed some open dunks as well as some open shots, but that doesn't take anything away from him. He was a threat from 16 feet which helped to open up the floor, as well he could still take it to the hole. I'm not sure if anyone right now needs to even guard Googs. Googs was a fantastic player before the injury, but as it stands now, he still needs to prove himself, which Chambers has already done.
If you are gonna cry about someones performace in the 93 playoffs, then I would probably start with Ainges. The only defense that I saw from Ainge consisted of poking at jump-shooters crocthes. Not to mention when he dropped off his man and left a wide open Paxton in the corner.

 

[scotsman13]

ainges dropping off his man (paxton) to try to stop a drive to the basket by michael jordan. so what you are telling me is that you would like to see michael given a clear path to the basket which lets say that it has 80%+ chance of going in vs. paxton having a 3 point shoot that in his hands may have at the most 50% chance of going in if he is wide open. rule 1 in basketball defense is stop the ball, he did that. he hoped that someone would pick his man. no one else did and that is what cost the team the win. look at majerle who was the last person down the court and then tell me how good of a defender he was that year?

chambers and majerle were both very good players but both of them were more bark then bite during the 93 playoffs. the only value that majerle had at that time wasnt as a defender it was a person to spead the floor. after the 93 playoffs majerle was a waste of playing time. sure he was a good guy in the lockroom but so is scott williams does that make him worthly of 30+ minutes a game?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Not a bad evaluation. I might differ a little in some areas.

Marbury is underrated. He is tougher than KJ. He is healthier than KJ. He is a better clutch player than KJ.

I know this is anathema for Suns diehards. I like KJ better, but if we put Marbury on that team instead of KJ, we win the title.

Marbury has something, dare I say, Jordan-esque about him when the ball is in his hands and the game is on the line. He is fearless. KJ would often get the "deer in the headlights" look in that situation. I remember it so distinctly during the Portland series the year before Barkley came.

West and Miller are tons better than any center we have now. West was an underrated player who was a real force defensively.

Right now, JJ can't hold a candle to Majerle. Dan showed up every night and never had a bad game. He might have a bad shooting game, but his intensity and effort made him so valuable in so many ways. How many times did we hear in the closing seconds, "Majerle steals the inbounds pass, Suns win." or "Majerle rebounds, Suns win." JJ just doesnt have that kind of presence.

Ainge had so much more of a killer instinct than Penny.

Chambers was much more of a player than Googs. Googs might come back some, but Chambers had away of having an impact even when he was slow and stiff.

Ced way over Zarko, primarily because Zarko is a rookie and hasn't played in a real game yet. As they say in Missouri, "Show me." Ced is one of the league's all time best garbage players. Had he not been injured in the finals, we probably would have won.

 

[cheng]

Originally posted by scotsman13
ainges dropping off his man (paxton) to try to stop a drive to the basket by michael jordan. so what you are telling me is that you would like to see michael given a clear path to the basket which lets say that it has 80%+ chance of going in vs. paxton having a 3 point shoot that in his hands may have at the most 50% chance of going in if he is wide open. rule 1 in basketball defense is stop the ball, he did that. he hoped that someone would pick his man. no one else did and that is what cost the team the win. look at majerle who was the last person down the court and then tell me how good of a defender he was that year?

chambers and majerle were both very good players but both of them were more bark then bite during the 93 playoffs. the only value that majerle had at that time wasnt as a defender it was a person to spead the floor. after the 93 playoffs majerle was a waste of playing time. sure he was a good guy in the lockroom but so is scott williams does that make him worthly of 30+ minutes a game?

Wow, Majerle was a waste after 93 finals?

He started the all star game along with Barkley the year after. Then he was traded to Cavs where he helped them make the playoffs. He signed with Miami and started having back problems, but Pat Riley still played him around 30 Mins for a few seasons mainly because he was still a great defender. I still haven't seen someone else who would have defended Allan Houston better
than he did.

 

[scotsman13]

well the reason that ced would have helped us win against chicago is that he could keep up with jordan, something that majerle couldnt do.

i will say this again that chambers was a very good player before the 92-93 season. once barkley came he was done. any 6'10" player who misses 4 lay ups or dunks in a game should be shot and isnt worth the playing time that they get. and that is what chambers did in game 7 against seattle.

 

[Espo]

The '93 team is hands down better. I think that they were a veteran team that had a true "superstar". The '93 team had barkely they had KJ they had Chambers and they had Marjele. Those four were all allstars at one point in their careers. They also had great roleplayers like ainge cebollos and dumas. Plus they had a young center in The big O at a time when there wasn't any true dominant centers. That team was built to compete in the league they found themselves in. The fact that the suns have no center in an age where the center possition is key in the west proves that this team in comparision to the league they plan in is not better then the '93 team. In a few years when these guys all mature and grow together then we can talk about them being one of the great suns teams.

 

[Chaplin]

Call me crazy, but after a few games, didn't we figure out that Majerle shouldn't have been guarding Jordan? I seem to remember that after Game 2, we figured out that we can at least give him more problems if KJ guarded him. I remember after that horrific game 2 in Phoenix he suddenly turned it on and was nearly unstoppable. As for Jordan, he still scored his points, but he didn't appear as invincible when KJ guarded him.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Call me crazy, but after a few games, didn't we figure out that Majerle shouldn't have been guarding Jordan? I seem to remember that after Game 2, we figured out that we can at least give him more problems if KJ guarded him. I remember after that horrific game 2 in Phoenix he suddenly turned it on and was nearly unstoppable. As for Jordan, he still scored his points, but he didn't appear as invincible when KJ guarded him.

I believe you are right. Majerle ended up guarding Pippen alot.

 

[scotsman13]

yea kj did the best job defending jordan in the playoffs. game 3 he made jordan really work for all of his points.

majerle back problems go back to before the the 93 season. he had to have surgery to fix it and it slowed him down a great deal. he was no longer the "thunder" but an outside shooter who's got his name defending by hand checking. the nba band hand checking the next season. on the miami team majerle was able to get away with it because the whole heat team would hand check and commit fouls on every play. so to keep the follow of the game going the refs would let a lot get away from them.

kj should go to the hall of fame as being one of only 3 players in nba history to average 20 and 10 for 3 seasons. the others are the true "big o" and thomas.

i know that the 93 team was better then the 04 suns. but the 04 suns are shaping up very well. and i think that the 04 suns will come to equal out with the 93 suns in short order.

 

[Billythekid]

Jordan avg'ed 40+ points that series... So, no one gaured him.

Talk about f&^k ups. Majerle air balling that base line jumper. And who the hell was gaurding MJ as he went coast to coast in about 3 seconds down the stretch.

This team doesnt compare to the 93 team IMO. That team was loaded with experienced ballers. And played like machine, with everyone knowing their role... LOADED! I mean Tim Kempton! Even he was better then Googs is now!

 

[scotsman13]

hehe the reason for jordan going coast to coast on that play cant be seen on tv or any of the replays because people were watching jordan. majerle had the assignment on jorda at that time and went after him but pippen grabbed him and held him. in the backcourt. that is why he was the last man down and why ainge had to leave paxton to stop jordans drive to the hoop. it is funny i have heard this from to differant sources. the first one was a season ticket holder whos tickets are on role almost at center court. the other was from rob heart who was in charge of the suns video center. both of them told me the samething when asked about this play. i guess i should believe them.

 

[elindholm]

Did your witnesses explain that Jordan's uncontested layup and Paxson's three-pointer came on different possessions?

 

[Forrestham]

A fair comparison will come about 2-3 years from now. The 92-93 team hit its peak. Was a great team. Nobody could guard Jordan back then. The only advantage this team has is Marion over Dumas/Ced. Remember how good Dumas was for a short time. Reminded me of a young David Thompson.

I would love to see Amare and Barkley face each other in a simulated game

 

[sly fly]

Not even a fair comparison. But, the 1993 team would destroy this current team.

The simple reason is Charles Barkley. Barkley was a one-man wrecking crew, and even Amare would have been no match.

If I could play KJ for the first 46 minutes, and give the ball the Marbs for the final 2... life would be good.

Majerle hit more big shots towards the end of that year, then I've EVER seen from any player.

Ainge kept things under control, and pissed the opposition off. (Just ask Mario Elie's face. )

Richard Dumas was/is one of the biggest enigma's the NBA has ever seen. He tore apart Scottie Pippen IN CHICAGO. Too bad he couldn't put down the crack pipe. Last time I saw him, he was sitting in a dive bar, pouring back draft beer and cigs... while watching PHX play the Lakers on a big-screen. I found that sad and ironic.

This current team hasn't proved ANYTHING. Until they advance to at least the Western Conference Finals, this current group shouldn't be put in the Top 5 of Suns teams.

 

[scotsman13]

elindholm the play that lead to paxtons 3 pointer was a rebound by jordan with him take to the hoop. ainge move to stop jordan and he passed it out to paxton. who hit the open of 3 pointer. it was on this play that majerle was held by pippen in the backcourt to stop him from going after jordan.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by scotsman13
elindholm the play that lead to paxtons 3 pointer was a rebound by jordan with him take to the hoop. ainge move to stop jordan and he passed it out to paxton. who hit the open of 3 pointer. it was on this play that majerle was held by pippen in the backcourt to stop him from going after jordan.

Man are you wrong about SO much in this thread. After Jordan went coast to coast when we were up four with 50 seconds left, we came down on the other end - played hot potatoe with the ball - Frank Johnson passed up an open 15 footer from the right of the key to Majerle who then air-balled an 8 footer setting off a shot-clock violation.

Then on the next possession - the ball was thrown to Pippen - Barkley tried to play hero and went for the steal - leaving the lane wide open - someone came up on Pippen leaving Horace Grant all alone five feet from the basket which is where Danny Ainge rotated down to foul Grant and stop the layup - but when Grant was to much of a ***** to shoot a layup he passed out to Paxson who nailed the three.

Come on man - you're a suns fan and don't even remember the pain of those final moments. Although it doesn't suprise me - to say that Chambers - who started in Game 7 against Seattle and had 18 points I believe - and Majerle who single-handedly won Game 5 of the Seattle Series, made the huge shot against the Lakes in Game 5 to force OT and rained in three all over the place against the Bulls - not to mention his historic threes in game three of the finals - makes me question if you even watched that series at all. Granted Thunder Dan became Blunder Dan when we started facing Houston in back to back years - he was still the second best player in the playoffs the year we went to the Finals. In fact if Barkely wouldn't have missed a free throw or a little up and under move with about two minutes to go in Game 6 it goes to seven - me and my father are there and I have a truly great story to tell my kids about the time I saw the Suns conquer Michael Jordan.

Don't talk Suns ball and diss our boys when you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Billythekid]

Originally posted by cheesebeef


Come on man - you're a suns fan and don't even remember the pain of those final moments. Although it doesn't suprise me - to say that Chambers - who started in Game 7 against Seattle and had 18 points I believe - and Majerle who single-handedly won Game 5 of the Seattle Series, made the huge shot against the Lakes in Game 5 to force OT and rained in three all over the place against the Bulls - not to mention his historic threes in game three of the finals - makes me question if you even watched that series at all.
Don't talk Suns ball and diss our boys when you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Barkley did a few things in game 5 against Seattle if I do remember correctly. It was from the constant double teams towards Barkley that Majerle was able to rain down on Seattle. CB was the unstoppable force in game 5. Make no mistake about it. Without Barkley on fire like he was, Majerle wouldn't have had that sort of game... but yes... Majerle was on fire that night.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Billythekid
Barkley did a few things in game 5 against Seattle if I do remember correctly. It was from the constant double teams towards Barkley that Majerle was able to rain down on Seattle. CB was the unstoppable force in game 5. Make no mistake about it. Without Barkley on fire like he was, Majerle wouldn't have had that sort of game... but yes... Majerle was on fire that night.

you're right - Bark and Majerle were unstoppable that night - do you remember in Game 7 Charles after every single bucket just talking ridiculous amounts of trash to George Karl - absolutely classic. I used to love Crazy Dan Majerle range that run - he was canning shots from like 5 feet behind the three point line.

 

[Billythekid]

Classic Barkley Tash talking was when we played the Bulls in the reg season in 96. CB was just on FIRE! and was talking smack to Phil Jackson and Rodman all game long. He'd hit a shot and let Phil know all about it. Best game of the season by far. And he gave Rodman a few cheap shot elbows too.

 

[Billythekid]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
you're right - Bark and Majerle were unstoppable that night - do you remember in Game 7 Charles after every single bucket just talking ridiculous amounts of trash to George Karl - absolutely classic. I used to love Crazy Dan Majerle range that run - he was canning shots from like 5 feet behind the three point line.

Dick Enberg and Magic Johnson were going off there heads commentating game 5.

"My O My O My O My O My O... MY! Dan Majerle!"

Gotta love it!