How Great is the 2017 draft class?

[Russ Smith]

Too many 6'3 or shorter scorers that don't pan out. I think he's potentially Harold miner or tony delk.

agreed long arms great athlete but will he be tall enough to play the 2 in the NBA.

Really good player though, he's an eye popping athlete.

 

[GatorAZ]

NC State upsets #21 Virginia Tech and Dennis Smith finishes with 27/11/11. He's going 1-2.

 

[hcsilla]

Too many 6'3 or shorter scorers that don't pan out. I think he's potentially Harold miner or tony delk.

I don't think that Monk has anything common with Miner, he is taller than Delk, and projects simply a much better player.

 

[slinslin]

What is scary about Lonzo Ball in my opinion is

a) lack of evidence how he would do in NBA halfcourt settings
b) not sure how tight is handle is because most of what I see from him at UCLA is pushing the ball and getting easy assists, scoring of 3 pointers and backdoor plays
c) His dad seems like trouble/drama waiting to happen if things ever go south, google it, watch it on youtube. He is that super involved dad, created a basketball gear brand for his kids and named his sons Lonzo, LiAngelo, Lamelo..

 

[slinslin]

NC State upsets #21 Virginia Tech and Dennis Smith finishes with 27/11/11. He's going 1-2.

#2

 

[Russ Smith]

NC State upsets #21 Virginia Tech and Dennis Smith finishes with 27/11/11. He's going 1-2.

He's playing awfully well right now. Looks like the knee is healed

 

[Russ Smith]

What is scary about Lonzo Ball in my opinion is

a) lack of evidence how he would do in NBA halfcourt settings
b) not sure how tight is handle is because most of what I see from him at UCLA is pushing the ball and getting easy assists, scoring of 3 pointers and backdoor plays
c) His dad seems like trouble/drama waiting to happen if things ever go south, google it, watch it on youtube. He is that super involved dad, created a basketball gear brand for his kids and named his sons Lonzo, LiAngelo, Lamelo..

a) UCLA runs more halfcourt offense than UW does, by a mile. UW has virtually no halfcourt sets that's why Romar is such a terrible coach he just rolls the ball out. UCLA doesn't run a lot of pick and roll, but they run that weave that's become so popular. Watch their game agaist Michigan, the entire game was played in the halfcourt, Ball was playing sick(had been sick all week was coughing the whole game) and they put up 102 points and Ball had 19. They actually moved him off the ball quite a bit in that game to let him rest because he wasn't 100%. Yes UCLA wants to run but most teams they play drop 3 or 4 guys back to cut off the break, they're a very efficient half court offense so far.

b) Agree he's a bit TO prone at times in traffic, still getting used to better athletes in college. UW plays just as fast as UCLA does how come Fultz isn't getting "easy assists"?

c) his dad is only an issue in college if things go poorly. For example everyone knows Gelo is not a great prospect, he's a 6'5" PF, he probably isn't going to play much at UCLA but the dad says he's a 1 and done. Potential issue there but so what, Lonzo has UCLA at 14-1 so it was worth it to take Gelo. And if the kid is what everyone thinks he is, eventually even the dad will see he's just not that good. Melo is starting to look like a very good high major prospect, had a growth spurt, excellent passer and scorer, needs to get stronger and more athletic but it looks like he'll end up close in size to Lonzo and he already has the midrange floater that Lonzo lacks. The dad is a very boisterous guy but NBA teams don't worry about that. Kevin Love's dad was a big issue in college, when was the last time you heard anybody say his dad has impacted Kevin in the NBA?

They're both great players, they impact the game differently. Watched Fultz again last night, the game was close when he was making shots, he hit a dry spell and Oregon pulled way ahead and never looked back. He doesn't make his teammates better so when he's not scoring, UW isn't very good.

 

[slinslin]

When you watch Fultz he lines up highlight plays one after another where he weaves through traffic and makes things happens with creative moves and great vision, you don't see that with Ball imo.

UW is not very good because they do not have good talent around Fultz, they have nobody as good as Alford or Leaf etc.

 

[Russ Smith]

When you watch Fultz he lines up highlight plays one after another where he weaves through traffic and makes things happens with creative moves and great vision, you don't see that with Ball imo.

UW is not very good because they do not have good talent around Fultz, they have nobody as good as Alford or Leaf etc.

Right he had a drive last night with a spectacular finish and then just after it he got a block on Dorsey from behind and stared him down and got warned by the refs. not used to seeing that emotion from him.

he's a better scorer than Lonzo for sure, but at the next level I'm not sure if he's a PG or not, if he is it's a scoring PG in an offense built on screen and roll. Ball may struggle to defend PG but I'm not even sure of that his defense is getting better every game now.

UW has very good athletes, they're not a great shooting team but part of that is the shots they take and part of that is they don't pass the ball as well as UCLA does and part of that is the difference in how their PG plays as opposed to how Ball does. Again, making teammates better is important it's something Ball clearly does better than Fultz.

If I were drafting I'd probably take Fultz, he's less risky because he's a very good scorer so even if he doesn't pan out at the 1 he can play the 2 probably. But I think NBA teams are starting to see all the things Lonzo does, UCLA has dozens of scouts at every game, it's the land of agents and scouts and the word on Lonzo has gone from very skeptical to they love him. He's much more athletic than people gave him credit for. Both great players, but the issue Fultz is going to have is exactly what people said about Simmons, how can you have the best player in the country and lose so many games.

 

[slinslin]

Washington was a bad team last year and lost Marquese Chriss and Dejounte Murray, it is obvious why they are losing many games.

Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are the two best big man in the league, look at their career records.

Karl Anthony Towns next in line.

 

[Russ Smith]

Washington was a bad team last year and lost Marquese Chriss and Dejounte Murray, it is obvious why they are losing many games.

They weren't a bad team though that's my point. At this point last year they were 10-4 and were 2-0 in conference, they started Pac 12 at 5-1. They finished badly 18-14 9-9 in conference but they weren't bad they just didn't improve as much as everyone expected a young team would, because Romar is a bad coach and because they had too many guys with agendas, Murray and Chriss were at odds with Andrews, he was the senior star, they were the 2 freshmen trying to show the NBA how good they were and chemistry on the team fell apart.

They actually lost their 3 best scorers, Andrews, Murray and Chriss. But they spent all offseason talking about how good they looked. When they went on a foreign tour that's all you heard, UW looks great, vastly underrated, Fultz is the best player in the conference UW is going to be a major surprise this season. After their Australian tour they were a hot pick to be a top 4 Pac 12 team, they were picked 6th by the media ahead of USC and Utah. They already lost to WSU a team with less talent than they have. They should be OSU to get their first win but right now they look like a team that could easily struggle to finish above .500 and there's no way that should be the case with a talent like Fultz.

But I'm not so much blaming him just pointing out he should not have gone to UW, Romar is a horrible coach he'd have been better off somewhere else. They need to turn it around very quickly or they're going to miss the tournament with a probable #1 overall pick on the roster.

 

[DWKB]

UW loses a lot of games because Romar is a horrible, horrible coach. He gets recruits, but doesn't know what to do with them. Porter will be the same next year.

 

[Russ Smith]

UW loses a lot of games because Romar is a horrible, horrible coach. He gets recruits, but doesn't know what to do with them. Porter will be the same next year.

Yep I think in a sense you have to factor that into judging the players though too. Fultz will have 30 + games of playing against college level talent but that's really all he's getting from his 8 months at UW. Nobody is teaching him anything.

Ball is improving all the time, as a defender, as a scorer etc. I watch Kansas and the improvement in Josh Jackson's game from early to now is obvious. You can see signs of kids that are being coached and playing in a system and importantly playing in games where what you do matters.

Fultz isn't really doing that, UW is very unlikely to make the tournament, he's carrying the load but he's playing in games with very little pressure because if they lose, so what they weren't going anywhere anyways.

I don't know how Romar keeps his job, they'll underachieve again next year with Porter, he'll go pro and presumably eventually they'll get tired of it and hire a better coach. He's doing a disservice to Fultz though he's not coaching him he's going to go into the NBA the same player he'll get virtually nothing out of his season at UW.

 

[DWKB]

Yep I think in a sense you have to factor that into judging the players though too. Fultz will have 30 + games of playing against college level talent but that's really all he's getting from his 8 months at UW. Nobody is teaching him anything.

Ball is improving all the time, as a defender, as a scorer etc. I watch Kansas and the improvement in Josh Jackson's game from early to now is obvious. You can see signs of kids that are being coached and playing in a system and importantly playing in games where what you do matters.

Fultz isn't really doing that, UW is very unlikely to make the tournament, he's carrying the load but he's playing in games with very little pressure because if they lose, so what they weren't going anywhere anyways.

I don't know how Romar keeps his job, they'll underachieve again next year with Porter, he'll go pro and presumably eventually they'll get tired of it and hire a better coach. He's doing a disservice to Fultz though he's not coaching him he's going to go into the NBA the same player he'll get virtually nothing out of his season at UW.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I fully agree.

I'm a college basketball fan first, so it's more important for me that my team wins than that any players succeed at the next level. Really, that is a recruiting tool at best. The Ringer had an article on Jackson and his draft stock, which is greatly hindered by his inconsistent shooting believed to be because of the hitch in his shot. Self said flat out that he has no interest or intention of trying to fix Jackson's shot, especially in the one year he has him. He's teaching him a system, but it won't be the system he uses in the NBA nor will it even likely be the position he plays in the NBA.

I'm guessing NBA scouts care more about if they think they can fix Jackson's shot than if he can learn Self's system. I bet they are watching his abilities within the system more so than his success with the system. The same goes for recruiting HS players for NCAA. A bad HS team does not keep a top athlete from signing with a high profile school and succeeding.

 

[Russ Smith]

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I fully agree.

I'm a college basketball fan first, so it's more important for me that my team wins than that any players succeed at the next level. Really, that is a recruiting tool at best. The Ringer had an article on Jackson and his draft stock, which is greatly hindered by his inconsistent shooting believed to be because of the hitch in his shot. Self said flat out that he has no interest or intention of trying to fix Jackson's shot, especially in the one year he has him. He's teaching him a system, but it won't be the system he uses in the NBA nor will it even likely be the position he plays in the NBA.

I'm guessing NBA scouts care more about if they think they can fix Jackson's shot than if he can learn Self's system. I bet they are watching his abilities within the system more so than his success with the system. The same goes for recruiting HS players for NCAA. A bad HS team does not keep a top athlete from signing with a high profile school and succeeding.

What I mean is that Ball and Jackson are showing NBA scouts they can be coached, they accept coaching, they can play within a system. Jackson has a hitch in his shot yes but everyone knew that, but he's showing his total game he's already a very good defender, he rebounds, he passes, and if you watch he's getting better all the time. That's because Kansas runs an actual offense with sets. It's why everyone negative recruits against Self saying highly rated players go there and don't play that much(oubre for example). It's largely because until they learn the system, they're not very good you can't just wing it at Kansas. You wind up a better player, your stats might not be as good but you learn how to play the game. Ball is in a completely different system but UCLA is still asking him to do all sorts of things that he didn't have to do in HS.

Fultz isn't really in a system the only system they run is here's the ball we'll give you a screen and you go. That's not his fault, but if you're scouting him you have to ask what if we want him to do other things can he do them, is he coachable. He probably is but you don't know because he's in a system that just rolls the ball out.

It doesn't mean he won't be a great pro, he may well be, but his year at UW is largely wasted he's not gaining anything.

All of these kids would have gone to the NBA if they could have but I'd argue Jackson, Ball, etc are going to be better players when they get to the NBA than they would have been right out of HS, I'm not sure that's true of Fultz because Romar is such a bad coach.

 

[Ronin]

DeMarcus Cousins just gave me what may be best comparison for UK's Malik Monk: J.R. Smith. Both high-level athletes & are streaky perimeter shooters.
Jeff Goodman, ESPN Insider
http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0609116537667720811-4

 

[hcsilla]

DeMarcus Cousins just gave me what may be best comparison for UK's Malik Monk: J.R. Smith. Both high-level athletes & are streaky perimeter shooters.
Jeff Goodman, ESPN Insider
http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0609116537667720811-4

Monk is not a streaky shooter, he is a deadly one. He has good form on his J and a superquick trigger.

 

[hcsilla]

he's a better scorer than Lonzo for sure, but at the next level I'm not sure if he's a PG or not, if he is it's a scoring PG in an offense built on screen and roll. Ball may struggle to defend PG but I'm not even sure of that his defense is getting better every game now.

If I were drafting I'd probably take Fultz, he's less risky because he's a very good scorer so even if he doesn't pan out at the 1 he can play the 2 probably.

As you also pointed out in the 2nd part of your past, it doesn't really matter if you consider Fultz a PG or a SG. He is simply a lead guard ala Harden.

 

[DWKB]

Monk is not a streaky shooter, he is a deadly one. He has good form on his J and a superquick trigger.

1-9 from 3pt vs Louisville.
1-5 vs Valpo
3-10 vs ASU

 

[GatorAZ]

You can make the argument that anyone is a streaker shooter by pointing out a few bad games. 49/113 (43%) is a large enough sample to determine whether a guy is consistent or not.

The best Monk comparison might be Hibachi although I don't think he'll ever be the complete offensive player Arenas was.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm back to thinking we should take Ball no matter what if we have the chance.

 

[GatorAZ]

Lonzo, Monk and Tatum are the guys that will be in our area if the standings project to where they're now IMO. Fultz, Smith and Jackson seem like the elite guys right now.

Boston is the favorite to land the #1 as Brooklyn has the worst record by 2.5 games.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I want ball. Trade Bledsoe as key piece in blockbuster multiplayer Barkley like trade.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I want ball. Trade Bledsoe as key piece in blockbuster multiplayer Barkley like trade.

Yeah, I'm all for trading Bledsoe, Chandler and maybe Tucker with an eye to landing a few more picks in this draft. Taking Ball is a no-brainer AFAIC even though I'm not convinced he can be your actual point guard. But in this era of position-less basketball it shouldn't be a problem, the guy is simply a baller.

He's the best passer that I've seen since Magic Johnson. You always hear about someone making their teammates better but with Ball, it's not just a cliche.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

He's the best passer that I've seen since Magic Johnson.

There was this floppy hair kid from Canada who was a pretty decent passer...