How Great is the 2017 draft class?

[ozzfloyd]

Isaac is listed as a combo forward by NBA Draft Net and say Markkanen is never a plus defender, his offensive ability is what his calling card will be in the NBA. Bender and Chriss are shooting 31% & 32%, Markkanen is shooting over 50%...big difference.

And over 50% from distance. Unless he really goes into an epic slump he'll be the best % shooting 7 footer from 3 all time, likely by 10-15% better.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'd say you're not paying attention then. I ridiculed McConnell because he plays for the 76ers, which I follow because of Embiid. That was Nov and I've since said he has improved from that Nov performance. McConnell isn't a backup, he's the starting PG for that team.

At the time he was a backup, I am aware that he is currently starting.

It seemed to me to be an rather odd thing to post such bewilderment over, that one of the worst teams in the NBA has struggling backup PG, there is worse trash than McConnell on that roster, but they were spared your ridicule. I suspect you only brought that gripe up here to needle some Arizona fans.

I enjoy a bit of light hearted sniping, I just find it funny that you pretend to be so innocent when called out on it.

 

[slinslin]

Isaac is listed as a combo forward by NBA Draft Net and say Markkanen is never a plus defender, his offensive ability is what his calling card will be in the NBA. Bender and Chriss are shooting 31% & 32%, Markkanen is shooting over 50%...big difference.

Are you really comparing shooting % from the college level to the NBA level? It is not even the same distance.

 

[slinslin]

If we get a top 3 pick I sure expect us to pick Fultz, Ball or Smith.

In that case we should look to move Bledsoe and whatever necessary for a pick in the 5-8 range for Tatum, Jackson or even Isaac. But it is a difficult topic. Even though Fultz, Smith and Ball will be drafted as franchise PGs which would spell the end for Bledsoes longterm future here I can't really see the Suns going into next season with say Fultz/Ulis as their PG rotation. We would have to pick up a veteran PG in free agency.

Not sold on Warren anymore right now as a starter. PG/SF are clearly the positions most attractive for us to draft a young player and 8 of top 10 players in the draft PGs or SFs. The only exceptions are Monk and Markannen. If there was a truly great center prospect it might be a different story.

My PG ranking is probably
1. Fultz
2. Smith/Ball hard to decide
3. Fox/Nikiltina again hard to decide

Fultz is clearly my number 1, no questions asked. Who is #2 is a philosophical question. Smith is individually the better player in my opinion and safer bet to transition his game to the NBA. I think I would go with Smith. He can score, get to the rim, defends and takes care of the ball.

If Fox could shoot he would be in the conversation with the top tier PGs. He is a better more athletic version of Elfrid Payton.

My SF Ranking
1. Jackson/Tatum
2. Isaac

I believe that Tatum will be a good shooter even if he does not shoot the 3 well in college yet. His FT% is legit and that usually is a good indicator of someone who can shoot. He rebounds very well, great body, good size, underrated athleticism, advanced isolation moves.
The big problem I see with Tatum is that he has some Carmelo Anthony ball-stopper elements to his game right now. He needs to get better as a passer.

With Jackson I like his tenacity, defense and passing but he really does not shoot the ball well evidenced by 55%FT. It is bad enough to question if he will ever be an average shooter. Could be a Michael Kidd-Gilchrist situation that prevents him from ever being a star.

 

[Hoop Head]

Not sold on Warren anymore right now as a starter. PG/SF are clearly the positions most attractive for us to draft a young player and 8 of top 10 players in the draft PGs or SFs. The only exceptions are Monk and Markannen. If there was a truly great center prospect it might be a different story.


My SF Ranking
1. Jackson/Tatum
2. Isaac

I believe that Tatum will be a good shooter even if he does not shoot the 3 well in college yet. His FT% is legit and that usually is a good indicator of someone who can shoot. He rebounds very well, great body, good size, underrated athleticism, advanced isolation moves.
The big problem I see with Tatum is that he has some Carmelo Anthony ball-stopper elements to his game right now. He needs to get better as a passer.

With Jackson I like his tenacity, defense and passing but he really does not shoot the ball well evidenced by 55%FT. It is bad enough to question if he will ever be an average shooter. Could be a Michael Kidd-Gilchrist situation that prevents him from ever being a star.

We need a PF more than we need a SF. Marquese might do better at SF, he doesn't look like a very good PF right now but he's still young. We have Warren, who is finally getting back into the swing of things, Dudley, and Tucker there right now. I want Tucker gone but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Dudley and Warren are locked in for the next 2 years though and Marquese is rookie. We need a banger inside who can shoot out to the 3 point line. Maybe Bender or Chriss turns into that player but I doubt it. Unless a wing player like Ben Simmons or Ingram is there when we draft then it's best to pass. It's easier to find a quality wing player in the league now than any other position, be it a pure PG, a scoring PG, a stretch 4, an inside PF, or a legit Center.

 

[slinslin]

Marquese is not a SF. He is a clear PF.

Ben Simmons is not a "wing player". Ben Simmons is pretty much a PF.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I would prefer Fultz much over Ball.

 

[Russ Smith]

I would prefer Fultz much over Ball.

I can see preferring him but after last nights game I'm not sure much. For those that didn't see it UCLA beat UW by 41 points, at UW. The game was hyped as Ball vs Fultz, UCLA started off man with Lonzo on Fultz, he locked him up early, forced a turnover, blocked a shot and went in for a layup as Fultz made zero effort to stop him. UCLA got up double digits quickly and then Fultz put up 12 by the half, but UCLA was up 18. By that point Ball had 9 points 6 boards 3 assists 2 steals and the block and countless deflections.

UCLA put on a big run start of the 2nd half keyed by Ball, hit 3 threes pretty quickly. Fultz had against the UCLA zone. UCLA put the game out of reach and then Fultz did a little stat padding with 10 in the last 10 minutes or so of a game they lost by 40.

Don MacLean, Admittedly a UCLA guy was working the game and he said 5 minutes in "I think I'm excited for this game than Fultz is, he's just got to take over and he looks completely uninterested."

Fultz is a great player and I get off games happen but this was odd, it was a very hyped matchup, UCLA even put Lonzo and Fultz quite a bit, Fultz never guarded Lonzo, but Fultz just seemed to be totally floating the whole game. Its' a testament to how good he is that he got 25, 6 boards 5 assists and 3 steals but he had zero impact. By the time he started scoring UCLA was up double digits, by the time he started playing hard UCLA was up 30.

At the end of the game he was laughing and smiling with Lonzo, after losing by 41 points. Someone on BRO posted that they were sitting next to a bunch of NBA scouts at the game and the scouts were all shaking their heads when they saw Fultz after the game. One guy apparently said "Ball just kicked his butt and he's laughing?"

Great player but it goes back to the point I made earlier, he essentially has no pressure, nobody expects UW to win so he gets no blame when they don't. UW is terribly coached, but I was pretty surprised at the lack of effort Fultz put out, he basically got his stats and didn't seem to care what the overall score was.

 

[GatorAZ]

I can see preferring him but after last nights game I'm not sure much. For those that didn't see it UCLA beat UW by 41 points, at UW. The game was hyped as Ball vs Fultz, UCLA started off man with Lonzo on Fultz, he locked him up early, forced a turnover, blocked a shot and went in for a layup as Fultz made zero effort to stop him. UCLA got up double digits quickly and then Fultz put up 12 by the half, but UCLA was up 18. By that point Ball had 9 points 6 boards 3 assists 2 steals and the block and countless deflections.

UCLA put on a big run start of the 2nd half keyed by Ball, hit 3 threes pretty quickly. Fultz had against the UCLA zone. UCLA put the game out of reach and then Fultz did a little stat padding with 10 in the last 10 minutes or so of a game they lost by 40.

Don MacLean, Admittedly a UCLA guy was working the game and he said 5 minutes in "I think I'm excited for this game than Fultz is, he's just got to take over and he looks completely uninterested."

Fultz is a great player and I get off games happen but this was odd, it was a very hyped matchup, UCLA even put Lonzo and Fultz quite a bit, Fultz never guarded Lonzo, but Fultz just seemed to be totally floating the whole game. Its' a testament to how good he is that he got 25, 6 boards 5 assists and 3 steals but he had zero impact. By the time he started scoring UCLA was up double digits, by the time he started playing hard UCLA was up 30.

At the end of the game he was laughing and smiling with Lonzo, after losing by 41 points. Someone on BRO posted that they were sitting next to a bunch of NBA scouts at the game and the scouts were all shaking their heads when they saw Fultz after the game. One guy apparently said "Ball just kicked his butt and he's laughing?"

Great player but it goes back to the point I made earlier, he essentially has no pressure, nobody expects UW to win so he gets no blame when they don't. UW is terribly coached, but I was pretty surprised at the lack of effort Fultz put out, he basically got his stats and didn't seem to care what the overall score was.

Lonzo is playing with NBA talent and Fultz' teammates are barely D1 caliber. That said Lonzo plays with tremendous energy and Fultz lets the game come to him. If your team gets blown out I don't need to see the players acting "pissed off" to think they're not caring or competitive.

Fultz knows they're garbage. When he committed nobody thought there was a chance of Chriss and Murray being one and done. He could've bolted but stayed loyal to Washington.

As for the game it seemed like Lonzo used the floater more and hit some mid-range jumpers. Also the 3's he was hitting was were NBA-range and he's shooting 43% on 135 attempts. I think we can put the mechanic stuff to rest.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I can see preferring him but after last nights game I'm not sure much..

I think I am beginning to agree. I am wondering whether Ball might not be the more effective NBA player. Its a tough call. Neither of the top two picks should be disappointing.

 

[Russ Smith]

Lonzo is playing with NBA talent and Fultz' teammates are barely D1 caliber. That said Lonzo plays with tremendous energy and Fultz lets the game come to him. If your team gets blown out I don't need to see the players acting "pissed off" to think they're not caring or competitive.

Fultz knows they're garbage. When he committed nobody thought there was a chance of Chriss and Murray being one and done. He could've bolted but stayed loyal to Washington.

As for the game it seemed like Lonzo used the floater more and hit some mid-range jumpers. Also the 3's he was hitting was were NBA-range and he's shooting 43% on 135 attempts. I think we can put the mechanic stuff to rest.

I don't care if he smiles or doesn't, Ball is pretty straight faced too, but UCLA has lost 3 games and Lonzo looked like a guy who was pissed off after every loss, you wouldn't ever see him laughing after a 40 point loss. My concern with Fultz is he just had absolutely no fire, it was very apparent from early on that Ball was very hyped for teh game and going after Fultz personally, and Fultz just sort of let it happen.

I think the NBA talent stuff is overrated too, Leaf is the only other kid on UCLA's roster that's a surefire NBA guy, and even he might not be a first rounder this year with his defensive issues. Anigbogu has a chance but he's nowhere near an NBA guy now. Lonzo is playing guys who were 15-17 last year, plus Lonzo and Leaf, he's completely changed the team.

I'm not saying Fultz is the reason UW is 2-9 in conference, that's on Romar, but he hasn't made anybody better.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think I am beginning to agree. I am wondering whether Ball might not be the more effective NBA player. Its a tough call. Neither of the top two picks should be disappointing.

Lonzo has clear warts but because I watch every UCLA game I'm seeing lots of progress that maybe others don't see. UCLA after the Oregon game challenged the players to start forcing more turnovers on defense because that's a major weakness for the UCLA defense. After that he's had 26 steals, 10 games so 2.6 a game, he's essentially doubled his steals because they asked him to, and against conference teams not weak OOC cupcakes. He's just a "fixer", something is broken he helps fix it.

Fultz is a great player but I am worrying about his competitiveness, several games this year I've came away with the same thoughts he just seems to accept it when the team needs him to take over.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Lonzo has clear warts but because I watch every UCLA game I'm seeing lots of progress that maybe others don't see. UCLA after the Oregon game challenged the players to start forcing more turnovers on defense because that's a major weakness for the UCLA defense. After that he's had 26 steals, 10 games so 2.6 a game, he's essentially doubled his steals because they asked him to, and against conference teams not weak OOC cupcakes. He's just a "fixer", something is broken he helps fix it.

Fultz is a great player but I am worrying about his competitiveness, several games this year I've came away with the same thoughts he just seems to accept it when the team needs him to take over.

I know Fultz has a much worse team, so it is hard to judge. I do know this. Ball seems to be able to produce at a very high level in a winning environment with quality teammates. That is a two-edged sword. Fultz is the only show, so he gets to be the man completely. But that also means that defenses can key on him and he still produces. Ball is not the only player on the team and still produces within that team environment.

Hmmm.

 

[Russ Smith]

I know Fultz has a much worse team, so it is hard to judge. I do know this. Ball seems to be able to produce at a very high level in a winning environment with quality teammates. That is a two-edged sword. Fultz is the only show, so he gets to be the man completely. But that also means that defenses can key on him and he still produces. Ball is not the only player on the team and still produces within that team environment.

Hmmm.

I actually went and looked, Fultz got his first rebound with just over 12 minutes left. at that point he had 16 points, the 1 rebound, and 2 assists and UW was down 78-47. The rest of the game he had 9 points 5 boards and 3 assists, and UW lost by 41. So he put up the bulk of his rebound and assist stats in the last 12, and 9 of his points, and the team LOST another 10 points during that stretch.

I hope the rematch is more competitive at Pauley on March 1st, obviously I want UCLA to win again, but I hope this time around Fultz comes out with a bit more interest and we get a chance to actually see him and Lonzo go at it. Fox and Lonzo played each other quite often when UCLA played UK, not all the time but enough you got an idea and in that matchup Fox slightly outplayed Lonzo but Lonzo made the big plays when needed to keep UCLA in front.

Dennis Smith JR is looking better and better, he reminds me quite a bit of Baron Davis but he's in much better shape, Baron's biggest issue was always his weight, after the injury being that big was a huge hurdle, I don't see Smith having that issue. Plus, ACL surgery has come a LONG ways since then.

 

[hcsilla]

I think I am beginning to agree. I am wondering whether Ball might not be the more effective NBA player. Its a tough call. Neither of the top two picks should be disappointing.

I can't stop dreaming about both in Suns uniform.

 

[slinslin]

Making teammates better is a dubious thing that is hard to prove.

You can be an all-time great player and still lose. Look at Anthony Davis or DeMarcus Cousins and then look at Jeremy Lin during Linsanity in New York.

Would you say you would have rather had Jeremy Lin then because he made his teammates better?

Washington has no pro-propsects that Fultz is playing with, UCLA is stacked.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Making teammates better is a dubious thing that is hard to prove.

You can be an all-time great player and still lose. Look at Anthony Davis or DeMarcus Cousins and then look at Jeremy Lin during Linsanity in New York.

Would you say you would have rather had Jeremy Lin then because he made his teammates better?

Washington has no pro-propsects that Fultz is playing with, UCLA is stacked.

BUT, when players put up similar stats, are considered similar level prospects, and one is the key piece on a winning team while the other's team plays horribly--that seems like it should be a consideration.

I would be happy with either player. Right now I think they are about even. Ball kind of reminds me of Pete Maravich in the way he moves on the floor. He has sort of a lanky jaunt.

 

[slinslin]

Ball and Fultz dont really put up similiar stats. 23/6/6 vs 15/6/8

 

[GatorAZ]

JAy Bilas made a good comparison. Ball's jumper is like Jim Furyk's golf swing. It looks wrong until it goes in.

Btw UCLA vs Oregon tonight.

 

[slinslin]

Ball has yet to prove that he can run the pick and roll.

It is hard to judge him how he would transition to NBA PG when he does not really play like a PG at all in college despite the assist numbers.

He plays like a shooter with great passing. Almost all of his passing is in transition or simply standing around and throwing the ball to an open shooter or cutter.

 

[DWKB]

BTW, Josh Jackson is 13/24 behind the arc the last 6 games. There is a long range shot in there somewhere. He still sucks beyond comprehension at the FT line though.

Defense, both on ball and off ball, passing, and rebounding are constant and impressive.

 

[slinslin]

FT% is more indicative of shooting ability than 3pt% at college level. Justise Winslow managed to shoot 42% from 3 at Duke.

Jackson is still super bad from the line and off the bounce. His shooting is a major red flag and I think it is noteworthy that he is a year older than Fultz etc.

Jayson Tatum projects very well in terms of scoring, FT%, rebounding, steals, blocks etc I think but needs to be a better passer team player but it is nothing too bad. 1.9apg is ok for a forward freshman

Fultz and Tatum would be my prefered combination from this draft if I could pick.

I'd lean towards Isaac over Jackson also.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ball has yet to prove that he can run the pick and roll.

It is hard to judge him how he would transition to NBA PG when he does not really play like a PG at all in college despite the assist numbers.

He plays like a shooter with great passing. Almost all of his passing is in transition or simply standing around and throwing the ball to an open shooter or cutter.

Oh boy, cue the "magic Johnson was not a point guard" insanity.

 

[GatorAZ]

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[slinslin]

Isthat a good basketball play though?