How important is an offensive line ?

[RugbyMuffin]

Shelton Kendall ?????? Davis Clement

All huge, atheletic players. Then why is our team projected to have at the most 5 wins. I think our team will do poorly to start this season off, but once our OL starts to gell I can see our team putting up about 35 pts a game.
This team is starting to remind me of last year's Jets team. Once the Jets OL got comfortable the offense exploded. HMMM, let's see the Jets got an old smashmouth running back, and so do we. The Jets have a decent unproven QB and so do we. And the Jets go to the second round of the playoffs.
OF COURSE. Everyone who doesn't know a thing about football, ESPN, doesn't look at the Cardinals strong point which is the OL. Screw all these predictions. We will see what the BIG RED is going to do as soon as the season starts.

Some very cool things to think about:

1. Smith had his best days as a RB behind that HUGE offensive line Dallas used to have. (Newton, Williams, Stepnoski)

2. Bigger line gives Blake more time, more time means farther pass route will be available.

3. Last year we didn't have any depth what so ever. The only place our team is lacking depth is DL, and DB. Which are necissary position to have but Buffalo didn't have ANY defensive depth at all and they won a bunch of games.

4. And most important. Jake Plummer is not here!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Oh Yeah.

ANd for no reason I would like to say. Simeon Rice is an *sshole.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The reason the offensive line isn't taken into account is that as great as this O-line SHOULD be, they haven't lived up to expectations - whterh it be because of injuries, guys playing out of position o r a lack of getting used to laying with each other. For the last couple years before each season started I can remember progansticators saying that with our mammoth O-line - this could eb the year the Offense does something - but for one reason or another, the O-line has simply never been a dominant force for a 16 game run. The O-line has to go out a prove it on the field, once and for all that they can be dominant, as well all think and hope they can -but until then, NO ONE is going to give us the benefit of the doubt, and in reality why should they. It's gotta be seen on the field.

I will say this - If the O-line is heathy and lives up to expectations and we add one vet receiver like a Muhammad, this offense has the potential to be decent if not very good. Not 35 points a game - that to me is exremely unrealistic, seeing as it would ranki as one of the greatest offensive seasons of all time, but a team that could take time off the clokc and score around 24 a game could happen - but a lot of chips have to fall just right. We'll see.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

35 per game. Yeah man I wasn't thinking. I wanted to say the potential for 35 pts in a game.

But to say that our offensive could be decent at best very good is crazy talk. What is keeping this offense from being a power house. TRUST ME. If Denvers past offensive line could make Terrell Davis look like a hall of famer what is stopping our OL from doing the same to Blake or Smith who both have proven to be all-pro caliber players.

I think a lot of people are vastly overlooking our OL. But that is fine. Ask Detriot's defense how they feel after game 1.

Peace Brother

 

[Russ Smith]

I agree 35 per game is asking too much of ANY offense.

On paper we have a great OL, but it has to be healthy and it hasn't been yet.

IF the OL stays healthy, Blake limits the turnovers, and the defensive focus on speed does what I hope, this team could win 8-10 games. But that's a lot of ifs.

The problem we have is we have no "playmaker" at a skill position a guy who can simply win a game by himself now and then. Blake is good but he's not Favre, WR's are all unproven, Emmitt is past his prime. we have to win each game as a team we don't have a Randy Moss to make 2 great catches for TD's, we don't have a dominant defensive star take over a game etc.

That's why staying healthy is so critical to us IMHO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by RugbyMuffin
35 per game. Yeah man I wasn't thinking. I wanted to say the potential for 35 pts in a game.

But to say that our offensive could be decent at best very good is crazy talk. What is keeping this offense from being a power house. TRUST ME. If Denvers past offensive line could make Terrell Davis look like a hall of famer what is stopping our OL from doing the same to Blake or Smith who both have proven to be all-pro caliber players.

I think a lot of people are vastly overlooking our OL. But that is fine. Ask Detriot's defense how they feel after game 1.

Peace Brother

Yeah, but in addition to Denver's awesome O-line (and probably one of the best the league hs ever seen), they also had two great reciever's in Rod Smith and Ed McAffrey, not to mention Shannon Sharpe, not to mention John Elway - thus, defenses were at a quandry as to how defend that team - you couldn't key on any one area, becasue you would get exposed everywhere else. Also - Terrell Davis was in the prime of his career, where as Emmit (and surely you can't argue with this) is on the downside of his. Now if you said Shipp runnign through the O-line I would agree, but still our lack of experience and possibly talent(none of us really no what any of our reciever's are going to be able to accomplish) set us completely apart from the Bronco comparison in my mind.

That being said, I hope the O-line does get it's crap together and mauls people this year. I do agree that they could be the key to have a successful offense.

 

[kerouac9]

I disagree about your conclusions about the reasons for the Jets late-season rally (defensive growth/scheme changes, a healthy running back, good WRs), but Cheese is right here.

Our offensive line has coasted for three years on it's reputation. The Big Red Line? Please. More like the Big Red Disappointment. Every season we've gone in talking about how we should be able to run the ball and keep it for 45 minutes of possession time a game and keep the D off the field. I have yet to see it happen, early in the season or late. Part of this has to do with the fact that the D can't stop anyone, but the other part is that our line can't pass-protect very well. Jake was rolling out of the "pocket" too often last season, and whether this was because he couldn't see the field over the line (NB: Blake is 2 inches shorter than Plummer), or because he was dumb, or couldn't sit in the pocket, or whatever, the fact remains that he was constantly under duress.

Teams at the beginning of the season stacked 8-9 players in the box to negate the line, and DB was supposed to stretch the field on a fly or go route when that happened. Jake couldn't get the ball to him, so ended up dumping it off for a pick or something. If the WRs can't catch the go route from Blake, it's just as bad as Plummer not being about to hit DB on the same pattern.

Power running teams don't in general score a lot of points. The last true power running team I remember were the Bucs of 97-01. They ran the ball, let the D get it back, and won 9-11 games a year 10-6. Warrick Dunn was their home run threat (We don't have one, unless you count Damian Anderson). Our D isn't that good, so I don't want to hitch my wagon to a power running offense in 2003, unless you want to lose 9-11 games 27-10.

For the record, Rugby: Buffalo finished last in their division, and were last in the league in picks. I don't think that that's a franchise you'd like to use as your template. If you didn't notice, they spent a ton of money this offseason on D (Spikes and that DT from Oakland, as a couple examples).

 

[spanky]

In every thread that talks about our offense, the one thing that never seems to get mentioned is the addition of Hodgins and the likely emergence of Fred Jones as a big time tight end.

IMHO the offensive side of the team is likely going to be not just decent, but very very good.

Of course everyone needs to be healthy, but if that can happen, Blake, behind this O-Line, might just light it up.

I have that annual case of optimism that strikes us all at this time of year.........but this time, I think it's for real......10-6 is doable!

 

[CardinalChris]

Actually it took the Jets' defense to gel to make that run.....

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by spanky
In every thread that talks about our offense, the one thing that never seems to get mentioned is the addition of Hodgins and the likely emergence of Fred Jones as a big time tight end.

IMHO the offensive side of the team is likely going to be not just decent, but very very good.

Of course everyone needs to be healthy, but if that can happen, Blake, behind this O-Line, might just light it up.

I have that annual case of optimism that strikes us all at this time of year.........but this time, I think it's for real......10-6 is doable!

True but if the WR's don't get it done teams will key on Jones and key on our run game. Hodgins' impact is going to be negated if we're facing 8-9 man lines all year again.

I don't think we will be I think Blake will beat that defense, but it's going to be tougher without a proven WR.

I'd feel a lot more positive if our entire OL was in good shape and healthy right now but I realize that's pretty rare.

 

[earthsci]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I don't think we will be I think Blake will beat that defense, but it's going to be tougher without a proven WR.

You are absolutely correct. I have a good feeling that at least 2 of our receivers will step up and be those proven receivers.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

TRUE TRUE

I must agree. If our "awesome" offensive line doesn't give us anything this year than they are worthless. Put up or shut up time is right.

 

[40yearfan]

Re: Oh Yeah.

Originally posted by RugbyMuffin
ANd for no reason I would like to say. Simeon Rice is an *sshole.

<p>Speaking of Simian (misspelling intentional), did anyone see him on Channel 12 last night. He's still saying Pat Tillman is not a very good player and that's his opinion and he doesn't care what anyone else thinks about it. He also say he would come back and play for the Cardinals as long as Coach Mac was the head coach.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Plus

Originally posted by earthsci
You are absolutely correct. I have a good feeling that at least 2 of our receivers will step up and be those proven receivers.

Have you seen the size of our rook receivers.....they have a rep as outstanding blockers and now I see why!!!

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Oh Yeah.

Originally posted by 40yearfan
<p>Speaking of Simian (misspelling intentional), did anyone see him on Channel 12 last night. He's still saying Pat Tillman is not a very good player and that's his opinion and he doesn't care what anyone else thinks about it. He also say he would come back and play for the Cardinals as long as Coach Mac was the head coach.

Pat Tillman not only isn't a "very good" player, he's not even a good player. He's a special-teamer, and would never make the Pro-Bowl as a special teamer. If he was still the starting Strong Safety for the Cards, I would kill myself.

There was a reason we drafted Adrian Wilson in the second or third round in 2001, and it was to fill Tilly's job with a real football player.

 

[JeffGollin]

I'm not sure a great O-Line can necessarily carry a team. But one thing I do feel strongly about - You build a winning franchise off a solid O-Line foundation. And without a very good O-Line, we're never going anywhere.

Look at the really good Cardinal teams of the past - they always had great O-Lines: i.e. the Ernie McMillan, Bobby Reynolds era or the Dierdorf, Dobler, Banks era.

Russ has a point - we have good starters (and, by the way, a pretty deep and talented bench). But they've got to stay reasonably healthy to mean anything.

 

[conraddobler]

I think Plummer hurt more than anything else.

While we had line problems thats for sure and they did not dominate like they should have part of this had to do with the whole we will win it in the 4th crap that Jake caused.

I ask this question, after years of being on a team that never scores in the first half mainly cause the QB almost refuses to play until the second half, would you as an offensive lineman be able to give it your all?

I think the feeling of malaise was just everywhere in the first half of ball games.

I pray Sullivan and Blake fixes this, the first half is good for a few bombs. Jake never did this I think Blake will.

You stake that line to a two touchdown lead and then let them root hog it out and I like our chances against anybody.

I am not saying everything was Jakes fault but no one can argue that the man was absolutely horrid in the first half of ball games.

 

[gnomepete]

Re: Oh Yeah.

Originally posted by RugbyMuffin
ANd for no reason I would like to say. Simeon Rice is an *sshole.

How about for no reason OTHER THAN IT'S TRUE ? ? ? . . . CHKL . . . ;D

Pete

 

[AntSports Steve]

Well, if the OL comes thru this year, I think they now have depth as most of the position to survive a few injuries.

But, the Cards OL is still has tons of unanswered questions.

Can Clement recover from his injuries and be a starter? I, for one, don't just expect to pencil him in as the starter. 2 tears in the same mussle might mean that he's done.

Who's going to be the starting center. Right now, any of the players the Cards have would be backup centers on most NFL teams. One of them needs to come thru during camp or a June 1st vet center needs to be aquired.

Is Big staying at guard this year?

Can Kendal make it thru the year without missing games to injuries?

Is Shelton a quality starting LT? Are the Cards giving him an extension?

If the questions get answered favorablely, then the Card may have a good OL. Otherwise, their average at best.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by spanky
In every thread that talks about our offense, the one thing that never seems to get mentioned is the addition of Hodgins and the likely emergence of Fred Jones as a big time tight end.

You mentioned the tight ends. I think this a part of the o line that is often overlooked. If the blocking of your tight ends stink, it really brings down your ability to run the ball in critical short-yardage situations.

I am very suspicious of the run blocking ability of this group of cardinals players.

connraddobbler pointed out that jake probably did not help make the oline look good last year and I would agree with that as well.

outside of that, I was pleased with the improvement of the oline last year. I honestly think they played better, even with a lot of injuries.

finally I would like to say that I think the game is pretty much won and lost based on your offensive and defensive line play. If you have a quality offensive and defensive line, that makes you better than about 75% of the other teams, and you'll end up in the playoffs at the end of the season.

 

[Skkorpion]

Gee, that "underperforming" Ol, despite losing Clement, Grutts, and Kendall, and being saddled with RB Thomas Jones half the year, ended up putting up these numbers:

15 th in rushing average at 113.9 YPG
10 th in average per carry at 4.4 ypc
Tied for 10th in fewest sacks allowed at 41.

Ah, never mind, don't let facts hinder your perception. All they point out is that despite having a losing team, missing 3/5ths of the OL, and losing all 3 top WRs, the line performed better than most of the NFL lines.

There really is a lot of knowledge on this board but sometimes the self-flagellating myopia is overwhelming.

 

[CardsRep03]

15 th in rushing average at 113.9 YPG
10 th in average per carry at 4.4 ypc
Tied for 10th in fewest sacks allowed at 41.


I'm SO glad you posted those stats. For all the offensive woes we've had the last couple of years, OLine was not one of them. Can they improve, oh sure. But I thought in 2001 they were really impressive. Any stats on the 2001 season? Thanks, you da man,...er, uh, you are really awesome.........dude

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Re: Re: Oh Yeah.

Originally posted by 40yearfan
<p>Speaking of Simian (misspelling intentional), did anyone see him on Channel 12 last night. He's still saying Pat Tillman is not a very good player and that's his opinion and he doesn't care what anyone else thinks about it. He also say he would come back and play for the Cardinals as long as Coach Mac was the head coach.

You just put me in a cold sweet. If Rice ever put on another Cardinal uniform and went out on the Cardinals field I would never watch the Cardinals again ! Rice is an @ss.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Gee, that "underperforming" Ol, despite losing Clement, Grutts, and Kendall, and being saddled with RB Thomas Jones half the year, ended up putting up these numbers:

15 th in rushing average at 113.9 YPG
10 th in average per carry at 4.4 ypc
Tied for 10th in fewest sacks allowed at 41.

Ah, never mind, don't let facts hinder your perception. All they point out is that despite having a losing team, missing 3/5ths of the OL, and losing all 3 top WRs, the line performed better than most of the NFL lines.

There really is a lot of knowledge on this board but sometimes the self-flagellating myopia is overwhelming.

I don't doubt those stats at all, Skorp. What I'm saying is that those represent an above-average to good offensive line, but people are talking about this line being "dominant" and "the best in the league." I have yet to see that kind of performance.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I don't doubt those stats at all, Skorp. What I'm saying is that those represent an above-average to good offensive line, but people are talking about this line being "dominant" and "the best in the league." I have yet to see that kind of performance.

Above average to good, missing 3 to 5 starters and never having the entire line healthy at the same time.

The line also had to face a lot of eight man fronts, since they had a QB that couldn't beat the blitz to save his life and a bunch of lame receivers the entire season. So the line was quite impressive last year, or at least imo.