How Will Turkoglu Be Used?

[Irish]

I don't know if the "striping" problem was just Amare's goggles. I think teams learn how to react to a player. If trying to block Amare's shot is an automatic "plus one" and others have success at striping him, then that's the plan. Previously it was to try to take a charge, but Amare did get a bit better at avoiding those.

 

[Joe Mama]

Agree elindholm it was almost painful to try and watch Amare create and take terrible shots shots and yell and one as he threw up a brick or got it stolen on the way to the basket! Amares' success was mostly when Nash was setting him up.

I'm not sure if some of you guys are just selectively remembering the negatives now that Amare Stoudemire is gone. I mean I certainly griped about his defense/rebounded (or lack thereof), but offensively he is one of the best in the game. The guy has no problem creating his own shot. So many people here wanted David Lee to replace Amare Stoudemire. Now that is somebody who does not create his own shot, and he's doing it against single defense most of the time. Don't forget that Amare Stoudemire's defenders almost always received help on him. There are very few defenders who he can not just dominate one on one.

Having said that, his deficiencies on the other side of the court combined with the fact that so much of his offense game depend on his athleticism had me agreeing with Sarver's approach to his contract negotiations. Bruce Cooper on Channel 12 has been all over the place saying that Amare has shown he can come back from injuries. That may be true, but it seems like each time he loses just a little bit of his athleticism (not to mention you would be paying somebody $20 million while he rehabilitated). If Amare loses much more of his athleticism key will be in trouble. Defenders will be able to step out on his jump shot a little more without fear of being beaten to the basket. He really doesn't have a jump hook or anything like that which would allow him to just back people down and shoot over them.. His one-on-one offense is almost entirely beating people off the dribble or hitting the midrange jumper when they give him too much room.

Post up, 18.8%, 0.982 PPP, top 82% of the league, 13.6% turnover rate, 17.3% of these possessions resulted in free throws.

pick and roll man , 17.6%, 1.177 PPP, top 80% of the league, 9.7% turnover rate, 19.7% of these possessions resulted in free throws.

Isolation, 14.2%, 0.948 PPP, top 82% of the league, 10.8% turnover rate, 12.4% of these possessions resulted in free throws.

overall offense, 1.078 PPP, top 95% of the league, 12.1% turnover rate, 18% of possessions resulted in free throws.

He is one of the sample players on the fan website if you want to see all his numbers.

Www.mySynergySports.com

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Thanks for those numbers, Joe Mama. I've been complaining about Stoudemire's post offense for years. It seemed especially true to me that when the Suns made up their minds to dump the ball into him, come hell or high water, the results were bad more often than they were good, and they lost several games that way. For him to be in the 82nd percentile as a post player is not all that impressive. I also note that he drew a lot of fouls that way, but that means that his PPP when not getting fouled was even lower -- and, as we know, officials stop blowing whistles late in games or in the postseason, which means that Stoudemire's efficiency in the post in those situations was lower than the 0.982 figure. His alarmingly high turnover rate in the post (almost one possession out of every seven!) made that option even less appealing.

The Suns shot nearly 40% as a team from the three-point line, which is 1.2 PPP (when they got a shot off). Stoudemire was close to 1.2 as the P&R man as well. Those were the Suns' best weapons. For an offense as efficient as Phoenix's has been the last several years, under 1.0 PPP from your best big man in post-ups or isolations doesn't cut it.

Also, you mention that Stoudemire's defenders often had help, which is true, but his decision-making in those situations has usually been poor, as evidenced by both his high turnover rate and his low assist numbers.

 

[chickenhead]

I do think that for some, criticism of Amare's current game is impacted by the expectation for a precipitous decline. In addition to his injury history, he doesn't have the all-around game that would allow him to eat minutes as ge gets older. Not has he shown the interest in developing those things (either that or he overrates his abilities--see his comment about being a "rebounding kind of guy").

So, not entirely fair to saddle him with criticism of what hasn't yet happened, but when you're talking about something like a 5 year deal, speculation has to be part of the evaluation.

 

[Mainstreet]

This is not a knock Amare after he is gone post. I wish the Suns could have kept him except he was a huge gamble injury wise for the amount of money he commanded. I wish him the best and he should be applauded when he returns to Phoenix. Now onwards.

It seemed Amare was always getting the ball stripped when the ball was held too low near the basket or he was trying to gather up a loose ball. Also he had trouble going up in a crowd with big front lines. Amare always had the reputation of having great hands and correctly so, however, he did not have strong hands under the basket.

I heard heard Gentry on the radio yesterday talking about Amare. He said things would not change much with the Suns offense as Amare did not have a back-to-the-basket post up game. So I think the Suns have some players at PF, especially Turkoglu, who will fit. IMO, Turkoglu was a good choice to replace Amare because he is not only a slasher but has a good outside shot which the Suns other PFs don't.

However, there is no doubt about the Suns missing Amare because he is much better player than the Suns current PFs.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Turk's game is much like Grant Hill's. Hill does seem to able (more than Turk) to morph into what is needed in given situations. Grant has turned into a rebounder when necessary. With Hill, Turk, and Nash, you will have a lot of bball smarts on the court at the same time. I assume there will be a front line of Turk, Lopez, Hill. Turk is a better defender than most will admit. Its not a bad defensive front court. Rebounding is the question.

 

[Covert Rain]

Something tells me we are going to have our SG, PF playing from 3 points land 90% of the time. Which means the only inside game we will get is when Grant Hill drives to the bucket or we get a pick and roll out Nash/Lopez.

This team will shoot more jump shots then last year.

 

[Chaplin]

Something tells me we are going to have our SG, PF playing from 3 points land 90% of the time. Which means the only inside game we will get is when Grant Hill drives to the bucket or we get a pick and roll out Nash/Lopez.

This team will shoot more jump shots then last year.

Hmm, I think we'll see JRich down low more often.

One thing is for sure, Channing better develop some kind of post game or at least have Warrick do it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Hmm, I think we'll see JRich down low more often.

One thing is for sure, Channing better develop some kind of post game or at least have Warrick do it.

Catch and dunk is what Warrick does best. And he does it tolerably well. The problem is that he doesn't do much else.

 

[Chaplin]

Catch and dunk is what Warrick does best. And he does it tolerably well. The problem is that he doesn't do much else.

Right. That's why I said that they need to LEARN how to do it. Nobody else will, so somebody has to.

 

[Covert Rain]

Hmm, I think we'll see JRich down low more often.

One thing is for sure, Channing better develop some kind of post game or at least have Warrick do it.

That's part of what scares me. You could potentially at times have a center in Frye, Turk and JR out there and they are all out at the 3 point line. Then your only option for paint points is your PG or SF.

That will be a feast or famine scenario. Shots fall you look good. They don't your going to sink real fast.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That's part of what scares me. You could potentially at times have a center in Frye, Turk and JR out there and they are all out at the 3 point line. Then your only option for paint points is your PG or SF.

That will be a feast or famine scenario. Shots fall you look good. They don't your going to sink real fast.

And all those players have looked their best at the 3 point line when they've had a weapon such as Amare (or Howard, or even Webber) drawing the defensive attention. It will be interesting to see if we can make this work.

Steve

 

[BC867]

And all those players have looked their best at the 3 point line when they've had a weapon such as Amare (or Howard, or even Webber) drawing the defensive attention. It will be interesting to see if we can make this work.

Steve

Good point. With our only NBA offensive skills 23 feet from the basket, they're going to be smothered.

Why doesn't our General Manager do something to balance the team?

 

[devilalum]

I think it was 05-06 when Amare was out for the season. The Suns didn't have any problem scoring in the paint and they still took an outrageous number of 3 point shots. I see Turk.. and maybe JRich filling the Diaw role and Warrick filling the Marion back door role. Nash also gets in the paint and draws the defense a lot for kick out 3s. The Suns are still going to have plenty of open 3 point looks. Nash created the open looks not Amare.

 

[Chaplin]

It's as simple as this:



And the original Party Machine video:

http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2010/03/31/the-jones-hedo-turkoglu-party-machine/

All I can say is: BALL

 

[Mainstreet]

There is an interesting article on RealGM evaluating the Barbosa/ Turkloglu trade. Whether you agree with the grades or not it is a good read from writer Christopher Reina dated 7-15-10.

The matchups Phoenix uses will be intriguing since they will be able to go small or big with Turkoglu, depending on the opponent.

On the defensive end, Turkoglu is much better suited defending power forwards than he is athletic small forwards. His performance on this end of the floor is absolutely not a strength, but he is perfectly adequate and having a strong defensive center beside him in Robin Lopez, as he had with Howard, makes life infinitely easier. He famously isn't very good on the glass, which is another area where having Lopez offsets the deficiency.

In terms of talent and the potential to help keep the Nash era afloat in spite of the Amar'e loss, I'm not sure if the Suns could have done much better than acquiring Turkoglu. The Jazz made a similar trade in response to losing Carlos Boozer by acquiring Al Jefferson, except it came at a cheaper price in terms of assets. There were several other similar players available, but I'm not sure Barbosa would have brought back any of them.

http://realgm.com/src_feature_piece...he_deal_raptors_successfully_unload_turkoglu/

 

[leclerc]

There is an interesting article on RealGM evaluating the Barbosa/ Turkloglu trade. Whether you agree with the grades or not it is a good read from writer Christopher Reina dated 7-15-10.

http://realgm.com/src_feature_piece...he_deal_raptors_successfully_unload_turkoglu/

Good article. I really agree with this part:

The Suns have approximately $24M committed to Turkoglu, Josh Childress, Channing Frye and Hakim Warrick, which is an ungodly amount of money for four guys that should probably be rotation players on most teams.

Phoenix went to the Western Conference Finals on the strength of their bench play, getting outstanding performances out of guys like Goran Dragic and Jared Dudley. It seems as though the Suns have taken that even further this offseason with how they let Stoudemire walk in favor of the contracts given to Frye and Warrick, plus this trade. Phoenix now becomes Nash, Richardson and potentially Lopez, plus a dream team of role players.

In a strange way, the Suns are the binary opposite of the Miami Heat.

I kind of like it though. It is a team sport even though recent years have focused on supa stars and the ref. I hope they gel and have fun. Turkoglu and Childress could be good for us. Gonna miss Barbosa though.

 

[elindholm]

I don't understand the "ungodly" comment. Is the writer saying that $24M is too much to pay for your 4th through 7th men? Would he prefer that the Suns spend nearly that amount on Rashard Lewis by himself?

 

[Chaplin]

I don't understand the "ungodly" comment. Is the writer saying that $24M is too much to pay for your 4th through 7th men? Would he prefer that the Suns spend nearly that amount on Rashard Lewis by himself?

Agreed. The first part of his sentence sounds like a strong condemnation of the amount and the second part of the sentence sounds like we're in a good spot.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was more taken aback by this comment

The Jazz made a similar trade in response to losing Carlos Boozer by acquiring Al Jefferson, except it came at a cheaper price in terms of assets.

Is he really suggesting that 2 first round picks are cheaper assets than Barbosa? A Utah draft pick probably isn't worth a whole lot but it's still hard to justify given Leandro's contract and performance of late,

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

I was more taken aback by this comment Is he really suggesting that 2 first round picks are cheaper assets than Barbosa? A Utah draft pick probably isn't worth a whole lot but it's still hard to justify given Leandro's contract and performance of late,

Steve

Its about Barbosa. To most fans and press, Barbosa is still the Suns 6th man. They do not understand how redundant his role had become on thise team and the decline of this past year.

You can be GM's know it though. We probably could have gotten more for him, though. Brian HAD to get rid of Turkoglu and we bailed him out cheap.

 

[Joe Mama]

I was more taken aback by this comment Is he really suggesting that 2 first round picks are cheaper assets than Barbosa? A Utah draft pick probably isn't worth a whole lot but it's still hard to justify given Leandro's contract and performance of late,

Steve

I agree. I like Barbosa, but that $15 million for the next two seasons he was generally viewed as a negative asset. The Utah Jazz gave up two first-round draft picks for Al Jefferson, who I wanted no part of for the Phoenix Suns anyway.

Joe Mama

 

[AzStevenCal]

We probably could have gotten more for him, though. Brian HAD to get rid of Turkoglu and we bailed him out cheap.

That was my first reaction to the trade but upon further consideration, I'm not so sure. I can hear knowledgeable Raptor fans (if they exist?) saying the same thing about Barbs. There are reasons for Leandro's play this year (and last year, for that matter) that most of us are aware of that an outsider may not realize. I don't follow the Raptors well enough to know if there are equally valid reasons for Turk's disappointing season.

steve

 

[Sunburn]

Turk's game is much like Grant Hill's. Hill does seem to able (more than Turk) to morph into what is needed in given situations. Grant has turned into a rebounder when necessary. With Hill, Turk, and Nash, you will have a lot of bball smarts on the court at the same time. I assume there will be a front line of Turk, Lopez, Hill. Turk is a better defender than most will admit. Its not a bad defensive front court. Rebounding is the question.

Turk is a good defender at the 3. At the 4, he's terrible, giving up more production than even Amare or David Lee. This is why I'm so adamant about picking up a starting 4.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Al Jefferson, who I wanted no part of for the Phoenix Suns anyway.

Joe Mama

I know a lot of people felt the same as you but I would have gambled on him. I'm not sure how he'd fit in but this year/this lineup seemed like the perfect time to roll the dice. He clearly fills one of our more glaring needs and AFAIC he just becomes one of several question marks that can't be answered till the pieces come together. I look at him on our roster and really think that if everything fell just perfectly we could contend for a championship. Looking at our current roster, I'd say even our best case scenario falls well short of that.

Steve