How Would You Try To Beat The Suns?

[Joe Mama]

Thanks for saving me a bunch of time Eric. The Suns offense is not nearly as potent against a zone defense, but it is still much, much better than it has been in the last few years. Two years ago when the Suns went the playoffs they were absolutely horrible against a zone. They could do almost nothing against it. yet the most they would ever see it was 5-10 minutes per game. I could never understand it.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Leandro said the Suns don't practice much against the zone.

My guess is that the Suns don't practice against the zone because they don't use the zone much themselves. It might work if Hunter was starting, but few teams will zone with their small lineup.

The Suns are better against the zone at least partly because Amare can hit that 15 footer from the foul line. A lot of zones are weak in the foul line area because pulling the center from near the basket leaves the zone too vulnerable.

 

[Errntknght]

(A number of ideas I espouse appear in other posts - I wrote this offline before I logged on today - and maybe they're worth repeating.)

There isn't a way to beat the Suns that doesn't depend on the players you have to work with. My two primary goals would be to keep Nash from penetrating and to attack Amare in every possible way when my team is on offense.

The attack on Amare is not to get him off the floor, just to get enough fouls on him that he goes into his ultra-passive mode on defense. You want him on the floor because at his best he's a lazy defender. At his worst you can use him to rub your defender off like he was setting a screen for you.

The attack is not just direct - whoever he guards should be very active setting on-ball and off-ball picks. It's usually fairly easy to get him to switch on defense so before a direct attack you get him on someone he'll have diffculty guarding. Amare guards his man unagressively when he's not an immediate threat to score so when his man moves laterally or outward from the bucket Amare lags well behind. There are many situations where it is very desireable to have a man in the middle loosely guarded long enough to catch a pass and throw one. You could make a playbook full of plays that would take advantage of that. Amare's man could break from the low post to the middle and have a second or two to complete the play.

An example of when you'd use it is when Shawn is fronting his man. Amare's man breaks to the middle and relays the ball to Shawn's man as he goes to the hoop.

It depends somewhat on who on your team Shawn is defending but in general I'd go at him with a barrage of back picks on the wing and cross picks in the low post. Shawn's advantage is his ability to move and deny his man the ball. Screening him neutralizes that advantage - his man just needs enough daylight to catch a pass as once he has the ball his size usually gives him the advantage. Some guys might be agile enough to curl up off a down pick on Shawn to get their bit of space. Amare's man would set most of the picks on the wing and probably Q's or JJ's the cross picks or down picks.

Of course, you might have a player like Zack Randolf who is best catching the ball in a more or less static position. In this case the problem isn't getting him the ball but dealing with the double team the Suns will come with. By watching Suns game film you can figure out where the Suns most likely double from and space the floor to determine who's man will double. You want him to break to the middle as soon as his man goes to double, and thence to the hoop if he's open for a pass. At the same time you rotate another perimeter player to the spot he vacated as a secondary target for the pass out of the double team. The first option after that is a pass right back to "Zack" - the doubler having left by then, of course, in search of his man and "Zack" has probably improved his position. If another double ensues you're happy to repeat the process with the defense already in some disarray.

You wouldn't choose to leave Nash out of the fun when you're on offense because him you would like to get off the floor. In fact, if you have someone who can take him off the dribble or by a pick and roll type play you might want to make him your first target. If his man can post him up, naturally you pursue that. If you don't have much chance of forcing him into foul trouble you'd want whoever he is guarding to make him work hard on defense just on general principles.

To counter the Suns fast break you make sure your players have a solid grasp of who has backcourt responsibility in every situation. You'd also want any player who didn't have such responsibility and was in Nash's vicinity when the Suns got the ball would try to deny him the ball or make him retreat to get it. Naturally, you emphasize that they have to get back even after made baskets and you keep fresh troops on the floor as much as your roster allows.

As far as running with the Suns it would depend on whether the team had the players to attempt it. If they did, I'd give it a shot figuring that I'd go deeper into the bench than D'Antoni would and may end up with the advantage in the fourth quarter. (We saw at Denver that the Nugs did pretty well running and the Suns were walking the ball up quite a bit by the end of the game.)

On defense the primary goal is keeping Nash out of the middle. My favorite strategy would be to use a lot of zone because that also neutralizes Amare to some extent. It's hard to say which zone without knowing what players you have but probably not a 2-3. With a pesky defensive guard I might try a "box and 1" with the 1 hounding Nash. A 2-1-2 with the 1 attuned to Nash might go better with a different team and I would consider a 3-2 since the Suns keep so many players on the perimeter. Ideally, your team would be practiced at all of them and you'd show the Suns some variety.

I know a good number of you think the Suns have no trouble with zones now but I'm not buying that yet. It seems to me that zones still give them problems but teams give up using them as soon as the Suns have a little success. I think what is the case is that teams don't use zones much and feel uneasy doing it so they give up far too readily. Of course, you want to mix in some man D and it would be nice to mix up the type of zone, too - but I'd make the Suns prove conclusively that they can beat a zone before I quit using of it. And if they beat it by bombing away from long range I'd give it a good rest but try it again. The higher the prssure surrounding the game, the more inclined I'd be to pack it in and challenge the Suns to make 3's.

When playing man-to-man Nash is definitely trapped off the pick and roll and the guys would practice how to cut down on his passing angles during the trap. You obviously want to make it hard for him to get the ball to the man rolling to the basket. Nothing new there but lots of teams don't do it.

Against Amare I'd do what seems to work best - lots of physical play inside and I'd try to surprise him with sporadic doubles from a variety of angles aiming to dislodge the ball. He does still cough it up a good bit when he drives into traffic.

I wouldn't claim such an approach would beat the Suns - it all still comes down to execution even if the strategy is a good one. It's really an exercise is in thinking through what I see as some of the weaknesses in their game. As the season goes on we'll see even good teams gearing up to beat the Suns and it will be interesting to see what works and what doesn't.

 

[George O'Brien]

DEFENSE

Defensive focus on the Nash to Stoudemire two man game is crucial to beating the Suns at crunch time. Stocton and Malone did the same stuff for years, everyone knew it was coming, and no one stopped it. Amare is not quite the back to the basket guy he will need to be, but even now teams are having problems with it.

Taking away the two man game seems to require letting one of the Suns' wing guys get open looks. Even the Wolves could not really defend the Suns shooters. The Suns simply missed too many open shots although their shot selection was what hurt the most.

The irony is that the Suns are scoring almost 110 ppg and their offense is still not as smooth as will be as the season goes on. The Suns half court passing needs to be much quicker with better recognition of who the open man is by all the players and not just Nash.

OFFENSE

The Suns have problems with teams that hit their shots, although they are hardly unique in that category. Teams that try to beat the Suns with one on one play are not doing that well against the Suns. Pass the ball and hit open shots is almost always to beat anybody.

At the same time, the Suns are certainly vulnerable to teams with tall low post offensive players who have guys who will get to the weak side to grab rebounds.

 

[Gaddabout]

I guess I'll drag this out some more. A couple reasons why the Suns struggle against the zone:

1. The Suns are a motion/flow team. Nash dribbles and penetrates on every play looking for someone open underneath or someone open on the wing. It has been pointed out many times that Nash is the only guy at the NBA who can deliver the ball to open men at odd angles at full speed. It's difficult to quantify how unique and remarkable this is.

2. The Suns are a pretty good jump shooting team, but they're not nearly as effective when Nash can't get into the middle and distribute. If they have to stand around the perimeter and pass to find the open guy, their FG percentage is going to drop dramatically. The less Nash can penetrate, the less likely the Suns will have one of those scoring spurts.

3. If Nash can't penetrate and the Suns have four guys on the perimeter, it's basically Amare vs. the entire opposing squad for the rebound. It's a one-and-done series.

As others have noted, there aren't many good zone teams. This is definately true for teams with kids who either didn't play or didn't play for four years at a good college program. They're not exposed to the intricasies of zone defense and it's not natural to them. Nash can still find holes in certain zones and dish, so it's rendered ineffective most of the time.

 

[Skkorpion]

How do you stop the Suns? Only Minnesota can do it over a series, in my opinion.

1. Play a zone. (obvious) But Minnesota has long players who can alter inside shots from all of our front line. Most teams don't have enough long players to work a zone a whole game. Minnesota does.

2. Have a 4th quarter guy who can shoot and score on anybody - Sam Cassell. The other players can just pound the boards, or better yet, fall back fast into that zone.

The rest has been covered by everyone else.

 

[jibikao]

I also think of all the teams, T-Wolves has the best chance to beat Suns.

I am not too sure about Spurs but I have to see how Suns does it in the first match up.

The reason I think T-Wolves will give Suns the biggest problem is that:
1.) KG's long hand will reduce Amare's effectiveness to almost 1/2.
2.) T-Wolves is a VERY good rebounding team and Suns will lose tons of rebounds to T-Wolves unless Hunter is ready to step up.
3.) If Cassell starts to shoot well, he can shoot over Nash 100% of the time. Nash is not tall enough to cause him trouble.


However, T-Wolves has been really inconsistent as well. Spree is not happy with the situation and he's been playing really bad. Cassel has been playing really bad as well. The only guy that shows up is KG but KG is a bit soft too.

The easiest way to beat Spurs is outside shooting. Tim Duncan hates going outside to defend so PF should be open all the time. I think that's why Sonics can beat Spurs twice in a row.

Jimmy

 

[jibikao]

Oh.... from my previous experiences with Mavs in the playoffs, I've noticed:

1.) To take out Mavs, take out Nash first. Mavs has NO BALL MOVEMENT without Nash. Without Nash, the team is only an one-on-one team with Dirk shooting over the people.

How to take out Nash?
A.) Find a taller guy with long arms to harse him. I notice that when the defender is taller, Nash has trouble seeing the court in a half-court game. His pass is a lot slower and he tends to dribble too much because he tries to penetreate. The defender doesn't need to steal the ball from Nash but he just needs to keep harrasing Nash. Oh yeah, and be very physical with Nash...just like what Snow did in the first match up.

B.) Double Team Nash at top. I've noticed a few times that when you double team Nash, the other players would just stand there and wait for Nash to pass the ball out of Double Team. The players should run around, trying to confuse the defenders or simply set picks for Nash to come out the double team. I've noticed that double team Nash is A LOT less successful this year because Suns has 5 players that can score. The opponent cannot afford to double team anyone (except Amare down low) so this is another reason why I think Suns is better than 2003 Mavs.

Another reason why Nash has more penetration this year is the No Hand Check rule. Nash has benefited A LOT from that. This is another reason why I think Suns will be successful this year because Nash can penetrate almost at will now. As long as Suns can keep their 45%+ shooting, Suns will win.

Defense wise, Suns is very good at stoping one-on-one team. Suns is very bad at defending pick and roll and you can see that in games against Utah and Kings. I also think Kings will give Suns a very hard battle because they are the best at passing the ball around. If our defenders don't have good communication skills, Suns' defense won't be able to contain Kings. Although, Kings is known to have trouble against athletic teams so Suns should definitely drive inside 75% of the time to destroy their defense.

Jimmy

 

[Joe Mama]

You could see last night against the grizzlies how the hand checking affects Steve Nash. When the referees were allowing Watson to get physical with Nash the Suns offense really struggled.

Joe Mama