I just want to get a feel for the Board. McCown or King

[Scott MS]

I dunno, I think maybe that if they see he really cares that much, and if he goes to work this week to improve on his mistakes, then I think it could still work. I would almost rather have a QB that cares too much rather than one who doesn't care at all.

I agree, I saw the clip and he's obviously emotional about the game and fells like he lost the game for the team. That's a lot different that some of our former players who didn't give a crap if they lost.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Chris,

So can you explain to me the 7 or so previous 1,000 yd seasons?

And can you explain again how bad Curtis Martin was last season when people were saying he was finished through the first five games - when I think someone handing the ball off to him was injured - yeah - I think his name was Pennington - but after he came back - Martin was the most productive back in the NFL - but that's probably just a coincidence.

 

[conraddobler]

I dunno, I think maybe that if they see he really cares that much, and if he goes to work this week to improve on his mistakes, then I think it could still work. I would almost rather have a QB that cares too much rather than one who doesn't care at all.

This wasn't like Couch who basically cried as in tantrum like crying this was jeez I stank and killed off my team.

The players know what kind of beating he has taken back there and if they don't respect that then they will never respect the guy anyway.

Emmitt can cry then anybody can cry. Sometimes stuff hurts a lot and it just means he cares he wasn't punking out or anything he was just deeply hurt mostly because he hurt his team.

He's just a kid who dosen't know enough not to cry on tv, heck having your NFL dream kicked all to hell isn't a fun life event then someone is there to interview you right after the ball shot.

 

[ajcardfan]

Yeah...here is the problem with him crying on the ASR. All his teammates and coaches will see it at some point and it is going to be damn near impossible for him to make this HIS team after that. He has to earn his teammates respect and the crying will not help that in any way. Sadly, he needs to put the stuff aside and wait until he gets home with the wife and then he can cry all night but doing it like that is going to really hurt his chances of maybe ever getting anotehr shot...even with another team.

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[Chris_Sanders]

So explain to me the 7 or so previous 1,000 yd seasons?

If you don't like the reality don't make an assumption.

The facts are that Curtis Martin rushed for 98 yards without Pennington as his QB. With Pennington as his QB he rushed for 920 yards. Of course that was over 13 games of a whopping 70 yards a game. Like I said...not dominating...just decent.

But the facts remain that Martin's output greatly increased with a good QB.

Let's take this further. Without Pennington last year Martin averaged 60 yards a game.

When Pennington came back he averaged 95 yards a game.

Again you can't constantly blitz a decent QB. They will make you pay. Someone is open when you do that. So you have to play base defense which allows for more running room.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This wasn't like Couch who basically cried as in tantrum like crying this was jeez I stank and killed off my team.

The players know what kind of beating he has taken back there and if they don't respect that then they will never respect the guy anyway.

Emmitt can cry then anybody can cry. Sometimes stuff hurts a lot and it just means he cares he wasn't punking out or anything he was just deeply hurt mostly because he hurt his team.

He's just a kid who dosen't know enough not to cry on tv, heck having your NFL dream kicked all to hell isn't a fun life event then someone is there to interview you right after the ball shot.

I just think it's a bad sign - read what Cubby wrote above - McCown's got one foot in the grave as far as I'm concerned and hell - I wrote that huge love letter about him saying we finally had our FRanchise QB int he aslt week of the preseason so it's not like I always had something against him. HOWEVER - maybe I need to take a little bit of my own advice - I've been expiudnign on the fact that there's so much negativity as far as our record is concerned and I believe it stems from people coming in with wayyy too high of expectations of this club - in hindsight - maybe my expectations of Josh were too high as well - but I just expected something - ANYTHING from him by this point . . .

 

[conraddobler]

If you don't like the reality don't make an assumption.

The facts are that Curtis Martin rushed for 98 yards without Pennington as his QB. With Pennington as his QB he rushed for 920 yards. Of course that was over 13 games of a whopping 70 yards a game. Like I said...not dominating...just decent.

But the facts remain that Martin's output greatly increased with a good QB.

Let's take this further. Without Pennington last year Martin averaged 60 yards a game.

When Pennington came back he averaged 95 yards a game.

Again you can't constantly blitz a decent QB. They will make you pay. Someone is open when you do that. So you have to play base defense which allows for more running room.

All you proved is that Pennington may indeed help Curtis Martin. You point is valid but Pennington is not playing behind this line. He would be dead by IMHO if he was but we will never know because Pennington plays for the Jets who have Pete Kendall as a guard and we have Spikes with a Clement kicker.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

All you proved is that Pennington may indeed help Curtis Martin. You point is valid but Pennington is not playing behind this line. He would be dead by IMHO if he was but we will never know because Pennington plays for the Jets who have Pete Kendall as a guard and we have Spikes with a Clement kicker.

Sure we agree here. I was just addressing the excuses for McCown's poor play. I just think you call a spade a spade.

 

[Cheesebeef]

All you proved is that Pennington may indeed help Curtis Martin. You point is valid but Pennington is not playing behind this line. He would be dead by IMHO if he was but we will never know because Pennington plays for the Jets who have Pete Kendall as a guard and we have Spikes with a Clement kicker.

that Jets line was getting Vinny killed before Pennington got in there. I think O-lines really do depend on who has the ball behind them - for instance - we couldn't run block worth a damn the first five games of the season last year and than viola - a running back with fresh legs comes in and our O-line actually is able to open some holes (at least at home). Same thing with QB sacks - remember in 1997 when we had Kent Graham at QB and we were sloing every game by some horrible play with no time left starting 1-7 - well, the sacks went up considerably once Plummer was put back there - same O-linemen, different QB it depends on who's back there as well as who's upfront. Hell - you could look as far as last year - in the six games preceding Josh's arrival as our starting QB - we gave up 13 total sacks - while in the last three games with Josh at the helm we gave up - wait - I just figured this out - 21 SACKS IN THREE GAMES? Granted the O-line ain't great - but that is a HUGE discrepancy - especially considering the Vikings - who were putrid last year on defense in the second half of the season got 8 sacks on Josh.

 

[conraddobler]

I just think it's a bad sign - read what Cubby wrote above - McCown's got one foot in the grave as far as I'm concerned and hell - I wrote that huge love letter about him saying we finally had our FRanchise QB int he aslt week of the preseason so it's not like I always had something against him. HOWEVER - maybe I need to take a little bit of my own advice - I've been expiudnign on the fact that there's so much negativity as far as our record is concerned and I believe it stems from people coming in with wayyy too high of expectations of this club - in hindsight - maybe my expectations of Josh were too high as well - but I just expected something - ANYTHING from him by this point . . .

Me too but Farve himself looked awful when he played for Atlanta that's why they traded him.

Heck I know what you are saying and this stuff stinks and in no way would I ever give him Jake Plummer time.

I just want him to get about 3 or 4 more games in against lesser defenses to get his confidence back a little or not what ever happens happens but we should just exhaust the guy as a possiblity this year cause next year it's for real.

We aren't going to the playoffs this year anyway but we can see who can play QB for next year and he needs the starts to see if he learns or just falls apart.

Not playing him the rest of the year would be stupid then someone else get's him for nothing and POSSIBLY only possibly turns him into the feel good story of the decade and I will be really peeved.

 

[conraddobler]

Just one final point on this before I hit the hay.

McCown did the best last year when his back was against the wall in his last game and in the last quarter.

He will either fight his way out of this or he won't. I think you have to give the dude at least one game to get back on the horse and see if he's a whimp or there might be something there.

I am all for switching QB's and I am all for benching one to hold them accountable, the point is to test them.

Shoot straight with the dude and see what he is made of. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Just one final point on this before I hit the hay.

McCown did the best last year when his back was against the wall in his last game and in the last quarter.

He will either fight his way out of this or he won't. I think you have to give the dude at least one game to get back on the horse and see if he's a whimp or there might be something there.

I am all for switching QB's and I am all for benching one to hold them accountable, the point is to test them.

Shoot straight with the dude and see what he is made of. Let the chips fall where they may.

For me - he gets a half - if we look like we have for the last three weeks for an entire half against a very suspect Saints D at home - and it's close and we have a shot to win - he can watch the game on his butt just like the rest of us.

 

[Redsz]

what the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in china -I don't know - maybe previously he played on a SUPER BOWL team in New England with Bill Parcells or then went ot a Jets team ALSO coached by Bill Parcells that went 12-4 and to the AFC Title game - then everyone said he started slowing down, Parcells left, Al Grho turned the Jets back into losers, they revamped the team with a new head coach, started Pennington after sitting him for two years and their offense has been very good ever since. What the hell point are you making with the above. People that don't watch football other than the Cardinals shouldn't try and talk about it because it makes them look as foolish as all those who rip on our team without having any knowledge of the subject.

The point that I was trying to make is that Chad Pennington was under less pressure in terms of trying to make plays because he had an 1,000 back behind him. Something Josh does not have. Which is affecting his perfromance.

And that Martin came in with several years of rushing for over 1,000 yds and that his performance didn't explode when taking hand offs from Pennington.

Also, there is no need for the personal attack or the sweeping assumptions about me. I come here to talk football not be called a fool because I disagree with your point of view.

If you don't like the reality don't make an assumption.

But the facts remain that Martin's output greatly increased with a good QB.

Let's take this further. Without Pennington last year Martin averaged 60 yards a game.

When Pennington came back he averaged 95 yards a game.

Again you can't constantly blitz a decent QB. They will make you pay. Someone is open when you do that. So you have to play base defense which allows for more running room.

Martin Rushed for: 1287, 1464, 1204 and 1513 yds with Vinny Testaverde as the QB from 98-01.

Martin Rushed for the most (1513 yds) when Testaverde had a QB rating of 75.3 which was Testaverdes second lowest rating with his time with the Jets.

And rushed for his second lowest (1287 yds) when Testaverde posted his highest QB rating of 101.6 with the Jets.

When Pennington started in 2002 Martin posted his lowest rushing total of his career with just over 1,000 yds.

So I can't agree with the point that Martin's performance is related to the quality of QB taking the snaps.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

When Pennington started in 2002 Martin posted his lowest rushing total of his career with just over 1,000 yds.

Pennington started only 12 games in 2002. Vinny started the first 3 (Vinny technically started 4 but he went 0-5 and was benched). I already gave you those single game breakdowns. Did you bother to delve or did you just post up career stats?

Pointing to prior years would be the equivalent of me pointing to Emmitt Smith's glory years compared to our current offense. Stick to the relevant subject.

In 2002 the Jets offensive line was in shambles...just like ours. Vinny suddenly looked very very old. They did a change up and boom the entire thing worked.

Now it is equally feasible that the Jets players had lost confidence in Vinny and quit on him after a 1-3 start. That IS what is happening with the Cardinal offense, it has been reported several times how his teammates have been taking their complaints with McCown to the coaches.

 

[Redsz]

Pennington started only 12 games in 2002. Vinny started the first 3 (Vinny technically started 4 but he went 0-5 and was benched). I already gave you those single game breakdowns. Did you bother to delve or did you just post up career stats?

I did not believe I needed to delve here. Because I thought I illustrated that Martins performance had no relation to how the QB performed.

Pointing to prior years would be the equivalent of me pointing to Emmitt Smith's glory years compared to our current offense. Stick to the relevant subject.

I was keeping it relevant. As you wrote: "But the facts remain that Martin's output greatly increased with a good QB." You did not state that it was Pennington who improved Martins out put. But rather just a good QB.

That's why it was relevant to point out that Martin had his best year in total yds rushing when Vinny posted one of his worst QB ratings. And that Martin had one of his lesser years when Vinny had one of his highest QB ratings of his career.

In 2002 the Jets offensive line was in shambles...just like ours. Vinny suddenly looked very very old. They did a change up and boom the entire thing worked.

Now it is equally feasible that the Jets players had lost confidence in Vinny and quit on him after a 1-3 start. That IS what is happening with the Cardinal offense, it has been reported several times how his teammates have been taking their complaints with McCown to the coaches.

Really? I have not seen these reports. The only thing close to what you are saying came from a website that has zero credibility in regards to reporting anything true.

Could you provide link(s) to these reports?

 

[SECTION 11]

I'm all for giving King a shot. Certainly couldn't hurt.


This_Guy is a Stinking Genious!!!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Really? I have not seen these reports. The only thing close to what you are saying came from a website that has zero credibility in regards to reporting anything true.

Could you provide link(s) to these reports?

It was reported on the radio broadcasts of the game during the game. The offensive players yelling at the coach about McCown's horrid decision making.

 

[black]

First I would like to say that you guys are great fans and thanks for having me here.



I voted for King. I like Josh but wins are what matter. Josh's last TD was against the Vikes last year. Not even in preseason till now is the offense responding to Josh. If Josh is going to be the franchise QB, he would have shown us by now. Sorry Josh, but King gets my vote.


But however in Josh's defense, the 0-line has stunk it up this year, and we can't even run the damm ball.

 

[az_cards_fan88]

You have to give McCown the start at least until the week after the bye. Who knows maybe after he was benched he'll get his head straight. Look at Warner, he got named the starter, played bad in the first game, got benched and came out the last two games looking pretty good.

I think King is a good QB who has gotten a bad wrap at times but just because we have 0 run game and a bad o-line you can't bench McCown. Think about how many times Plummer should have been benched but he stayed in the game and now look at him in Denver. He's got a good team around him and he finally looks like a good QB. It takes a little time. If we had a run game and a good o-line I would be all about taking him out.

I will say though if he continues to get pounded like he has been they have to take him out. Example, Patrick Ramsey the poor kid is horrified now whenever he see's a blitz. Spurrier probably ruined his career.

 

[john h]

King at least he hasn't fumbled in the redzone yet. His poise in the pocket impressed me also. I am officially off the Josh bandwagon. He needs to atlest sit some games out and calm his @ss down. He just looks so strange back there. Way to impatient, he did look alright in the second quarter. King was perfect back there to, got one sack but atleast held on to the ball. I have been waiting, and waiting, and waiting for a TD from Josh. But, I will wait no longer lets see what King can do. I thought everybody on the team looked better while he was back there. The Offense in whole has given up on McCown, and if something doesn't happen the Defense will to. Well thats my 2 cents.

King looked and performed like an NFL QB for his one quarter. This guy has played in big games on championship caliber teams. It show.

 

[kerouac9]

You have to give McCown the start at least until the week after the bye. Who knows maybe after he was benched he'll get his head straight. Look at Warner, he got named the starter, played bad in the first game, got benched and came out the last two games looking pretty good.

I think King is a good QB who has gotten a bad wrap at times but just because we have 0 run game and a bad o-line you can't bench McCown. Think about how many times Plummer should have been benched but he stayed in the game and now look at him in Denver. He's got a good team around him and he finally looks like a good QB. It takes a little time. If we had a run game and a good o-line I would be all about taking him out.

I will say though if he continues to get pounded like he has been they have to take him out. Example, Patrick Ramsey the poor kid is horrified now whenever he see's a blitz. Spurrier probably ruined his career.

Can we wait eight years for McCown to figure it out? I don't think we can. Rex Grossman nearly beat the Vikings in less prep time and similar starting experience to McCown.

I'm tired of hearing the old sawhorse about how bad the offensive line is. Are they the best in the NFL? No. Are they better than a team like the Chargers? Yes. Shaun King looked competitive behind the same offensive line. McCown isn't doing anything to make the front five look better. In fact, he's doing quite a bit to make them look worse. There's no pocket that can defend a fifteen-step dropback. When was the last time McCown stepped up into the pocket?

Thanks for playing, kid. There are a lot of jobs out there for former NFL QBs. Go sell insurance.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

throw mcclown in there some more. i want one of two things to happen:

either,

1 - he shows some flashes of learning and gives me hope, or

2 - continues to get his brains beaten out, makes bad decisions, and cries after every game, at which point i won't have to argue with any of you that we should draft a qb.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

throw mcclown in there some more. i want one of two things to happen:

either,

1 - he shows some flashes of learning and gives me hope, or

2 - continues to get his brains beaten out, makes bad decisions, and cries after every game, at which point i won't have to argue with any of you that we should draft a qb.

Some of us thought it was loooong overdue before this season and we should have drafted a QB this year!

 

[CaptTurbo]

I think King should start next week. McCown needs a break mentally. The sure sign he's lost his concentration is the way he has taken to these 15-20 yard dropbacks. You can't do that crap, you have to find a way to throw it away.

On the bright side, the offense, for the first time this season, moved the ball on several consecutive series in the 2nd half.

oh man that one play where he ran backwards then just pee'd his pants and crumpled to the ground made me laugh and cry at the same time!!!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Some of us thought it was loooong overdue before this season and we should have drafted a QB this year!

those "some of [you]" included me . . . check the past posts. just didn't want to do the whole "told ya so" crap . . .