i miss marion.

[Covert Rain]

The pure numbers may support your argument, but the fact that the Suns outrebound their opponents this year totally blows it out of the water.

It's not a fact the Suns outrebound their Opponents. The Suns have won 34 head to heads in rebounds and lost 31 (with 3 ties). That' winning only 50% of your rebounding matchups. That's horrible.

I think it's safe to say the Suns sucked last year and suck just as much this year in that department. That's why this team is in the bottom half of the league in rebounding again.

 

[green machine]

It's not a fact the Suns outrebound their Opponents. The Suns have won 34 head to heads in rebounds and lost 31 (with 3 ties). That' winning only 50% of your rebounding matchups.

I think it's safe to say that sucks and why this team is in the bottom half of the league in rebounding.

Out of curiosity, what were the numbers like pre-Shaq trade? I'm not saying the Suns are beasts on the boards, but I'd be the numbers would show they are much better than they were before the trade.

The Suns outrebound their opponents more than not, and I'd say losing Amare hasn't helped things this year.

Let's look at it this way. Are you one who agrees with the "Nash makes everyone around him better" argument? I don't know, but we'll try to apply it to Marion.

Marion's rebounding doesn't make anyone else better because he doesn't box out, doesn't keep anyone else from getting it - he just gets to it first.

A guy like Shaq or, really, anyone who boxes out, doesn't necessarily get the board for themselves, but makes sure the guy that they are boxing out doesn't get it either. Thus, taking at least one other player out of the play.

Marion didn't/doesn't do that. If he doesn't get it there is just as likely a chance that the guy he's responsible for does.

But, we'll never agree on this one so that's OK. Different opinions. I'm an admitted Marion "hater", but I'll stick with my beliefs and go from there.

 

[Covert Rain]

Out of curiosity, what were the numbers like pre-Shaq trade? I'm not saying the Suns are beasts on the boards, but I'd be the numbers would show they are much better than they were before the trade.

Last year there was a 12% increase in winning rebounding matchups (winning about 6 out 10 versus 5 out 10). So Shaq basically helped them win 1 more out of every 10 games which was slightly better. Then this year, that completely evaporated. Just like last year, I fault Amare's inconsistency. Pre-Shaq or Post-Shaq if Amare played up to his potential on the boards, this team would be a much better team on the boards.

Often in the post Shaq trade era, Shaq has been making up for Amare's lack of impact on the boards versus adding to it just like Marion did.

The Suns outrebound their opponents more than not, and I'd say losing Amare hasn't helped things this year.

Agree but it has not hurt them much either. Amare was disappearing every other night on his own.

A guy like Shaq or, really, anyone who boxes out, doesn't necessarily get the board for themselves, but makes sure the guy that they are boxing out doesn't get it either. Thus, taking at least one other player out of the play. .

Agree in theory that is true but the numbers bear out that boxing out or no boxing out, nobody is stepping up on rebounding. Meaning that even with Shaq boxing out, if Shaq is not getting the rebound, nobody else on the Suns is either. I think if you look at how bad the Suns are with giving up second chance points....that's very evident.

Time and time again, I would see Shaq box his guy out, only to have Amare's guy or someone else get the rebound because one of our other guys didn't do the same.

But, we'll never agree on this one so that's OK. Different opinions. I'm an admitted Marion "hater", but I'll stick with my beliefs and go from there.

Don't get me wrong. I still make that trade in a heartbeat because of the other things Shaq brings to this team. Mainly interior paint play. Plus, having Marion still on this team playing Amare at center would be even a bigger disaster IMO. I just was pointing out that Shaq has had very little impact on the overall rebounding side of things for whatever reason.

 

[pokerface]

Even if the Suns move in a new direction, I don't understand why some fans have to disparage what was good. Marion had a great career here in Phoenix. DA brought Phoenix four years of winning and playoff basketball. Now it seems many fans are ready to toss two time MVP Steve Nash in the dumpster as well. I can understand sometimes things need to change, but I believe those who have given much to the Suns should be respected.

Thats exactly right. Almost every player that has left gets smeared by the fans for one reason or another.

Marion didnt do anything that was so terrible that he should be despised from here on out. He played hard for the Suns every game and produced on a high level...thats trumps any perceived negative about the guy....unless you're petty.

 

[pokerface]

But, we'll never agree on this one so that's OK. Different opinions. I'm an admitted Marion "hater", but I'll stick with my beliefs and go from there.

Your hate made you blind to his accomplishments...thats too bad. He was special on the Suns team.

 

[Errntknght]

YJGS,

Not to mention udderly ridiculous

(utterly)
Its always dangerous to correct grammar and spelling on here... you're almost bound to make just as bad a mistake as the one you point out. In this case you outdid pokerface by a good bit! Not only is 'udderly' not a word, it's not even related to the word you intended, whereas 'seeked' is based on the correct root.

 

[binkar]

This is possibly the stupidest thread in ASFN history (probably not, but close). Stupid threads often lead to a string of stupid posts. Unfortunately there have been a lot of stupid, useless threads like this started lately.

 

[Errntknght]

This is possibly the stupidest thread in ASFN history (probably not, but close). Stupid threads often lead to a string of stupid posts. Unfortunately there have been a lot of stupid, useless threads like this started lately.

Just wait until you've been around longer!

 

[green machine]

Thats exactly right. Almost every player that has left gets smeared by the fans for one reason or another.

Marion didnt do anything that was so terrible that he should be despised from here on out. He played hard for the Suns every game and produced on a high level...thats trumps any perceived negative about the guy....unless you're petty.

If you want to stick with this statement when remembering his last half season with the Suns then you weren't watching the games.

 

[pokerface]

If you want to stick with this statement when remembering his last half season with the Suns then you weren't watching the games.

Oh last half of the season....pffft. What about the other 99% of the time he was here.


After all your posts I still don't understand your position on Marion....He wasnt a good player?...we were all duped? Everything he did was overrated? He has weaknesses? So what...he had fewer weaknesses than the vast majority of the players out there...easily.

 

[pokerface]

This is possibly the stupidest thread in ASFN history (probably not, but close). Stupid threads often lead to a string of stupid posts. Unfortunately there have been a lot of stupid, useless threads like this started lately.

Yeah and thank you for topping it off with this gem. You sure showed us.

 

[binkar]

Just wait until you've been around longer!

I have been around for awhile. I was here when everyone transitioned from azprosports.com. I have been a member since 2002. So although I have just recently began posting, I have suffered through many awful threads like this one.

 

[binkar]

Yeah and thank you for topping it off with this gem. You sure showed us.

Haha my intent was not to "show you" anything. I simply made a harmless comment and now pokerface comes to attack! Thatta boy! No need to be so bitter man.

 

[pokerface]

Haha my intent was not to "show you" anything. I simply made a harmless comment and now pokerface comes to attack! Thatta boy! No need to be so bitter man.

You join the thread with one comment basicly calling everyone stupid and you want applause? Are you hear to talk about Marion or just throw the word stupid around?

 

[binkar]

You join the thread with one comment basicly calling everyone stupid and you want applause? Are you hear to talk about Marion or just throw the word stupid around?

Comment back in the PM I sent you. I would rather not cause the forum to suffer through another one of your meaningless attempts to create animosity in the forum. It just annoys everyone and isn't the point of the forum.

P.S. I have already commented on Marion in the thread.

 

[Brianellsworth]

You join the thread with one comment BASICALLY calling everyone stupid and you want applause? Are you HERE to talk about Marion or just throw the word stupid around?

FTFY

 

[Brianellsworth]

Thats sounds like Amare to me

He averaged almost 20 ppg for his career....thats not bad for being "useless on offense without others"

Far as Marion being "overrated on defense"...Well, no one would ever accuse Amare of being overrated on defense now would they?...No one gives him credit for playing any D to begin with.


Why would you knock Marion for the very few things he wasnt when he probably was one of the most well rounded and consistant basketablll players the Suns ever had?

Are you just a hater? You're not going to make me explain what made Marion an allstar and a all around great basketabll player are you?




Marion hussled pretty much his whole career....his overall stats are proof of that. He's an over-acheiver if anything. If anyone "tanks" it would be Amare who gets disinterested and doesnt want to do things that a "big" is supposed to...(aka rebound & defend)





I did because Amare gets a pass because of his scoring prowness while lacking in almost every other area while Marion gets knocked for not being a "Kobe" kind of ball handler or shooter. If ppl knock Marion they have no business worshipping Amares' one dimensional game.

I have no idea what you're even talking about. You're knocking his rebounding?? For Marions height how many players had better numbers than him? Plus about his contract...I certainly do not think he has anything to apologize about there. Very few players had Marions overall statline....only Garnett comes to mind as being a better overall stat producer...for almost twice the money as Marion got.

Wow. Hard to please some fans I guess. Marion played his guts out for this team and produced like few others would ever hope to achieve. Makes me wonder what the standard is...or is supposed to be.

Well uhh...I watched Marion his whole career and I always thought he was a very good rebounder...I'm glad you set me straight on that one....didn't realize it was a weakness of his. I guess Garnett is the only good rebounder in the league...everyone else stinks.


Man you must really hate Amares guts for his pukey rebounding huh?

Anklebiting?

A fan comes in and said he misses Marion and right away comes a chorus of haters looking to diss anything they can about the guy. I try to interject what I think is some balance and say Marion had a lot more positives than negatives only to receive some rediculous comments and more hate. Why arn't some fans allowed to miss Marion without hearing a bunch of BS about it??


Anklebiting? Someone needs to check themsleves me thinks.

Its funny how any team could have stopped Marion and chose not to all these years. Amazing...

Barnes? When is his first allstar game?

I dont understand why any hate on Marion. Of course he seeked the most money he could get....most players would. Was Marion the perfect player?..no. Was he a very good all around player?...absolutely. Would the Suns want him back for the right price?...of course. So what is this discussion all about?

What is extreme or contrary about my position on Marion? I'm actually agreeing with the OP because there are things I miss about Marion also. It started as a pro-Marion thread if you hadn't noticed...anyone coming in downing Marion are the ones stirring things up. I'm extreme because I like and appreciate Marions game??

Yeah I really trolled by defending Marion...a multiple allstar who many fans would STILL want on thier team. For that you get into personal attacks on me and throw in some phony & sickening "better than thou" attitude. You say another poster is acting like a cop when thats all you've done on this thread yourself. Why dont you stick with the issue and talk about players and basketball instead of going down some low road. The only one anklebiting is YOU. You're the last poster that should be lecturing about board behavior.


And yes, your pictures are pointless, obnoxious, and junk up the thread. Instead of fighting people about it why dont you show an ounce of common sense and knock it off. We dont care about how many times you havnt done it but the fact that you're doing it now. What was the point of those pics anyway...more attacking?

Thats exactly right. Almost every player that has left gets smeared by the fans for one reason or another.

Marion didnt do anything that was so terrible that he should be despised from here on out. He played hard for the Suns every game and produced on a high level...thats trumps any perceived negative about the guy....unless you're petty.

Your hate made you blind to his accomplishments...thats too bad. He was special on the Suns team.

Oh last half of the season....pffft. What about the other 99% of the time he was here.


After all your posts I still don't understand your position on Marion....He wasnt a good player?...we were all duped? Everything he did was overrated? He has weaknesses? So what...he had fewer weaknesses than the vast majority of the players out there...easily.

Yeah and thank you for topping it off with this gem. You sure showed us.

You join the thread with one comment basicly calling everyone stupid and you want applause? Are you hear to talk about Marion or just throw the word stupid around?

Pokerface it is almost comical to go back and read all of your posts in this thread. It seems like you have quite the agenda and you have a lot of hate towards people who have a different opinion from you (you might want to talk to someone about this as it is unhealthy and can lead to worse things). You remind me of someone whose level of self esteem and ego is based off of their "status" on an internet message board. Whatever makes you feel good I guess. Anyways, Thank you for all of the insightful posts.

Are you friends with Andrew and Cody by chance?

 

[pokerface]

Pokerface it is almost comical to go back and read all of your posts in this thread. It seems like you have quite the agenda and you have a lot of hate towards people who have a different opinion from you (you might want to talk to someone about this as it is unhealthy and can lead to worse things). You remind me of someone whose level of self esteem and ego is based off of their "status" on an internet message board. Whatever makes you feel good I guess. Anyways, Thank you for all of the insightful posts.

Are you friends with Andrew and Cody by chance?

Yeah notice my posts....I talk about Marion. Other posters are talking about me....like you are right now.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the posts by Pokerface regarding Marion are pretty much right on target. As I recall Marion was a four time All-Star. This speaks for itself. I just don't understand why some fans are dogging Marion. The biggest negative concerning Marion was his max contract but this was not his fault. Also don't just say he whined because a lot of players whine. Personally I would like to see Marion back in a Phoenix uniform for a reasonable contract.

 

[AceP]

Marion is insane if he still wants max money. He'll end up like Sprewell: UNEMPLOYED.

What is the fair price for him? A 30 years old 12+8 foward. Too much flaw to play SF (no shot creation, no passing, terrible jump shooting). Too short to play PF in almost all teams beside GSW and us. Still a top defender for multiple position, but is he better than James Posey? Maybe he deserves better than MLE. 7-8M sounds fair to me.

Right now, Toronto is sitting at about 7 or 8 in lottery. If they want Amare for a package of their first round pick this summer, Marion (sign & trade within 8M), and contract filler, should work well for both sides.

But his agent is that notorious Fan Degan, who often finds a way to get his player overpaid. Just my guess, they will push for 10M per.

 

[green machine]

Oh last half of the season....pffft. What about the other 99% of the time he was here.


After all your posts I still don't understand your position on Marion....He wasnt a good player?...we were all duped? Everything he did was overrated? He has weaknesses? So what...he had fewer weaknesses than the vast majority of the players out there...easily.

You said he always played his ass off. That is not the case. Though he did the majority of his time here, he became bitter and a detriment to the team.

And no, not everything he did was overrated. But it got to the point where everyone kept saying how underrated he was when, in reality, he became overrated.

He was a role player. A very good one, mind you, but a role player. He just happened to be on a team where his role was very necessary.