I think the OL will be OK

[CaptTurbo]

But saying we've seen the best of him when he gains 5 yards is either a massive exaggeration or nonsense.?

yes he will gain more than 5 yards. How you jump from:

this is the best you'll ever see out of him to meaning he will never get more than 5 yards seems to be an english comprehension problem.

Saying that you have seen the best of what he has to offer means that you will never see him breaking long runs with superior speed on the basis that everyone was hoping/expecting. If he ever does 1 Id be surprised. He showed he had no vision and no speed 5 times now.

You will not see JJ all of a sudden learn vision and game speed. You have seen the best of what he has to offer.

If the oline happens to make a huge hole and he runs 20 yards untouched how does running more than 5 yards prove he has vision and speed?

 

[Russ Smith]

He can't do much worse, that is for sure.

True and that's my whole point with SWD, did he play well, no, does that mean we've seen the best of him, of course not.

Michael Bennett, who people wanted here, had 6 carries for -1 yards yesterday. Ciatrick Fason, who people here wanted, is so good he barely even played in a game where Bennett gained -1 yards, Moe Williams gained 15, Onterrio Smith was suspended for drugs etc. he's currently behind Bennett, Williams and Mewelde Moore on the depth chart and is only ahead of Smith because of Smiths' off field problems.

People are acting like we passed on Brown, Benson and Williams to take Arrington he was the 44th pick in the draft and I personally believe if he's given a chance to learn in the position and if the OL improves he'll do fine. I have no objection to Shipp starting next week when you are as bad as we were yesterday you have to make changes. But implying that was the best we'll ever get from Arrington is crazy IMHO that's my objection to SWD's comment.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I personally believe if he's given a chance to learn in the position and if the OL improves he'll do fine. .

And I disagree. Amazing. i was the only one who said Jones would be a bust after seeing him and how tentative he was after the first few games.

Its painfully obvious JJ has the same weaknesses.

1) 1 hand tackles him
2) PAINFULLY clear he has no vision
3) Has no game speed whatsoever.

You can have you opinions that God or Joe Pesci will create a miracle and make him "learn" this. I feel you either have the ability or you dont. he doesnt.

 

[Russ Smith]

yes he will gain more than 5 yards. How you jump from:

this is the best you'll ever see out of him to meaning he will never get more than 5 yards seems to be an english comprehension problem.

Saying that you have seen the best of what he has to offer means that you will never see him breaking long runs with superior speed on the basis that everyone was hoping/expecting. If he ever does 1 Id be surprised. He showed he had no vision and no speed 5 times now.

You will not see JJ all of a sudden learn vision and game speed. You have seen the best of what he has to offer.

If the oline happens to make a huge hole and he runs 20 yards untouched how does running more than 5 yards prove he has vision and speed?

So you're admitting he will do better than 5 yards in a game which is all I asked.

Young RB's often have problems with vision, They've got a million things in their head and they're being told be decisive, don't dance, so they make one cut and go. he lost yards on 3 of his 8 carries yesterday and in every case he was hit just after getting the ball, I'm not sure what has to do with vision or game speed you can't make people miss BEFORE you have the ball.

Arrington is not as fast as Bennett or Smith(robert) in their prime, if people are expecting that they're not going to see it. But he is fast. Wolfley said on the 12 yard run yesterday thats' the speed and explosion we all saw in camp, so either Wolfley is a homer or they've all seen the speed. But he needs a hole to show it unless you want LeShon johnson running up the back of his linemen speed?

But i do like how you've set yourself up, every long run he gets will be due to there being a huge hole, so for him to ever prove you wrong he essentially has to do what Adrian Peterson did saturday break a tackle in the backfield, run a guy over at the LOS, and then outrun everyone for a long TD. And we all know that sort of run is pretty common in the NFL.

Most long runs in the NFL have huge holes, watch Cadillac's 70+ run yesterday the hole was big, he lost his footing or they would have never been close to him, he had time to stumble, regain his footing, and still score the hole was so big.

 

[clif]

True and that's my whole point with SWD, did he play well, no, does that mean we've seen the best of him, of course not.

Michael Bennett, who people wanted here, had 6 carries for -1 yards yesterday. Ciatrick Fason, who people here wanted, is so good he barely even played in a game where Bennett gained -1 yards, Moe Williams gained 15, Onterrio Smith was suspended for drugs etc. he's currently behind Bennett, Williams and Mewelde Moore on the depth chart and is only ahead of Smith because of Smiths' off field problems.

People are acting like we passed on Brown, Benson and Williams to take Arrington he was the 44th pick in the draft and I personally believe if he's given a chance to learn in the position and if the OL improves he'll do fine. I have no objection to Shipp starting next week when you are as bad as we were yesterday you have to make changes. But implying that was the best we'll ever get from Arrington is crazy IMHO that's my objection to SWD's comment.

Russ there is no point in arguing with SWD's complete overreaction.

 

[CaptTurbo]

But he is fast. Wolfley said on the 12 yard run yesterday thats' the speed and explosion we all saw in camp, so either Wolfley is a homer or they've all seen the speed. But he needs a hole to show it unless you want LeShon johnson running up the back of his linemen speed?
.

Take a look at the pic posted on that play. You could have ran for more than 12 yards.

Keep on wishing Russ. you want to ignore what is painfully easy to see thats fine. I'm sure you did it with Jones and McElroy too.

so how bout my bet that Arrington will fade away into NFL nothingness? We can come up with some easy parameters.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

If, after the Oline gives JJ a crack at an opportunity to reach the second level, we'll have something to discuss. You may be right... but, right now... there simply is not enough "video" evidence to make the case for your sweeping endictment of JJ without factoring in the dismal Oline play.

Sound reasonable to you?

Bingo! You are are all over this one. JJ didnt have any holes to run.

 

[BACH]

True and that's my whole point with SWD, did he play well, no, does that mean we've seen the best of him, of course not.

Michael Bennett, who people wanted here, had 6 carries for -1 yards yesterday. Ciatrick Fason, who people here wanted, is so good he barely even played in a game where Bennett gained -1 yards, Moe Williams gained 15, Onterrio Smith was suspended for drugs etc. he's currently behind Bennett, Williams and Mewelde Moore on the depth chart and is only ahead of Smith because of Smiths' off field problems.

People are acting like we passed on Brown, Benson and Williams to take Arrington he was the 44th pick in the draft and I personally believe if he's given a chance to learn in the position and if the OL improves he'll do fine. I have no objection to Shipp starting next week when you are as bad as we were yesterday you have to make changes. But implying that was the best we'll ever get from Arrington is crazy IMHO that's my objection to SWD's comment.

It's way too early to give up on JJ.
Portis (who is a very similar runner) had the exact same problems in his rookie year as JJ showed us yesterday. He didn't start until game 4 or 5.

 

[Russ Smith]

And I disagree. Amazing. i was the only one who said Jones would be a bust after seeing him and how tentative he was after the first few games.

Its painfully obvious JJ has the same weaknesses.

1) 1 hand tackles him
2) PAINFULLY clear he has no vision
3) Has no game speed whatsoever.

You can have you opinions that God or Joe Pesci will create a miracle and make him "learn" this. I feel you either have the ability or you dont. he doesnt.

Define bust I don't think the average NFL gm would call Jones a bust now. He was a bust because we took him so high in the draft, ARrington was a 2nd rounder the expectations on him are different. Jones has quietly become a pretty solid NFL Rb, great no, worth where we picked him, no but bust, only by draft status he's done just fine for Chicago.

I don't see how you can question vision when the guy had 8 carries in the whole game and 3 of them he was hit in the backfield after getting the ball. THat's 5 runs where he had a chance to see anything before he got hit.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Define bust I don't think the average NFL gm would call Jones a bust now. He was a bust because we took him so high in the draft, ARrington was a 2nd rounder the expectations on him are different. Jones has quietly become a pretty solid NFL Rb, great no, worth where we picked him, no but bust, only by draft status he's done just fine for Chicago.

I don't see how you can question vision when the guy had 8 carries in the whole game and 3 of them he was hit in the backfield after getting the ball. THat's 5 runs where he had a chance to see anything before he got hit.

I dont believe preseason is as worthless as people think. And I think college play is possibly the most overated aspect in football.

We could simply say if JJ is not asked to resign or extend that he would be considered a bust.

 

[Pariah]

He didn't start until game 4 or 5.

And I think that's what a lot of us would like to see with Arrington--him riding the pine until the light comes on.

 

[kerouac9]

Define bust I don't think the average NFL gm would call Jones a bust now. He was a bust because we took him so high in the draft, ARrington was a 2nd rounder the expectations on him are different. Jones has quietly become a pretty solid NFL Rb, great no, worth where we picked him, no but bust, only by draft status he's done just fine for Chicago.

I don't see how you can question vision when the guy had 8 carries in the whole game and 3 of them he was hit in the backfield after getting the ball. THat's 5 runs where he had a chance to see anything before he got hit.

I'm not worried about his speed. Raw speed from an RB is overrated, and I think that J.J. has enough burst to get to the line and through the line whenever the holes do begin to form.

What I do worry about is J.J.'s leg strength. He doesn't seem thick enough in the legs and on the backside, which is something that you usually do see in the better speed backs. It allows them to shrug off arm tackles as they whip by slower d-linemen. J.J. looks like he needs more junk in the trunk if he's going to be successful.

I'm sure that this will change has he spends more time with professional conditioning and everything, but it's been a concern of mine since I saw him debut in the preseason.

 

[earthsci]

i was the only one who said Jones would be a bust after seeing him and how tentative he was after the first few games.

Now you are just talking out of your ass. You weren't even registered on this board when he was a Cardinal.

 

[Russ Smith]

Take a look at the pic posted on that play. You could have ran for more than 12 yards.

Keep on wishing Russ. you want to ignore what is painfully easy to see thats fine. I'm sure you did it with Jones and McElroy too.

so how bout my bet that Arrington will fade away into NFL nothingness? We can come up with some easy parameters.

No you can't because you can only see 8 defenders on that play and we have no way of knowing if Fitz is going to make his block or not. The RB doesn't get the view from a blimp either he has to make a decision on the run and he did. He hit the hole and made one move, maybe if he runs wide he gets more, maybe he doesn't.

Again define the parameters. I don't think JOnes is in NFL nothingness, apparently you do, so we have to agree on that sort of stuff if we're going to be able to bet. I'm not going to make a bet that allows you to determine if someone is a bust or not based solely on your opinion that's not a bet, thats me giving you money because I'm too dumb to get verifiable parameters.

 

[kerouac9]

And I think that's what a lot of us would like to see with Arrington--him riding the pine until the light comes on.

How's that going to happen if he's riding the pine, though? Do you think that it'll suddenly happen after he's been listening on the headphones for a month? How'd that work out for Josh McCown.

This is the weakest of all the arguements for not starting J.J.

 

[Pariah]

How's that going to happen if he's riding the pine, though?

How'd it happen for Portis?

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm not worried about his speed. Raw speed from an RB is overrated, and I think that J.J. has enough burst to get to the line and through the line whenever the holes do begin to form.

What I do worry about is J.J.'s leg strength. He doesn't seem thick enough in the legs and on the backside, which is something that you usually do see in the better speed backs. It allows them to shrug off arm tackles as they whip by slower d-linemen. J.J. looks like he needs more junk in the trunk if he's going to be successful.

I'm sure that this will change has he spends more time with professional conditioning and everything, but it's been a concern of mine since I saw him debut in the preseason.

JJ has actually slimmed down he was about 220 his first year at Cal.He lost weight because TEdford wanted him to be able to be a bigger factor on pass plays, and to be quicker. Ironically they discovered Marshawn Lynch was so good as a receiver they'd often give JJ a rest on passing plays and bring in Lynch. I think JJ said he lost about 10 pounds between his junior and senior year to get quicker.

He's never going to be like Jacobs but at Cal he was exceptional between the tackles and getting outside. We'll see.

 

[kerouac9]

JJ has actually slimmed down he was about 220 his first year at Cal.He lost weight because TEdford wanted him to be able to be a bigger factor on pass plays, and to be quicker. Ironically they discovered Marshawn Lynch was so good as a receiver they'd often give JJ a rest on passing plays and bring in Lynch. I think JJ said he lost about 10 pounds between his junior and senior year to get quicker.

He's never going to be like Jacobs but at Cal he was exceptional between the tackles and getting outside. We'll see.

Yeah, I was watching the highlights from his Cal career early in the game, and he was breaking some tackles. But guys in the NFL are bigger and stronger, and J.J. needs to respond accordingly if he's going to be an effective starter and not just a change-of-pace player. That being said, I still think he's a better option right now than Shipp, who still can't find the end zone and looked very slow getting to the line.

Right now, it doesn't seem that J.J. has the leg drive to get that extra yard after the hit or fight his way through the pile in any meaningful way, and that has to be a concern...

 

[kerouac9]

How'd it happen for Portis?

I don't know; I guess it probably has something to do with playing in Denver, where everyone succeeds as soon as they're plugged into the lineup (i.e., Bell, Tatum). I love how eager y'all are to cite utter outliers.

Honestly, it would seem to me that it would be easier for J.J. to learn by watching his own film and seeing what decisions he should have made. He's not going to learn anything on the sideline or from watching Marcel's carries on film...

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Kevin Jones was struggling at first last year.He also had some injuries but he was still adjusting to the NFL.Come the last 6-7 games he was as good as anyone at running the ball.That will come for JJ and the OL because they need to get their timing together alsne NFL game won't make or break JJ.

 

[joeshmo]

Just a little something concerning the one play where Strahan blew up Ross with a bull rush. For the most part of the game Ross did a pretty good job on him but Strahan has that bull rush move down like a science and makes pro bowlers look silly with it. If executed correctly it is unstopable. Strahan is the master at getting leverage and if you have leverage a 200 lb guy can bull rush a 350 lb man. He gets his hands inside of the OL hands right under his shoulder pads and its all over.

When I used to coach pop warner I would show film of that move to my DE's. If they did it right, it worked every time.

 

[Russ Smith]

How'd it happen for Portis?

Portis had 9 carries in his first 2 games, 26 in the next 2 including over 100 yards in game 3 while not starting. He didn't start the first 4 weeks and then started the last 12. If our OL was as good as Denver's at running the ball I don't think we'd even be having this debate I don't think it would matter who we put back there.

What's interesting, last time I checked Bronco fans were blasting Tatum bell for the very same issues, can't blitz pickup, can't run between the tackles, goes down too easily. ANd he averaged 5.3 YPC last year in their system.

I don't expect Green to bench JJ after 8 carries but the key is we gotta get a run game going somehow and I don't really care how we do it or who we start. I just think the people labelling JJ a bust this early in the game are simply rushing to judgement(and I'm not including you in that group Pariah).

 

[CaptTurbo]

Again define the parameters. I don't think JOnes is in NFL nothingness, apparently you do, so we have to agree on that sort of stuff if we're going to be able to bet. I'm not going to make a bet that allows you to determine if someone is a bust or not based solely on your opinion that's not a bet, thats me giving you money because I'm too dumb to get verifiable parameters.

Already did. Jones was a bust. Team spent a lot of cash on him and had to let him go. If you get let go by the team that drafted you, you are a bust for that team. Im saying JJ will bust for the cards. You obviously do not think that.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Now you are just talking out of your ass. You weren't even registered on this board when he was a Cardinal.

SORRY, it was the AOL board where many of us were on it.

Want to keep having some sort of wet dream that JJ "wll wake up" just like McCown then have a field day. Dont bother blowing smoke up my ass it wont work.

 

[Russ Smith]

I dont believe preseason is as worthless as people think. And I think college play is possibly the most overated aspect in football.

We could simply say if JJ is not asked to resign or extend that he would be considered a bust.

That's not fading away in NFL oblivion. What if the Cards end up in a year or 2 with a shot at Adrian Peterson or Marshawn Lynch or DeAngelo Williams, they'd be crazy to pass on them, would that make JJ a bust, to you yes, to whatever NFL team he'd wind up on no.