If Kolb fails someone better be held accountable this offseason

[az jam]

If Kolb ends up getting cut (a scenario I have a difficult time imagining, but there's still three weeks to come, and it wasn't until the end of August we started hearing these things about Leinart), someone should lose their job. If Kolb just spends a season holding a clip board and gets 150 attempts scattered over the course of an otherwise successful season (I think 8-8 against this schedule would be a success), then just part ways and own up to the mistake.

I don't see them cutting him. There is no reason to as his bonus has already been paid. They would do that in the off-season. He might start as the backup but still see plenty of action. IMO whoever is named the starter will be on a short chain.

I think an 8 & 8 record is pretty optimistic.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't see them cutting him. There is no reason to as his bonus has already been paid. They would do that in the off-season. He might start as the backup but still see plenty of action. IMO whoever is named the starter will be on a short chain.

I think an 8 & 8 record is pretty optimistic.

I don't necessarily see them cutting him, either, but I think it's within the realm of possibility. What relevance is he going to have as a $9 million back up quarterback? Is the team going to believe in him at all? What is going to be the distraction caused by the media if they're cutting to him on the bench every time the offense goes three-and-out?

Is his value as a back up quarterback greater than getting the distraction of him being #2 to a former fifth-round pick from Fordham out of the way before the season starts?

 

[Goldfield]

Although I think someone should be fired for the everlasting horible OLine we field every year.

 

[Russ Smith]

If you find yourself hungry but you're in the bathroom, you dont eat the soap because its the best option available. You go looking for something better, even if it means you have to wait a bit.

They backed themselves into a corner because of previous QB mistakes and because they ignored the problem in the 2011 draft (according to some because they had already stupidly committed to trading for Kolb). I cant give them a pat on the back and a "good effort", for making the worst of a bad situation... that they put themselves in.

Not disagreeing with you on Kolb he just hasn't done it but who exactly would you have made the QB last year?

You would have gone into the season with Skelton, Bartel and who?

Orton was 1-4 wtih Denver when he got benched, did ok in KC nothing special.

Hasselbeck had a decent year but given his history of injuries and our OL it's reasonable to guess he wouldn't have been as good here. Bulger washed up, McNabb ick.

I agree we overpaid for Kolb that's clear now and probably was then. I didn't particularly care because I don't see any obvious other moves we didn't make because of Kolb's contract. Losing the 2nd rounder looks bad now but I don't think we would have signed this OL or that pass rusher if not for Kolb's contract.

It's going horribly wrong but I think if the cards don't get Kolb we might not have Larry around. I don't think Larry was going to sign a new deal here if we told him Skelton and Bartel and ? were the QB's.

 

[Josh007]

week #2 of preseason against the Raiders...

Could this game end in a 0 - 0 tie? Doubtful!! It shouldn't matter who's under center throw the ball to Fitz! He's a beast! I'd like to think that Fitz could make the kid who's playing QB at Arcadia High School look like an NFL All Star! Just throw him the damn ball!

 

[desertdawg]

Could this game end in a 0 - 0 tie? Doubtful!! It shouldn't matter who's under center throw the ball to Fitz! He's a beast! I'd like to think that Fitz could make the kid who's playing QB at Arcadia High School look like an NFL All Star! Just throw him the damn ball!

That's exactly what Harbaugh wants us to do, he just puts 3 defenders on Larry and waits for our QBs to stink it up. We need 2 tight ends in there if you want to get the ball to Larry, we need the rookie receiver to step up and we need to run the damn ball if we want to get it to Larry.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

I would fire Grimm...

Grimm= Mean Joe Green.

 

[Phrazbit]

Not disagreeing with you on Kolb he just hasn't done it but who exactly would you have made the QB last year?

You would have gone into the season with Skelton, Bartel and who?

Orton was 1-4 wtih Denver when he got benched, did ok in KC nothing special.

Hasselbeck had a decent year but given his history of injuries and our OL it's reasonable to guess he wouldn't have been as good here. Bulger washed up, McNabb ick.

I agree we overpaid for Kolb that's clear now and probably was then. I didn't particularly care because I don't see any obvious other moves we didn't make because of Kolb's contract. Losing the 2nd rounder looks bad now but I don't think we would have signed this OL or that pass rusher if not for Kolb's contract.

It's going horribly wrong but I think if the cards don't get Kolb we might not have Larry around. I don't think Larry was going to sign a new deal here if we told him Skelton and Bartel and ? were the QB's.

All those other options certainly wouldn't have been worse than Kolb, and all of them would have cost significantly less.

I think the questions about Larry's contract are debatable. Obviously it cant be proven either way, but I have a really hard time believing he walks away from all that money.

 

[joeshmo]

Heads may have already rolled.

The guy responsible for grading current NFL players for possible free agent pick-ups and trades was already fired and replaced by, Jason Licht our new Director of Pro Player Personnel. Other changes included giving Quentin Harris more responsibility as Assistant director, Pro Personnel. We gave Keim a new title and more responsibility which would seem to coincide with what the talking heads are saying as Graves moving more towards business decisions then football ones. We did some things in the scouting department, saw some guys get changed out and saw the department grow. Last year we had 7 scouts, this year we have 8 plus an assistant(Josh Scobey). Not to mention the change in cap managers, actually hiring an accountant this time instead of a TV segment producer.

I don't think people realize just how many changes happened in the scouting and player personnel departments this past offseason. The failure of recent free agent acquisitions and the multitude of having to get guys to restructure or take cuts after only one year of service is most likely a huge reason for that.

 

[Russ Smith]

All those other options certainly wouldn't have been worse than Kolb, and all of them would have cost significantly less.

I think the questions about Larry's contract are debatable. Obviously it cant be proven either way, but I have a really hard time believing he walks away from all that money.

Fair enough. Again Kolb's contract doesn't bother me because I don't know of any players we didn't get because of it. When I complain about overpaying someone it's because it caused us to lose out on someone else(like Plummer's deal in 98 did). We never spend to the top of the cap so I don't think overpaying Kolb cost us someone else.

What I do think is accurate is where you have suggested maybe we knew we were getting Kolb and didn't try to draft someone else. Again I'd take Peterson over anybody in the draft we could have had(Newton was gone) but if we never considered drafting a QB in the first round because of Kolb that makes the Kolb trade look worse.

That's why for example I'm mad about DeCastro this year. We apparently decided that signing Adam Snyder fixed our OL so we apparently didn't consider moving back and taking DeCastro. I get that we had Floyd as the BPA, I didn't like the pick because of his character issues but I get he's a talented WR. I also get that BPA isn't always perfect, sometimes if a potentially great player is there at a position you NEED, you take him.

I'm a big Stanford follower and I'm actually hoping somewhat that DeCastro struggles so it will bug me less. Thinking Snyder solved that problem impacted the draft this year. If the same thinking with Kolb impacted it last year that would be disturbing.

I don't know on Larry I do know it was being reported that larry had a hand in us getting Kolb. True or not I have no idea.

 

[REDRUMRUNNER]

This whole thread is based on a panic move by our FO and coaching staff that was created by them. In 2010 we moved up in the 5th round to draft Skelton. We had Anderson, Leinart, Skelton and Max Hall in camp. We released Matt, and after 4.5 games decided that Max Hall should start, despite having a rookie who outplayed him in camp. This was in my mind a publicity stunt, the organization had allot of bad press in the off season and may have been afraid of loosing ticket sales. Thus they started Hall, the local boy who stunk. After 3.5 games of wathcing him throw the ball to the opposing team more than his own we went back to Anderson and continued to suck. So while Skelton has not been great, what would he be like if he had been given the reigns over Hall, anyone think we would be worse. He seems to be a mature smart kid who could have used those additional seven games. Had we done this we would have had a better idea what he was like under live fire. This may have prevented the panic move of trading for and signing a young unproven QB who never got an off season. This is why a player is called a "veteran" they can generally come in and do better that a guy who had nothing to go on.

Thus if Kolb fails then we need someone to get the ax, who is a good question.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Heads may have already rolled.

The guy responsible for grading current NFL players for possible free agent pick-ups and trades was already fired and replaced by, Jason Licht our new Director of Pro Player Personnel. Other changes included giving Quentin Harris more responsibility as Assistant director, Pro Personnel. We gave Keim a new title and more responsibility which would seem to coincide with what the talking heads are saying as Graves moving more towards business decisions then football ones. We did some things in the scouting department, saw some guys get changed out and saw the department grow. Last year we had 7 scouts, this year we have 8 plus an assistant(Josh Scobey). Not to mention the change in cap managers, actually hiring an accountant this time instead of a TV segment producer.

I don't think people realize just how many changes happened in the scouting and player personnel departments this past offseason. The failure of recent free agent acquisitions and the multitude of having to get guys to restructure or take cuts after only one year of service is most likely a huge reason for that.

Voice of reason.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Heads may have already rolled.

The guy responsible for grading current NFL players for possible free agent pick-ups and trades was already fired and replaced by, Jason Licht our new Director of Pro Player Personnel. Other changes included giving Quentin Harris more responsibility as Assistant director, Pro Personnel. We gave Keim a new title and more responsibility which would seem to coincide with what the talking heads are saying as Graves moving more towards business decisions then football ones. We did some things in the scouting department, saw some guys get changed out and saw the department grow. Last year we had 7 scouts, this year we have 8 plus an assistant(Josh Scobey). Not to mention the change in cap managers, actually hiring an accountant this time instead of a TV segment producer.

I don't think people realize just how many changes happened in the scouting and player personnel departments this past offseason. The failure of recent free agent acquisitions and the multitude of having to get guys to restructure or take cuts after only one year of service is most likely a huge reason for that.

Thank you...

Maybe a few will put down their pitch forks.

 

[JeffGollin]

While it wouldn't be shocking if a coach or FO official who made a key personnel mistake was fired for it, there's another school of thought that says "keep the person if he or she is good at other things*. Just take any future personnel recommendations from that person with a grain of salt."

*It's quite possible that a individual who's a genius evaluating LB's or RB's might suck at evaluating QB's.

I also think Duck has a point about "group think." (It's said that "a camel is a horse created by a committee.")

 

[kerouac9]

Heads may have already rolled.

The guy responsible for grading current NFL players for possible free agent pick-ups and trades was already fired and replaced by, Jason Licht our new Director of Pro Player Personnel. Other changes included giving Quentin Harris more responsibility as Assistant director, Pro Personnel. We gave Keim a new title and more responsibility which would seem to coincide with what the talking heads are saying as Graves moving more towards business decisions then football ones. We did some things in the scouting department, saw some guys get changed out and saw the department grow. Last year we had 7 scouts, this year we have 8 plus an assistant(Josh Scobey). Not to mention the change in cap managers, actually hiring an accountant this time instead of a TV segment producer.

I don't think people realize just how many changes happened in the scouting and player personnel departments this past offseason. The failure of recent free agent acquisitions and the multitude of having to get guys to restructure or take cuts after only one year of service is most likely a huge reason for that.

I'm with you, but that's super-unsatisfying. Does anyone legitimately think that the Director of Pro Personnel was the final authority on what was perhaps the number one personnel decision in the entire NFL last offseason?

I think the flurry of restructures in the wake of the cap guy's firing is pretty damning evidence that he may not have been incredibly good at his job. That we re-structured Kolb to make it more expensive to cut him is embarrassing.

But the most important position in sports probably shouldn't be delegated to the same guy who's responsible for making sure that William Powell is ready for camp every August.

 

[Duckjake]

Is William Powell related to Nate Poole and Pogo Tagafu?

 

[TRW]

If the QB situation remains dismal this season, I think the Cardinals need to hold Whisenhunt's feet to the fire and FORCE him to hire an Offensive Coordinator to implement and TOTALLY run the offense. He should oversee the entire football team and not run the offense. Not sure who may be available or what they could find but it should be someone with a track record of developing young QB's.

Tell Whisenhunt to take it or leave it and if he leaves it promote Horton with the same caveat. Got to get someone who can put in a gameplan that consistently works. Not to mention someone who can better judge QB talent than what we have seen the last couple of seasons.

Enough is enough of this coach's "system" that needs a HOF QB to run it.

Not going to happen but that's what I would like to see.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Somebody already stole my Cutting Larry Fitzgerald joke so I'll make another one.

Let's fire Wiz and rehire Denny Green. He sure was great at picking QBs. Just like Tobin, and Mac, and Buddy and......

 

[Arizona's Finest]

If the QB situation remains dismal this season, I think the Cardinals need to hold Whisenhunt's feet to the fire and FORCE him to hire an Offensive Coordinator to implement and TOTALLY run the offense. He should oversee the entire football team and not run the offense. Not sure who may be available or what they could find but it should be someone with a track record of developing young QB's.

Tell Whisenhunt to take it or leave it and if he leaves it promote Horton with the same caveat. Got to get someone who can put in a gameplan that consistently works. Not to mention someone who can better judge QB talent than what we have seen the last couple of seasons.

Enough is enough of this coach's "system" that needs a HOF QB to run it.

Not going to happen but that's what I would like to see.

This seems a bit extreme but I agree Wizs "system" seems to be a little overly complex based on what we have seen with everyone besides Warner. Can't he dumb it down just a bit?

 

[Catfish]

That's the crux of the problem. No one person has final say in all personnel matters. It's a process of consensus, and if you're looking to build consensus, then you're working in an environment where top-line players are compromises like Daryn College and Adam Snyder, and the guys who get sponsorship from the staff are people like Brandon Keith.

You'll hit a lot more singles and doubles, but if no one can stake their reputation or job on a guy, it's difficult to hit grand slams. Mac and Keim swung hard on Anquan Boldin, and it was a home run. Green put everything into Larry Fitzgerald.

There was a lack of consensus on Adrian Peterson, so we settled on Levi Brown.

To the OP, I think that the results of the season matter. If Kolb fails but we got 8-8 against what I consider a difficult schedule, then it's a learning experience. If Kolb fails and we go 5-11, I think it should cost someone their job.

But who are you going to fire? Whis? Grimm? We fired the QB coach last year. Graves? IMO, Mike Bidwill probably was the ultimate decider on the Kolb deal. Maybe he holds the main guy talking in his ear responsible.

K-9, If I recall correctly, Kiem now holds the title of Chief Scout and Vice President of Player Personnel. Unless that is merely a window dressing for a title, then he should at least trump Whiz and Graves when it comes to personnel selection now. I would guess that his spot on the hierarchy chart is right under, (and reportable to), Michael. Does anyone know for sure how the FO and Staff stack up in the organizational chart? (Maybe even the Cardinals don't know) !!!!!

Anyway it probably doesn't matter, because it seems that we select based on whomever it is that has Michael's ear at the time we are on the clock.

 

[Stout]

No, they should have addressed the problem earlier. They put themselves in an awful spot by ignoring the QB position. Derek Anderson? Max Hall? A 5th round pick? Not taking a QB in the 2011 draft, especially when Mallet slipped to the 3rd was inexcusable.

This isnt hindsight, they had absolutely backed themselves into a corner coming out of the lock out and everyone knew it. And even then Kolb was not necessarily the best, or even a good, solution. If the "top QB on the market" (which was debatable even at the time), does not qualify as a top... 15... 20 QB in the league then should you pretend he is? NO! They went and got a mediocre QB (at best) and paid him like a pro-bowler, gave up a lot of good trade value.

It was the worst thing they could have done. They went and made a big time commitment to a bad player. After this year, when he gets inevitably cut, we will be entering our 4th off season since Warner retired and they still will have not brought in a realistic solution at QB. Its pathetic. I dont care if they "tired" and selected the best turd on a platter at one point.

Bingo. I wanted him in the 2nd, and threads will back up how much I wanted us to draft him.

 

[CtCardinals78]

If its just screwing up the Kolb deal, fine I can live with that, but let's be honest this regime has had a lot more misses than hit. The two playoff years were amazing and I give Whisenhunt and company all the credit in the world for the '08 and '09 seasons.

As nice as the Super Bowl run was its hard to dismiss:

Levi over AP
Trading up to get Alan Branch
The failure to develop Leinart
The Leinart/Warner dual QB system
Cutting Leinart a week before the season start
Failure to address the Oline adequately
Failure to adequately develo p talent to their full potential Dan Williams, DRC, Levi Brown, Alan Branch just to name a few
The DA/Max Hall/Bartel experiment
Trading a second round pick and DRC for Kolb.


This years record should determine Whisenhunt's fate. If Kolb is not the starter and the Cards go at least 8-8 great. Success. Draft a QB in the first round next year and develop him and let Wiz finish his contract before determining whether or not to re-up his contract after 2013.

If Whisenhunt goes 6-10 or worse the Cardinals need to cut him loose after seasons end and bring in a new HC or preferably promote Ray Horton let him pick his QB in the draft and develop him as he wishes.

Either way there are way too many hands in this cookie jar and it's obvious people are doing way too much. Whisenhunt needs to relinquish all control of the office and stay out of player personnel decisions. I am a huge Michael Bidwill fan, but I prefer owners stay out of picking players. That's what good GMs and scouting departments are for.

This is going to be a big learning year for the Cardinals and how they handle the 2013 draft and offseason will determine how quickly this all gets turned around.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Bingo. I wanted him in the 2nd, and threads will back up how much I wanted us to draft him.

Only issue is -- Whisenhunt has proven time and time again that he can't develop QB's.

 

[Russ Smith]

Mallet? Have people forgotten why he went where he did?

The Cards typically don't pick kids who did what he did.

 

[Phrazbit]

Mallet? Have people forgotten why he went where he did?

The Cards typically don't pick kids who did what he did.

Are you being sarcastic? He got caught drunk on the town once... it sure didnt stop the Cardinals from drafting Floyd.

If a dude is a repeat bonehead its a big concern, but a college kid with one public intoxication offense on his record and nothing else? I wouldnt sweat it.

And he was all the way down to the 3rd round! It was a very little risk and potentially gargantuan reward to take him right there. Furthermore our QB situation was (and still is) arguably the worst in the league at the time, to pass on a potential blue chip prospect that falls into your lap in the 3rd round is completely inexcusable.