If you thought you were excited about Shaq before....

[nashman]

Originally Posted by ambchang_
I was simply at a loss at why people are so ready to grill non-boxing out Marion, and ready to give a non-boxing out Stoudemire a free pass (other than the fact that one was traded and the other wasn't).

Is Amare the most gifted offensive forward outside of Lebron? I would say that he is a fantastic finisher, but he is not that great creating offense, and he can't pass that well. At this point, Carmelo Anthony, Caron Butler, Kevin Durant, Carlos Boozer, Chris Bosh, and Dirk Nowitzki are all similar or better offensive players than Amare.

I bolded the ridiculous part, Amare is a superior offensive player than everyone you listed.

 

[slinslin]

Yes that is really ridiculous. Especially Butler, Durant, Boozer, Bosh.. that is just wrong.

Amare shoots 46.3% on jumpshots and has an effective eFG% of almost 60%.
Duncan shoots 39.2% on jumpshots and has an effective eFG% of 51%.
Boozer shoots 45% on jumpshots and has an effective eFG% of 53%.
Bosh shoots 39.1% on jumpshots and has an effective eFG% of 48.4%.
Anthony shoots 41.3% on jumpshots and has an effective eFG% of 49%.
Nowitzki shoots 47.5% on jumpshots and has an effective eFG% of 49.5%.

Scoring per48
1. Lebron 42.0
2. Kobe 35.2
3. Carmelo 34.0
4. Amare 33.7
..Iverson, Wade, Kevin Martin, Ginobili
9. Boozer 29.7
10. Bosh 29.6
..Magette
12.Nowitzki 29.2
...
23. Durant 28.1
25. Duncan 27.4
...
~40. Butler 25.6

I am not even sure why you wanted to compare him to wing players though.

Highest Scoring Average in the 4th Quarter
9.1 347 38 CLE LeBron James
7.3 256 35 MIA Dwyane Wade
6.6 284 43 LAL Kobe Bryant
6.4 263 41 ATL Joe Johnson
6.0 274 46 ORL Hedo Turkoglu
5.8 267 46 GS Baron Davis
5.7 256 45 UTA Deron Williams
5.6 230 41 WAS Caron Butler
5.5 235 43 NY Jamal Crawford
5.4 231 43 PHO Amare Stoudemire

*small guys/shooters benefit more from intentional fouls near the end of games. Amare is I think the only player on that list who isn't really one would get the ball to make freethrows at the end when the other team has to foul.

Plus Amare has playoff averages of 28ppg at 53%FG in 25 games since his rookie season in 37mpg playing the Spurs in 10 of those games for good measure. How many players can hold their own against that scoring average in the playoffs? Shaq 25.5ppg, Lebron 27.3 , Wade 25.5ppg, Kobe 23.3..

28ppg since the series against the Spurs in Amares rookie season which would drag his career average down to 25.4ppg on a level with Shaq and Wade, but again Amare played more than HALF of his career playoff games against Tim Duncan. The best defensive team of the last decade and one of the best defensive players of all time.

*broke KAJ record for scoring average in the WCF for a first timer in the WCF averaging 37ppg against the Spurs
**owns scoring record for the rookie vs soph challege, well ok this doesnt mean much

Summary:
You'll have a hard time claiming that someone is a better scorer than Amare other than Lebron and Kobe.

 

[BeeBeard]

Highest Scoring Average in the 4th Quarter
9.1 347 38 CLE LeBron James
7.3 256 35 MIA Dwyane Wade
6.6 284 43 LAL Kobe Bryant
6.4 263 41 ATL Joe Johnson
6.0 274 46 ORL Hedo Turkoglu
5.8 267 46 GS Baron Davis
5.7 256 45 UTA Deron Williams
5.6 230 41 WAS Caron Butler
5.5 235 43 NY Jamal Crawford
5.4 231 43 PHO Amare Stoudemire

"One of these things is not like the others." Just as an aside, I wanted to point out how funny it is that Crawford is on that list. The Knicks see him as some sort of fourth quarter closer. They have him take all the shots and run plays for him and everything. How's that been working out, Isiah?

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

I respect Crawford's game, it's a shame he is wasted in New York.

 

[ambchang_]

Originally Posted by ambchang_
Wow! Well your new but that post is just crazy. Amare is better than every player you listed except maybe Dirk, but thats even questionable as Dirk is soft. I take Amare over every player in a heartbeat. And as AZfinest said you should have at least but the best PF Duncan in your argument. One of the craziest posts I have ever seen.

The response was to whether a player is a gifted offensive player, and my argument is that no, Amare isn't better than those players because he can't create offense as well as them, nor can he pass as well as them. He can finish, and yes, I would say that he is one of the top finishers in the league, but that has nothing to do with the original claim.

 

[ambchang_]

Please see original quote, I cut it out because of the length.

I am not claiming those players are better finishers than Amare, and just as a finisher, Amare is probably second to none in the league, maybe other than Dwight Howard, but even that is a maybe.

But I am saying that he is not as skilled an offensive player as those listed. All of those listed could create for themselves and their teammates, while Amare benefitted from playing with one of the best open court passing PG in the league, and a fast-break offense.

BTW, thanks for listing Duncan, forgot about him.

 

[slinslin]

He can create 10 times better than a guy like Boozer and some of those other guys. Are you a Suns fan? I kind of doubt it that you see Amare on a regular basis.

Facts and Stats are certainly not in your favor.

And please this Steve Nash stuff... Amare's scoring average in the last 4 years has been higher with Nash out of the lineup.

 

[ambchang_]

Carmelo is not better than amare, check the FG%. Id say check out amare performance when it counts, in the postseason. Amare was way more efficient than those guys in the playoffs, on par with Tim Duncan on OFFENSE. Melo is a 46% career shooter and less than 40% FG's in the playoffs. Amare is 53.5% career FG's and 53.2% in the playoffs, NO DROPOFF. All the other guys on that list are less proven than amare on offense in the big games. Bosh, 40% FG's in the leastern conference playoffs. You do remember Dirk shot 38% against the heat in the /06 NBA finals, right? In the last 3 years, dirk has shot 40, 47, and 38% in the playoffs and has a career 44.5% shooting percentage in the playoffs. This is why amare is a top 10 talent on offense in the NBA, he can do it when it matters. Lebron is really coming around, his outside shot is really improving, he is scary! Amares defense is worse than all but melo(terrible) in that group. I do think he will pass Dirk this year in defense.


Hollinger has Amare at #2 to lebron in the NBA in efficiency

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...hollinger/statistics?univLogin02=stateChanged

Again, I am looking at the whole body of work on offense rather than strictly as a finisher.
BTW, I put little confidence in Hollinger's rankings, Ginobili is #9, Calderon #15, Bynum #14, TJ Ford #20, etc ....

 

[slinslin]

And another stat for you

Boozer is assisted on more of his baskets than Amare is.

To summarize for you

- Amare has a much higher playoff scoring average than anyone you mentioned and it came playing 16 of his 31 games against the Spurs and Duncan. In fact Amare has better playoff numbers than Tim Duncan and that's the only thing that really matters because one can see Amare coasting through the regular season compared to what he does in the playoffs which is the true season.

- Amare has a much higher per minute scoring average than anyone you mentioned except Carmelo Anthony who is a hair ahead

- Amare has a much higher FG% than anyone you mentioned.

- Amare is the best SHOOTER among those mentioned with the exception of Nowitzki.

- Amare is the best 4th quarter scorer among those mentioned despite not specifically getting the ball to shoot end of game freethrows

- Amare is the best at drawing fouls of those mentioned

 

[ambchang_]

He can create 10 times better than a guy like Boozer and some of those other guys. Are you a Suns fan? I kind of doubt it that you see Amare on a regular basis.

Facts and Stats are certainly not in your favor.

And please this Steve Nash stuff... Amare's scoring average in the last 4 years has been higher with Nash out of the lineup.

I tend to think that I see both Boozer and Amare rather extensively, and it's pretty obvious I am not a Suns fan.

As an offensive player, Amare has often been the recipient of the Suns offense, and that is not much of a secret. Sure he would still be a 20ppg scorer on most other teams, but he won't be shooting that %.

EDIT: If you want to be selective about your stats, how about this, Amare has 1.2 Asts vs. 2.5 TO for his career. Boozer is 2.3 and 2.1, Butler is 2.7 and 2.2, so on and so forth. Even Kevin Durant, a rookie with half a season under his belt, has 2.3 vs. 2.8. Amare is a catch and shoot/dunk person. I am not sure what you take me as saying, but all I am saying is that Amare is not as good an offensive player as those mentioned because he can't create.

 

[nowagimp]

Again, I am looking at the whole body of work on offense rather than strictly as a finisher.
BTW, I put little confidence in Hollinger's rankings, Ginobili is #9, Calderon #15, Bynum #14, TJ Ford #20, etc ....

Your argument lacks substance, like the fact that amare is heads and shoulders above those other guys in offensive efficiency(%FGs) WHILE scoring better than 25ppg in the playoffs. Forget Hollingers ratings, 25ppg on 15 shots average, are you kidding? The fact that amare is so efficient while not passing as well tells you that he is even more difficult to guard than the stats suggest as he will be doubled more by defenses that do not fear his passing. Frankly the passing will be there, shaq wasnt a real good passer as a young guy and neither was Barkley. Passing out of double teams isnt that hard and will make his efficiency go up even more. Amare is all upside except for the injuries. Right now, amare stoudemire is the best "go to big guy" not named Tim Duncan in the NBA, that speaks for itself.

 

[slinslin]

Amare's passing is much better than stats suggest anyway. It is simply not utilized in our running game so far. When we feed him the ball and he gets touches in halfcourt sets he usually ends up with 2-4 assists...
Should also go up now with Shaq.

 

[nashman]

Weak arguments to even compare those guys to Amare. Especially Durant the kid has talent but shoots A LOT to even get his points and really is more of a guard than a PF anyway. Just bad post man up and admit it.

 

[ambchang_]

And another stat for you

Boozer is assisted on more of his baskets than Amare is.

To summarize for you

- Amare has a much higher playoff scoring average than anyone you mentioned and it came playing 16 of his 31 games against the Spurs and Duncan. In fact Amare has better playoff numbers than Tim Duncan and that's the only thing that really matters because one can see Amare coasting through the regular season compared to what he does in the playoffs which is the true season.

- Amare has a much higher per minute scoring average than anyone you mentioned except Carmelo Anthony who is a hair ahead

- Amare has a much higher FG% than anyone you mentioned.

- Amare is the best SHOOTER among those mentioned with the exception of Nowitzki.

- Amare is the best 4th quarter scorer among those mentioned despite not specifically getting the ball to shoot end of game freethrows

- Amare is the best at drawing fouls of those mentioned

I would be interested in seeing the stat that gives the number of assisted FGs, just for interest sake. I just found that Nash assist more than Williams on teammate FG, but that hardly comes as a surprise.

Again, high scorign average is NOT an indication of how good an offensive player is. Not even in the playoffs (in fact, especially in the playoffs given the monotonous defensive schemes players face).

I would NEVER say Vince Carter is a better offensive player than, say Magic Johnson from despite his better scoring average. Or Mitch Richmond being better than John Stockton.

FG% is an indication of an ability to finish, which I agree Amare is second to none.

 

[ambchang_]

Weak arguments to even compare those guys to Amare. Especially Durant the kid has talent but shoots A LOT to even get his points and really is more of a guard than a PF anyway. Just bad post man up and admit it.

Please chime in when you come up with your own arguments instead of piggybacking on others who actually have something concrete to say.

 

[BeeBeard]

I respect Crawford's game, it's a shame every player on the Knicks roster is wasted in New York.

Fixed it for you.

 

[ambchang_]

Your argument lacks substance, like the fact that amare is heads and shoulders above those other guys in offensive efficiency(%FGs) WHILE scoring better than 25ppg in the playoffs. Forget Hollingers ratings, 25ppg on 15 shots average, are you kidding? The fact that amare is so efficient while not passing as well tells you that he is even more difficult to guard than the stats suggest as he will be doubled more by defenses that do not fear his passing. Frankly the passing will be there, shaq wasnt a real good passer as a young guy and neither was Barkley. Passing out of double teams isnt that hard and will make his efficiency go up even more. Amare is all upside except for the injuries. Right now, amare stoudemire is the best "go to big guy" not named Tim Duncan in the NBA, that speaks for itself.

Wouldn't his low assist numbers indicate that he WASN'T doubled that much to begin with? In fact, it is difficult to double anyone on the Suns, which makes them so dangerous.

And no, the passing has not been there, and we can't just say that his passing WOULD be there and claim that he is already better. The same has been true for his defense.

And for the 7th time, eFG% is an indication of how well a player finishes, not how skilled he is as an offensive player. Unless you want to bring up the likes of James Donaldson and Oliver Miller.

 

[nowagimp]

Wouldn't his low assist numbers indicate that he WASN'T doubled that much to begin with? In fact, it is difficult to double anyone on the Suns, which makes them so dangerous.

And no, the passing has not been there, and we can't just say that his passing WOULD be there and claim that he is already better. The same has been true for his defense.

And for the 7th time, eFG% is an indication of how well a player finishes, not how skilled he is as an offensive player. Unless you want to bring up the likes of James Donaldson and Oliver Miller.

FG% for a go to guy is critical, you dont need to be a math whiz to figure that one out. A poor FG% IS a sign of weakness, those other guys have it in the playoffs, Tim Duncan(51%), and amare(53%) dont. Amare is more similar to Tim Duncan than those other guys in offensive efficiency. The idea that you mentioned those other guys, melo etc, in the same sentence as amare offensively speaks for itself. Amare shoots 46% in jumpers, better than the others, thats not a finish is it? Amares ability to finish DOES give him a more open jumper, which he knocks down better than the others. Thats a balance in his game not matched by the others.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Hey amberchang - this is why you are so blatently and ridiculously wrong and I don't even need to go to Hollinger to back it up. I have eyes and understanding of the game.

In fact I question if you watch the Suns beyond highlights as it seems your POV is quite archaic and looks like you have watched one to many highlights of amare dunking on Olwakandi.

Of course Amare is a great finisher. But especially since his surgery his game is so much more. First off he is a much better ball handler then you give him credit. Create for others? Why would he? He is the end result. Not to mention some of the guys you listed as "better offensive players" (way subjective term but i digress) like Durant and Carmelo are what we call BLACK HOLES. Meaning they are chuckers.

Look at the shots Amare takes. Very rarely does he take a bad one. Thats why he has the highest career FG% of those players you listed except for possibly Boozer.

Amare is much better around the rim then any of those guys you mentioned. Whether it be put backs or finishing around the hoop he is much better ( I know thats the area you gave him credit but let me finish)

Amare has a better jump shot then alot of those guys on the list and the ones he doesn't who are 4's (except Dirk) he is a better shooter then. He doesn't get enough credit for how much he refined this and Rick Barry was lamenting the same thing during Sundays game.

Hes got great touch, has scored 50 in a game and was the leagues third leading scorer only a year before his surgery. He has made first team all NBA twice IIRC and gets his points on far fewer shots then the other guys. Not to mention he can score in a variety of ways from alley oop, to pick and roll, to pick and pop, to midrange create for himself and filling up the lane. He has also made 30 straight free throws in a row. Not to mention I think he has the highest career ppg of all those guys other then maybe Carmelo and Dirk again, Melo is a chucker and Dirk is a 3pt shooter (BTW he is averaging less then his career avg this year so it looks like he might be on the downward spiral after last years meltdown).

But other then all that you got something here

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Some more numbers

Playoff PPG - (when defense is toughest)

STAT - 25.4
Dirk - 25.2
Carmelo - 20.8
Boozer - 23.5

Career FG%
(Only STAT and Boozer are close)
Boozer - 53.8%
STAT - 53.5%

BUT

Career PPG
STAT - 20.4 (inclusing his shortened microfracture year where he averaged 8pts in 3 games)
Boozer - 16.6

Add it all up and your flippant comment just holds no water.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

ambchang is grossly misunderestimating Amare's dominance.

 

[nashman]

Please chime in when you come up with your own arguments instead of piggybacking on others who actually have something concrete to say.

My own arguments? How about facts goofball, I don't need post a bunch of stats to know, as well as many others, that your wrong. The fact that you think those players are better players than Amare, just makes you look like you have no understanding or ever watched an NBA game.

 

[ambchang_]

FG% for a go to guy is critical, you dont need to be a math whiz to figure that one out. A poor FG% IS a sign of weakness, those other guys have it in the playoffs, Tim Duncan(51%), and amare(53%) dont. Amare is more similar to Tim Duncan than those other guys in offensive efficiency. The idea that you mentioned those other guys, melo etc, in the same sentence as amare offensively speaks for itself. Amare shoots 46% in jumpers, better than the others, thats not a finish is it? Amares ability to finish DOES give him a more open jumper, which he knocks down better than the others. Thats a balance in his game not matched by the others.

I already said Amare is a better finisher, but my concentration is on him as an offensive player as a whole. Nash is a fantastic offensive player, and certainly better than Amare, but he scores less and with a worse FG%, but if I were to ask a player to create on offense, it would be Nash, not Amare.

As for a goto guy, FG% is important, but the best go to guys in the history of the league are not tops in FG%. Jordan, Bird, Magic, West, and Kobe doesn't have a FG% as high as, say Shaq or Duncan, but if I have to score a basket at the end of a close game, even ignoring the foul situation, I would give it to those players.

 

[ambchang_]

Hey amberchang - this is why you are so blatently and ridiculously wrong and I don't even need to go to Hollinger to back it up. I have eyes and understanding of the game.

In fact I question if you watch the Suns beyond highlights as it seems your POV is quite archaic and looks like you have watched one to many highlights of amare dunking on Olwakandi.

Of course Amare is a great finisher. But especially since his surgery his game is so much more. First off he is a much better ball handler then you give him credit. Create for others? Why would he? He is the end result. Not to mention some of the guys you listed as "better offensive players" (way subjective term but i digress) like Durant and Carmelo are what we call BLACK HOLES. Meaning they are chuckers.

Look at the shots Amare takes. Very rarely does he take a bad one. Thats why he has the highest career FG% of those players you listed except for possibly Boozer.

Amare is much better around the rim then any of those guys you mentioned. Whether it be put backs or finishing around the hoop he is much better ( I know thats the area you gave him credit but let me finish)

Amare has a better jump shot then alot of those guys on the list and the ones he doesn't who are 4's (except Dirk) he is a better shooter then. He doesn't get enough credit for how much he refined this and Rick Barry was lamenting the same thing during Sundays game.

Hes got great touch, has scored 50 in a game and was the leagues third leading scorer only a year before his surgery. He has made first team all NBA twice IIRC and gets his points on far fewer shots then the other guys. Not to mention he can score in a variety of ways from alley oop, to pick and roll, to pick and pop, to midrange create for himself and filling up the lane. He has also made 30 straight free throws in a row. Not to mention I think he has the highest career ppg of all those guys other then maybe Carmelo and Dirk again, Melo is a chucker and Dirk is a 3pt shooter (BTW he is averaging less then his career avg this year so it looks like he might be on the downward spiral after last years meltdown).

But other then all that you got something here

It would actually be shocking evidence if I haven't heard all those arguments before.

Boozer is better around the rim, is a very good jump shooter, and a better passer.

Dirk has a better jump shot, much better passer, much better on the dribble.

Melo is a better shooter, passer (even though he is a black hole), creates better off the dribble.

Bosh is way better off the dribble, have more moves to create around the basket.

Butler is a better passer, better off the dribble, better creator on offense.

And thanks for throwing the "I know you didn't watch the game" card, I was waiting for that. Please tell me more of things I don't know about myself, oh mighty omnipotent poster.

 

[ambchang_]

Some more numbers

Playoff PPG - (when defense is toughest)

STAT - 25.4
Dirk - 25.2
Carmelo - 20.8
Boozer - 23.5

Career FG%
(Only STAT and Boozer are close)
Boozer - 53.8%
STAT - 53.5%

BUT

Career PPG
STAT - 20.4 (inclusing his shortened microfracture year where he averaged 8pts in 3 games)
Boozer - 16.6

Add it all up and your flippant comment just holds no water.

Career PPG
Marbury - 19.7 ppg
Nash - 14.2 ppg

Playoff PPG
Marbury - 19.4 ppg
Nash - 17.3 ppg

Marbury is a better offensive player than Nash.