I'm giddy....SHAQ IS PISSED.
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dodie53
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Rab
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This is one reason that I have never been a Shaq fan. I'll root for him while on my team, but I can't stand the way he chooses to blame rather than accept responsibility.
i dont like the whining either, but obviously sitting back and letting it happen doesn't work, because the spurs will never stop with what they do (yes spurs fans, we know...win) with their flopping. we need to use our fouls right, make no secret what a foul is and isn't. knock ginobli's nose up a little bit. smash duncan's big eyes. this is the playoffs dammit. the suns are playing right now like they forget what last year felt like. we need to be the "bad-boys" in this series. dunk on someone. get fired up. don't whine.
jbeecham
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I don't care if we get a few flopping calls against us as long as the refs call fouls against Duncan. If they continue to refuse to do that and call lots of fouls on our bigs then it will be extremely difficult for the Suns to win the series.
Duncan played 51 minutes and had only 3 fouls. 1 of those wasn't even a foul and an immediate make-up call was whistled on Diaw. 1 of those was an offensive foul when he ran over Nash. So in 51 minutes, Duncan commited 1 actual defensive foul.......that's just crazy. Actually Oberto's 3 fouls were all intentional hack-a-shaq calls so he didn't commit a real defensive foul in the entire game. How did those 2 play 75 minutes and only commit 1 real defensive foul? That has to be the best defensive effort in the history of the NBA (well according to the refs).
Duncan played 51 minutes and had only 3 fouls. 1 of those wasn't even a foul and an immediate make-up call was whistled on Diaw. 1 of those was an offensive foul when he ran over Nash. So in 51 minutes, Duncan commited 1 actual defensive foul.......that's just crazy. Actually Oberto's 3 fouls were all intentional hack-a-shaq calls so he didn't commit a real defensive foul in the entire game. How did those 2 play 75 minutes and only commit 1 real defensive foul? That has to be the best defensive effort in the history of the NBA (well according to the refs).
And yet, with all your crazy foul math, on our home floor, where as the norm, the home team gets most of the calls in their favor, your Suns finished with 3 less total fouls and 7 more Free Throw attempts!
Boy, I guess Stern needs to have a talk with his refs and make sure that doesn't happen again to his beloved Spurs!!
jbeecham
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And yet you completely ignore my points. How do you explain Duncan & Oberto committing 1 actual defensive foul in 75 minutes? This is the way it is no matter where we play the Spurs so don't pull out home court advantage. Duncan is protected, game in and game out all season long. He's so protected that he flips out when a foul is actually called on him because it's such a rare experience for him because he's gotten away with the same foul 15 times already in the game. What I don't get is that he is a hell of a player and he doesn't need the protection, but he gets it anyways.
If Amare could commit 60+ fouls per game and only get called for 2-3 of them then he would be the best player in the NBA. Oh and "Crazy Foul Math"...... all I did was subtract intentional fouls (where the refs don't have to make a decision to call the foul), offensive fouls and a foul where the ref admitted he got the call wrong (and replay showed he did).
If Amare could commit 60+ fouls per game and only get called for 2-3 of them then he would be the best player in the NBA. Oh and "Crazy Foul Math"...... all I did was subtract intentional fouls (where the refs don't have to make a decision to call the foul), offensive fouls and a foul where the ref admitted he got the call wrong (and replay showed he did).
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Bufalay
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Duncan wasn't fouling as much as he usually does in game 1. Bowen was.
60+ fouls a game!!
Thanks! I needed a good laugh before bed.Listen, the Spurs had more fouls and less free throw attempts and yet you as a Suns fan STILL continue to blame officiating for your loss!!
I don't get it!!
jbeecham
ASFN Addict
The Suns only had more ft attempts because of hack-a-shaq. It's also the only reason the Spurs had more fouls. Hack-a-Shaq got the Spurs into the penalty (actually they had to intentional foul 3x to get there) and then other Suns got fts. You still haven't said why Duncan doesn't get foul calls. Does he just play incredibly clean in every single game? Do you actually believe that? Or do you acknowledge the bias and enjoy it?60+ fouls a game!!
Listen, the Spurs had more fouls and less free throw attempts and yet you as a Suns fan STILL continue to blame officiating for your loss!!
I don't get it!!
60+ fouls isn't crazy either. There was a guy (non- Suns or Spurs fan) that went through a Suns-Spurs game from last years playoffs play-by-play. I'll see if I can find the article, it would be a good read for you.
EDIT: Found the article about Game 2 last year..... enjoy http://wisinsider.blogspot.com/2007/05/suns-spurs-game-two-watching-whistles.html
BTW the Suns won Game 2 by a good margin and still got shafted on the calls according to an unbiased eye.
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cobbler
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And the broken record just continues to play and play. Have you ever thought.... maybe... just maybe... Duncan plays better Defense? Shaq and Amare are well known for having defensive defeciencies and when you get beat on a consistant basis... you put yourself in fouling situations ON A CONSISTANT BASIS and dont get the benefit of the doubt. Add to that, the constant ref and stern bashing, it's no wonder you dont get the 50/50 calls.
Have you ever made it through a thread without complaining about the refs?
Duncan doesn't get called for the same reason as your beloved Nash doesn't get called for fouling. They are both former league MVP's and class acts on & off the court.
And let me guess, this guy had the Suns only committing maybe 10 fouls or so huh?
jbeecham
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Read the article, he tries to be as fair as possible and points out when the Suns aren't called for bad fouls or when the Suns get a call they shouldn't have. Cobbler you should read the article too.
cobbler
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Heres some stats for you from nba.com
2007-2008
Fouls Avg per game
Amare: 3.7 Shaq: 2.9 Duncan: 2.7
Career
Amare: 3.5 Shaq: 2.8 Duncan 2.7
I dont see a huge discrepency! Certainly not a large enough one to merit all the whining game in and game out.
Facts is facts.....
2007-2008
Fouls Avg per game
Amare: 3.7 Shaq: 2.9 Duncan: 2.7
Career
Amare: 3.5 Shaq: 2.8 Duncan 2.7
I dont see a huge discrepency! Certainly not a large enough one to merit all the whining game in and game out.
Facts is facts.....
cobbler
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Read it. Nice read. Again though, it's a subjective topic and why is the author's opinion any better than the refs or yours or mine? Defending champs get the benefit of the doubt in all sports. Is it right? No. But thats life. God forbid if the Suns of today played the Pistons of the 80's. You would be calling for capital punishment!
I just hate all the complaining. Not just from you or the other 4 or 5 guys that seem to dwell way too much on it, but even fans of my team. I think Kobe is an awesome player with the best overall skill set of any player in a long time. Yet the one thing i cannot stand from him is his constant whining. And guess what? The more he whines....the worse it gets. The fans do the same about him. The best thing to happen to him was getting that 15th tech in the last 2 weeks of the season. He HAD to shut up.
The refs miss a lot of calls for all teams. We all know this. Its the hardest game to officiate. But wouldnt common sense tell you that if you are in the refs face all game long that they are going to tire of it and just turn a deaf ear and blind eye? Especially when it starts from the coach throwing fits on a regualr basis.
It just gets old.... and i happen to think your team is better than that.
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YouJustGotSUNSD
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I think complaining about reffing in game 1 is the biggest reason why non-suns fans call us whiners.
You cannot even consider blaming the refs in a game that was that close with all the egregious errors the suns made.
There are too many legit poopy-ref instances in the suns history to complain about non-issue instances like this most recent game.
sheesh
You cannot even consider blaming the refs in a game that was that close with all the egregious errors the suns made.
There are too many legit poopy-ref instances in the suns history to complain about non-issue instances like this most recent game.
sheesh
cobbler
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Agreed! Im a laker fan...you all know that. I like the suns. Well, most of them!
Game 1 was a great game to watch. The best of all the game ones. The loss was a direct result of coaching errors and on the floor bad decisions in the clutch. I saw bad calls on both sides. It was pretty darn even. Now when you get fans who cannot accept that the loss was due to the teams faults and blame the refs in this situation (game one), then it only makes your stance that much weaker when you have a legitimate beef. Maybe a read of the boy who cried wolf should be in order.
Just my 2 cents...and what do i know anyway?
jbeecham
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I agree with you that I think the players should complain less about the officiating, but I can't really blame them for losing it once in a while. It's an emotional game and there's no worse feeling in sports then feeling like you're getting screwed and that the playing field isn't level. I don't know how these guys restrain themselves sometimes...... especially a guy like Shaq that has guys landing on top of him to try to stop him. When I see a guy like Duncan that doesn't have to follow the rules that everyone else does then it drives me crazy. When I see refs that choose not to enforce rules or make calls on one end but not the other then it annoys the hell out of me (not just against the Suns either). I can watch any NBA game and get pissed about inconsistent officiating. I don't expect the refs to be perfect, just enforce the rules evenly on both ends.
cobbler
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I do understand where you are comming from. I often watch a game and say..."what were they looking at?" But seriously, they could call a foul on every play. Every single one. Not unlike holding in the NFL. It could be called on every play. Do we want to see games that are simply free throw shooting contests? I don't. So they call the obvious. They miss a lot no doubt, but as you can see from the numbers above, the fouls of those 3 are pretty close over their entire careers. Amare avgs less than one foul more a game than Shaq and Duncan. I certainly feel thats pretty accurate because hes the weakest of the 3 defensively and is a high flyer and prone to more charges. Shaq avgs 1/10 more over a carreer than Duncan.
I would bet if you asked a lot of the fans that complain so much what the difference is, they would say something like Amare gets 3:1 fouls ratio to Duncans.
Can you at all see where i am comming from?
jbeecham
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Honestly, I would like to see the refs start off a year calling fouls on every single play until the players learn to play by the rules. The players would eventually adjust and start playing a cleaner game (or else they won't be playing). It would also take a lot of the subjectivity out of the officiating if they actually enforce rules the way they're written instead of how they interpret them. They wouldn't have to take into account what players are involved or how much time is left or who's in foul trouble or what a player/teams reputation is, etc etc. Officiating is only so hard in the NBA because they've let so much go for so long that players don't know what a foul is from game to game because it changes depending on who's reffing, who they're playing, etc.
cobbler
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I somewhat agree. First, part of the game is cerebral and understanding which refs are calling that game and how they are calling it and making your adjustments accordingly. Not unlike a baseball ump. Hey, Joe blow is umping, he has a low strike zone. You adjust.
On another note, the players themselves make the refs job all the more tougher with all the flopping and arm flailing as well as the wretched Kobe scream.
cobbler
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On a bright note.... i went a whole week here without being called a troll!!!
Im outta here, nice discussion and good luck in game 2! I think its pretty much a must win for you guys. I think you will pull it off.
I really am hoping for a laker vs suns WCF. I think it would be off the charts!
Last but not least.... You know the Shaq comments post game were right out of the Phil Jackson put a notion in the refs head 101 book right?
Im outta here, nice discussion and good luck in game 2! I think its pretty much a must win for you guys. I think you will pull it off.
I really am hoping for a laker vs suns WCF. I think it would be off the charts!
Last but not least.... You know the Shaq comments post game were right out of the Phil Jackson put a notion in the refs head 101 book right?
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jbeecham
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Yeah, unfortunately this has always backfired on the Suns. Hopefully Shaq saying it might carry a little more sway with the refs.......but I doubt it.
Dude you just made a case like Duncan is a perfect defender and 1 post later you are trying to bail out by using Nash and Duncan acollades as the reason he is not called for a lot of fouls.
Which is a stupid comparison since we all know Nash has never been a Defensive player and i am sure if calls favored nash then the suns will be at the foul line on every play considering how much hacking bruce inflicts on him and there have been numerous articles on how suns never get the benefit of a call especially Nash.
I also find it funny spurs fans are calling suns fan whiners, take a look at their suns-spurs thread while the spurs were down by 16. They were all screaming; Refs are killing us!! the Refs have been bought!! but because the Spurs won, now Suns are whiners.
Granted, it is stupid to blame officials for the loss not because we let them back in the game after they were down 16 point; they are reigning champion and no way are they going down that easy in game 1 to a conference rival who has already beaten them 2 straight times in the regular season. Pop simply out-coached Mike D in the dying minutes but i still respect the suns bench considering that it took almost 4 quarters and every trick in the book for the Spurs bench to catch up.
I cant wait for game 2
Referee
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Sorry man, but living in Miami I have seen Shaq and his old tirades never change... He needs to step up unless the $20 mil is causing him to be a little bit slower. I will never forgive him for dissing Rick Barry who offered to help Shaq learn to make some free throws underhanded. Try it sometime... Barry shot over 90% in the NBA and Shaq threw the suggestion under the bus. Well those many, many and many times over missed free throws cost the Heat many games. Way to go Shaq. Also he has yet to show the dominance that we all want to believe he can deliver. I just wish for once he would shut up and let his play dictate his meaning.
