Is D'Antoni Getting the Job Done?

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by BC867

In the previous Suns game, JJ started at the Point. If you're going to try something different, fine. But give it more than one game to gel.

Technically last game JJ started at the point, and Barbosa was the starting 2 guard. At least that is what they said on TV.

Against the Mavs, I liked the lineup they used. The Mavs start Najera at center (only 6'7) so we actually outsized at every position.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Suns small ball against the Mavs made sense. It just didn't work. The Suns simply don't play shooters very tight no matter how big or small the Suns player is.

One guy made a comment that the Suns keep making changes without staying with one long enough to see if it is working. One example is running the high post offense.

Against the Mavs, the Suns used Carbakapa at the high post and Amare on low post and baseline. I liked the way it worked, but they did not stay with it and went back to their usual five guys on the perimeter setup.

When Lampe was in the lineup, he stood at the high post but they never passed him the ball there.

Jake made a pass from the high post to someone under the basket (it feels like a first), but did not get the ball at the high post later on.

Running the offense through the high post looked promising, yet they did not stay with it long enough to tell if it could work. Running the high post with cutters looks like a great use of the Suns talent, yet there they are standing around shooting jump shots again.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

Jake made a pass from the high post to someone under the basket (it feels like a first), but did not get the ball at the high post later on.

The first play Jake was in the game he threw a great alley oop to Amare from the top of the key.

I agree about the high post though. It seemed to work nicely with Zarko in the beginning of the game, I really don't know why they stopped.

 

[sunsfn]

f-dog said,
----------------------------------------------------
I'll defend D'Antoni.


As recently as last week, the Suns were playing surprisingly well, and people were complaining that they weren't playing Lampe enough, and playing guys with no future on the team (Eisley and McDyess) too much.

This week, the team is giving Lampe and Zarko significant minutes, and the team is getting its ass kicked. Why are the coaches getting blamed for the team's poor performance? Are they somehow different from the coaches that were looking very smart when Amare was wearing street clothes a month ago?


With Zarko and Maciej, the Suns have two players in their rotation who never heard of NBA defense before this year (to go with Amare, who first heard of NBA defense last year), and it's a surprise that the Suns' defense sucks all of a sudden? They're now playing without a point guard for stretches so that 'Joe Johnson can eventually become a better two-guard', and it's a surprise that the offense lacks discipline?


Comparisons with Utah don't make much sense, IMO. I think that if you look at the guys who are actually playing, you'll find that the Jazz is not a young team at all--they're mostly comprised of journeymen in the primes of their careers. The Jazz' young core of talent consists of Kirilenko, Raul Lopez (getting short minutes off the bench) and Pavlovic (DNP-CD against Phoenix). Their youngest starter after Kirilenko is Carlos Arroyo, who's 25.

There's a saying in the NBA that you don't win with young players, and the Jazz and the Suns bear this out. The Suns' young, talented rookies simply aren't as good yet as who-dat veterans like Raja Bell and Greg Ostertag.

IMO if you think that the Suns should look more like Utah, your real problem is with the GM, not the coaching staff.


The visible difference between D'Antoni and other coaches in the same situation is that he hasn't quit in a huff (O'Brien), and he's not publicly blaming the players (Skiles) or management (FJ) for his problems. I don't see this as a negative.

My understanding is that D'Antoni runs dynamite practices and prepares the players well. It should be just a question of how long before the lessons start to sink in, and the Suns are certainly in a position where they can afford to preach patience...even if the fans' patience seems to be wearing a little thin lately...
-------------------------------------------------

I agree, good post.
We need patience and I think we will see some good results next year as the players learn to play together and learn D'Antonis system.

 

[minercon]

Has anyone really taken a look at these guy's faces at timeouts.....they look defeated. I'm sure all of them wish to be traded during the off season. The draft is not going to make us better. We have youth and we have some talent.....just not talent at all the right positons, including the coaching position.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by minercon
Has anyone really taken a look at these guy's faces at timeouts.....they look defeated. I'm sure all of them wish to be traded during the off season. The draft is not going to make us better. We have youth and we have some talent.....just not talent at all the right positons, including the coaching position.

The Suns have a lot of talent, but their older players are not producing and their younger players are very inexperienced.

One key from a free agency standpoint is that the Suns need veteran leadership. There is an article in the Arizona Republic saying that this role may fall on Amare, who is only 21.

The Suns absolutely cannot afford to go through the free agency period without making a substantial change. The player needs to be willing to take a strong leadership position and keep the other players focused.

 

[elindholm]

The Suns absolutely cannot afford to go through the free agency period without making a substantial change. The player needs to be willing to take a strong leadership position and keep the other players focused.

But if the summer brings only second-tier free agents, I don't see how any of them can assume a leadership position with Stoudemire blossoming so quickly. If it's Bryant, that's one thing. But is Erick Dampier going to come over and "lead" the Suns? That's absurd.

I hate to say it, but the one "consolation prize" free agent who really could step into a leadership role is Steve Nash. I think Nash is staying in Dallas, and that there are better ways that the Suns could spend their money, but he does at least meet the leadership criterion. Just not on the defensive end.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
The Suns absolutely cannot afford to go through the free agency period without making a substantial change. The player needs to be willing to take a strong leadership position and keep the other players focused.

But if the summer brings only second-tier free agents, I don't see how any of them can assume a leadership position with Stoudemire blossoming so quickly. If it's Bryant, that's one thing. But is Erick Dampier going to come over and "lead" the Suns? That's absurd.

I hate to say it, but the one "consolation prize" free agent who really could step into a leadership role is Steve Nash. I think Nash is staying in Dallas, and that there are better ways that the Suns could spend their money, but he does at least meet the leadership criterion. Just not on the defensive end.

I am inclined to rank Brent Barry as a better fit for the Suns than Nash. He doesn't score as much, but he is taller, a better shooter and can play either guard position. He played successfully on the defense oriented George Karl team and knows how to play the game. The Sonics are pushing a youth movement with Daniels and Ridnour so he is likely to be interested in moving. Barry is two years older than Nash, but has historically been considered a better athlete.

Obviously neither BB nor Nash are in Kobe's class; but the Suns will have to do something.

 

[sly fly]

I love Nash's game. And, I would be great to have him here. But, Cuban will not let him leave.

PHX is in no position to get players in here according to position. They need PLAYERS. Good players, who know how to play the game.

There aren't many of them, but Nash is that type of player.

Barry would be a nice fit, too. (Injuries aside)

Hell, bring 'em both in.

 

[slinslin]

No.

Nash and Barry are both old, soft and injury prone.

Kobe or keep the money for TMac in 2005.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
No.

Nash and Barry are both old, soft and injury prone.

Kobe or keep the money for TMac in 2005.

If the Suns use their draft pick to clear cap space, then they had better use it.

The injury issue is always an important one, but then so is Kobe's recurring shoulder problem. The key is that the Suns need some leadership and the ability to hit open jump shots. Right now I think the Suns are too young and it hurts.

 

[hcsilla]

Barry reportedly declined a 15 mil./3 year extension offer from the Sonics and he demands 21 mil. for 3 year.

Even for 15 mil. he would be way overpaid.
If he demands more than 3 mil./year forget about him!
Remember: do NOT overpay anyone!

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by hcsilla
Barry reportedly declined a 15 mil./3 year extension offer from the Sonics and he demands 21 mil. for 3 year.

Even for 15 mil. he would be way overpaid.
If he demands more than 3 mil./year forget about him!
Remember: do NOT overpay anyone!

He won't get that much. I'm guessing he will get no more than $16.5 to $17 million over three years. There are a lot of teams that are interested, but most of them cannot offer more than mid cap (about $16.5 over three). Of the teams with cap space above mid cap, Barry is less likely to be a good fit.

Utah has some very promising point guards and Denver has Miller. Atlanta is unlikely to be interested in an older player. The Clippers might make a try if Dunleavy has a say in it, but it seems unlikely considering the history of the Clippers.

I would not be shocked if the Sonics did a sign and trade using Barry. But that is the only way he gets above $17 million over three.

 

[elindholm]

Brent Barry is a good player, but he has the reputation of being a very unpleasant teammate. Assuming there's any substance to those rumors, I don't think he'd be appropriate as the imported leader for a young team of strong and/or fragile personalities.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Brent Barry is a good player, but he has the reputation of being a very unpleasant teammate. Assuming there's any substance to those rumors, I don't think he'd be appropriate as the imported leader for a young team of strong and/or fragile personalities.

That's the first I've heard of that. Ray Allen sure likes him.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
That's the first I've heard of that. Ray Allen sure likes him.

Yeah Eric , at the first time I've ever heard anything about Brent Barry being hard to get along with also.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Yeah Eric , at the first time I've ever heard anything about Brent Barry being hard to get along with also.

Really? Hmm. It was a while ago, but I thought there were several reports. Maybe my memory is bad. I do know that his father is widely considered a jerk, so maybe I was just assuming that it runs in the family.

 

[Errntknght]

Certainly, from the Xs & Os standpoint D'Antoni has shown nothing of value. Supposedly he has a good deal of experience against zone defenses but the Suns continue to stink against them. Even when Zarko comes in and does a good job of attacking from the middle (as one should), D'Antoni doesn't pick up on it. He also has no one trying to attack from the baseline, another profitable venue against the zone. Every now and then some player does wander down to the baseline and some good things have happened, but Mike misses that, too. Interestingly it's often Zarko who gets to the baseline with success.

If he can't do squat with what should be his forte, how can you have any faith in his ability elsewhere?

He doesn't even seem to have the concept of a high post offense. At times with Z or Lampe they seem to be in that sort of alignment, but nothing happens to make you suspect the team is trying to run a high post offense. With Z out high he does make a good assist pass but when Lampe is there, everyone stands around waiting to see what he does. If they were inteintionally operating a high post offense you'd have to see a little bit of action.

It could be that D'A has plans that do not include a high post offense but so far all I can discern is an offense that relies almost solely on one on one play. The way Amare distorts a defense the instant he touches the ball you'd imagine than any organized offense would feature the ball going through Amare on the way to the ultimate target a fair amount but I've seen only one play where Amare appeared to expect to be a passer before getting double teamed. Naturally, you'd expect to see Amare struggling somewhat with the added task of being a ball distributor but we don't see him trying at all.

We have seen progress in the play of individuals, and we've seen regression as well, but when it comes to team play there has been no progress nor the outline of a discernible plan. A team this young and talented I'd expect to see great strides with a coach that knew what he was doing. I don't see how one can help but think D'Antoni is not up to the job.

The only place he's lived up to expectations is on defense - he wasn't supposed to be much good and that looks to be the case.

I do have to agree with the previous poster who said we can't expect anything from the C's as far as getting a good coach - I think it would be dumb luck if it happened but I am hopeful that new ownership will do something trivial, like hire an experieced NBA coach and look like a genius.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Errntknght
Certainly, from the Xs & Os standpoint D'Antoni has shown nothing of value. Supposedly he has a good deal of experience against zone defenses but the Suns continue to stink against them. Even when Zarko comes in and does a good job of attacking from the middle (as one should), D'Antoni doesn't pick up on it. He also has no one trying to attack from the baseline, another profitable venue against the zone. Every now and then some player does wander down to the baseline and some good things have happened, but Mike misses that, too. Interestingly it's often Zarko who gets to the baseline with success.

If he can't do squat with what should be his forte, how can you have any faith in his ability elsewhere?

He doesn't even seem to have the concept of a high post offense. At times with Z or Lampe they seem to be in that sort of alignment, but nothing happens to make you suspect the team is trying to run a high post offense. With Z out high he does make a good assist pass but when Lampe is there, everyone stands around waiting to see what he does. If they were inteintionally operating a high post offense you'd have to see a little bit of action.

It could be that D'A has plans that do not include a high post offense but so far all I can discern is an offense that relies almost solely on one on one play. The way Amare distorts a defense the instant he touches the ball you'd imagine than any organized offense would feature the ball going through Amare on the way to the ultimate target a fair amount but I've seen only one play where Amare appeared to expect to be a passer before getting double teamed. Naturally, you'd expect to see Amare struggling somewhat with the added task of being a ball distributor but we don't see him trying at all.

We have seen progress in the play of individuals, and we've seen regression as well, but when it comes to team play there has been no progress nor the outline of a discernible plan. A team this young and talented I'd expect to see great strides with a coach that knew what he was doing. I don't see how one can help but think D'Antoni is not up to the job.

The only place he's lived up to expectations is on defense - he wasn't supposed to be much good and that looks to be the case.

I do have to agree with the previous poster who said we can't expect anything from the C's as far as getting a good coach - I think it would be dumb luck if it happened but I am hopeful that new ownership will do something trivial, like hire an experieced NBA coach and look like a genius.

At this point we just don't know what D'Antoni has tried to do and what he hasn't in terns of reforming the offense. They do move without the ball better than before and do less dribbling on the perimeter; but they are still much better against man defense.

At this point I'm willing to give Mike the benefit of the doubt on offense. If the offense looks like this next year I'll buy the rope.

My biggest concern is the Suns defense. They rely too much on the trap and not enough on just playing tough man defense. Their zone is too soft and they lose people too often. I'm not sure whose job it is to teach defense, but right now it isn't happening.