Is Fixing the OL This Simple?

[jf-08]

I wonder how much of our problem is scheme and not talent.

And coaching (or lack of) techniques.

 

[Garthshort]

Chopper0080, I agree with most of what you say, but, at this time, I don't see a Luck or RGIII in this year's draft. And we can't expect improved QB play unless we're able to pass pro better. Much better.

 

[Duckjake]

I wonder how much of our problem is scheme and not talent.

And coaching (or lack of) techniques.

I'm one who believes its mostly scheme and coaching techniques because we keep changing players and have the same results. And of course I also believe the fact that we keep changing players has a lot to do with the struggles.

 

[Totally_Red]

I don't see many changes happening...

The idea is Levi Brown, Bobbie Massie, D'Anthony Batiste, and Nate Potter make up a good group of offensive tackles, effectively blending age and athleticism. I agree with his. They get terrible help for both their inside counterparts, their QB and their play calling. Improve our interior line play and our running game improves which allows us to run the ball more effectively.

Inside, here is the mess. As a fan, you have to hope Senio Kelemente can improve his strength enough to beat out one of our two OGs. He already has more athleticism and if he can improve his strength to match the two incumbents, we would have a guard athletic enough to pull and slide in pass pro. With that, I'm ok with Colledge and Snyder battling for the other OG spot provided we bring in a legitimate OC who can handle point of attack. Best one in the draft is Khaled Holmes out of USC, maybe he is available 2nd or 3rd round.

The only other plannable option would be if the Chiefs allow Brandon Albert to hit the open market, we sign him to either play OT or OG. Move pieces after that but I really don't see a fit.

Jonathan Cooper out of UNC would be an upgrade inside, but he might not be available in round 2 and I am still using my first pick on a QB.

Not sure if I agree on Batiste, but the other three should/are serviceable, especially if Massie can improve with coaching and experience.

I really wanted David DeCastro as our first-round pick and still think we screwed the pooch by spending a high first-rounder on at best a #2 receiver who adds little in his first year. Michael Floyd may yet turn into a decent pick, but he's no Anquan Boldin or Larry Fitzgerald, which opens his selection to second-guessing or in my case, first-guessing.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm one who believes its mostly scheme and coaching techniques because we keep changing players and have the same results. And of course I also believe the fact that we keep changing players has a lot to do with the struggles.

It's certainly some scheme in that we ask guys to block 1 on 1 who can't, but that's also talent.

A better OL coach would have this OL playing better, or he'd tell his coach my line can't block the way you want to run your offense.

 

[az jam]

Until Grimm leaves that will never happen. They are way to confident, with no results to back it up I might add, in Grimms ability to coach up talent. Which means they will continue to throw late round picks and other teams cast offs at the problem thinking Grimm can just coach them up. To not draft a linemen in the 3rd round or sooner going on 5 straight years now is proof positive of this. The confidence in Grimm is hurting this team big time.

Grimm is one of the highest paid assistant coach in the league. I really just don't see the development of the OL that should be expected. It appears that Whisenhunt's personal relationship over the years with Grimm makes it difficult to be objective and make the necessary change that he has done on other coaches on his staff. I was a senior manage in the business world and always felt that you should not hire a person that you feel you couldn't fire.
(i.e.don't hire friends or relatives).

Bottom line is that Grimm should go.

 

[Totally_Red]

It's certainly some scheme in that we ask guys to block 1 on 1 who can't, but that's also talent.

A better OL coach would have this OL playing better, or he'd tell his coach my line can't block the way you want to run your offense.

Agreed! Kurt Warner's ability to read defenses pre-snap and get out of bad plays, his ability to quickly find an open receiver if there was one, and his quick release camouflaged Grimm's mediocre O-line coaching for a few years IMO.

And he really has not been given much young talent to coach in my opinion. Seattle, SF and St. Louis have all been spending high round picks on their O-lines in recent years. The Cardinals have not.

On the other hand, you can question the pricey FA guard signings the past couple years IMO. If Russ is a great coach, why is the play of Synder and Colledge been so mediocre?

 

[conraddobler]

Agreed there's 3 clear ways to improve your OL. Draft and sign better players, coach them up, create a scheme that makes them better. SF did all 3 they drafted better talent, they coached them up, and they brought in a scheme with Harbaugh that makes them better. 2 TE's, power run sets, lots of play action , overloaded lines etc.

I would have done backflips if we'd hired Tom Cable after he got fired, Pete Carroll was smart enough to do so and they'll eventually see a better OL as a result of that once/if their OL ever gets healthy. I watched the guy do miracles in Oakland it's why they hired him a head coach.

Grimm just isn't the guy. We haven't given him great talent to coach, but the talent he does have seems to be so poorly coached.

This.

 

[Totally_Red]

Jurecki just tweeted that Batiste is the lowest ratest NFL tackle and Snyder is the lowest ratest NFL guard by Pro Football Focus. No wonder the Cardinals offensive line is such a disaster area. They pretty much suck across the board.

 

[Russ Smith]

Jurecki just tweeted that Batiste is the lowest ratest NFL tackle and Snyder is the lowest ratest NFL guard by Pro Football Focus. No wonder the Cardinals offensive line is such a disaster area. They pretty much suck across the board.

And Batiste hasn't been our worst tackle the last 2 games, Massie has. Passing wise, not run blocking where I think Massie is actually ok.

As others have said that's where we really miss Levi he was never a great pass blocker but he was a very good run blocking LT.

 

[Skumbag]

more and more patchwork... dumb.

1st & 2nd round picks need to address the line. Kolb does fine when he has the protection. Our run game would increase dramatically if we could fix the line. Everything turns into a winning situation. We have the talent at every position aside from our line. Give it some love and we have a winning team.

 

[Garthshort]

It seems to me that if we threw more dumpoffs and screens, that it would slow down the pass rush. That's if we can't figure out a way to give the OL help in pass pro.

 

[kerouac9]

After watching the NFL for almost a season and a half now, it is clear to see that having even an average OT on your team is a huge asset. and something most teams would kill for at this point in the NFL's history. The OT's of the league as a whole SUCK. For all the crap Levi gets and it is deserved some times he is at minimum an average LT IMO. You don't move that to RG, a position that a player has never played his whole career.

I also think we all need to come to the realization that unless something huge happens to change the coaches and scouts minds our starting OL next year is already set in stone - Levi, Colledge, Sendlein, Snyder, and Massie. Of the 5 the best odds for placing your money on a possible upgrade is Snyder, but even those odds are slim.

I also think Heap and LSH doesn't get enough credit. They go down to injury and the OL looks far worse the last two weeks. We may not chip enough on the edges, but we were doing it way more often then we ever have before and Heap and LSH(on 3rd down) were EXCELLENT at it. The OL has missed there presence big time IMO.

This. The offensive tackles coming out of college now are just of inferior quality to what we saw a generation ago. Ogden, Pace, Bosselli, Walter Jones, heck, even Flozell Adams. This isn't a roster of guys who we're cherry-picking over two decades; they were all playing at the same time.

There are two elite offensive tackles in the NFL (Long and Thomas), and a handful of average ones. The rest are just guys waiting to lose their jobs.

 

[JeffGollin]

There are 3 variables that govern the fortunes of our OL.

1. Recognizing and doing something about the problem.

2. Developing existing talent.

3. Evaluating outside talent.

Frankly, I have no clue about which of the above 3 variables (if not all three at once) are tripping us up. Examples: Leonard Davis and Levi. Did we draft the wrong guys? Or did we fail to develop Levi and Big to their full potential?

I dunno, but I do think our OL problems are rooted somewhere among the 3.

It also suggests we (1) have to place a higher priority toward upgrading the OL, (2) do a better job of evaluating OL talent and (3) teach and develop better. This in turn implies a change in behavior by the FO and changes in coaching personnel either by addition and/or subtraction

 

[Duckjake]

This. The offensive tackles coming out of college now are just of inferior quality to what we saw a generation ago. Ogden, Pace, Bosselli, Walter Jones, heck, even Flozell Adams. This isn't a roster of guys who we're cherry-picking over two decades; they were all playing at the same time.

There are two elite offensive tackles in the NFL (Long and Thomas), and a handful of average ones. The rest are just guys waiting to lose their jobs.

What this also says is that there are no coaches in the NFL capable of developing players coming out of college today into top level Offensive Tackles and in fact there may never have been or that it simply cannot be done? The successful offensive line coaches must be the ones who can, like a top basketball coach, get their line to function as a team.

Because of that I still believe continuity is more important than talent especially when the talent level is relatively equal as it is in the NFL for the most part. The Cardinals best offensive lines were the ones before free agency when it was easier to keep the players together. The line that allowed only a 2.2 sack % in 1975 was in their 3rd year together but only had draft picks #43, 110, 189, 261, and 364. All but Roger Finnie were drafted by St.Louis. They played together from 1972 to 1978.

The line from the 1960s: Bob Reynolds 9 years with St.Louis, Irv Goode 12 years, Bob DeMarco 9 years, Ken Gray 12 years and Ernie McMillan 14 years. They played together for 7 years. Those 60s teams had 5 winning seasons in 8 years. Something the team has not done since.

The core of the Cards offensive line also stayed the same from the end of 2007 through 2009. The most successful years the Cards had since the 1970s.

Of course being the Cardinals nothing they do is normal so even though they had the same offensive line for several years with Lomax, Neil was getting sacked once every ten times he attempted to pass yet still threw for over 4500 yards in 1984 and led the NFL in passing yards in 1987.

Then the team had 3 former 1st round selections on the offensive line in 2002 and still finished 29th in scoring and allowed 41 sacks.

 

[john h]

For next season, do we just have to bring back Levi as the RT or RG, depending on whether Snyder or Massie plays better. Hopefully, that fixes the right side of the OL, and then we draft a LT with our first or second round pick. And my assumption is that Sendlein and Colledge are keepers. I know that there are posters who disagree about both Sendlein and Colledge. And I'm hoping that Kelemete challenges for a starting spot. Is this too simplified?

All I know is that our current OT's are really really bad. Will they get better? From what I have seen I sure doubt it. The left tackle gets beat over and over largely by the defender out running him and around him to devastate the QB. If he is that slow all the experience in the world will not help him. We might as well put someone permanently in the backfield with the QB to help him with the on rushing defender.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I really appreciate all the work you guys put into trying to figure out how to fix the Oline. However, Grimm and Co. never do any of it. Sad.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I really appreciate all the work you guys put into trying to figure out how to fix the Oline. However, Grimm and Co. never do any of it. Sad.

Sure, but it's a lot easier for us. We start out ahead of Grimm because he's already shown us at least one way to not fix the o line.

Steve

 

[conraddobler]

The first step to fixing the o line would probably be to get someone on the scouting/coaching staff who knows how to spot talent in that area.

What hurts is that some teams can fill out most of the line with 3rd and 4th round choices and still field a respectable line.

Our first rounders barely work out if at all.

 

[JeffGollin]

Just a thought but...

It occurs to me that, offensively (in contrast to Horton's defense), we've never decided on a single system, inside of which, we'd bring in players who'd fit a specific profile.

Instead, we've tended to be opportunistic, acquiring Kolb because he was the best overall QB who was available or Beanie (because he was a big guy) or R Williams (because he was shifty). But none of these guys were necessarily great fits within a predetermined system.

Are we a west coast offense? A vertical team? A grind it out power running team? Who are we?

My point is that we've stocked our OL in a similar fashion - kind of a willy-nilly - "let's grab this guy because he looks good" approach instead of first figuring out: What kind of LG or LT do we ideally need to make our running and passing attack go? (How big? How nimble? How smart? How tough?)

Result - a patchwork of linemen and skilled offensive players - some talented, some MEH - but not necessarily a winning combination.

Thoughts?

 

[kerouac9]

It occurs to me that, offensively (in contrast to Horton's defense), we've never decided on a single system, inside of which, we'd bring in players who'd fit a specific profile.

Instead, we've tended to be opportunistic, acquiring Kolb because he was the best overall QB who was available or Beanie (because he was a big guy) or R Williams (because he was shifty). But none of these guys were necessarily great fits within a predetermined system.

Are we a west coast offense? A vertical team? A grind it out power running team? Who are we?

My point is that we've stocked our OL in a similar fashion - kind of a willy-nilly - "let's grab this guy because he looks good" approach instead of first figuring out: What kind of LG or LT do we ideally need to make our running and passing attack go? (How big? How nimble? How smart? How tough?)

Result - a patchwork of linemen and skilled offensive players - some talented, some MEH - but not necessarily a winning combination.

Thoughts?

Hogwash. We've always favored big, lumbering OT and more lithe OGs who can pull into the gap left or right of tackle. That's why Lutui was such an unfortunate fit here.

We run a lot more power-O concepts than we do zone reads in the running game. In the passing game, we run a variation of the run-n-shoot with deep and intermediate routes.

 

[Chopper0080]

It occurs to me that, offensively (in contrast to Horton's defense), we've never decided on a single system, inside of which, we'd bring in players who'd fit a specific profile.

Instead, we've tended to be opportunistic, acquiring Kolb because he was the best overall QB who was available or Beanie (because he was a big guy) or R Williams (because he was shifty). But none of these guys were necessarily great fits within a predetermined system.

Are we a west coast offense? A vertical team? A grind it out power running team? Who are we?

My point is that we've stocked our OL in a similar fashion - kind of a willy-nilly - "let's grab this guy because he looks good" approach instead of first figuring out: What kind of LG or LT do we ideally need to make our running and passing attack go? (How big? How nimble? How smart? How tough?)

Result - a patchwork of linemen and skilled offensive players - some talented, some MEH - but not necessarily a winning combination.

Thoughts?

You are very accurate in your assertion and it is true. We lack a strong, experienced and dedicated offensive mind to design, install, and adjust our offensive scheme. Whis is a good head coach, I doubt his overall time available to install and develop an offensive scheme. It is one reason the Cardinals would benefit from bringing in an experienced offensive coordinator who brings in a scheme and understands what peices are needed to make that scheme work. It just seems the Cardinals are unwilling to make that transition on offense in contrast to the change they made on defense.

 

[Chopper0080]

Hogwash. We've always favored big, lumbering OT and more lithe OGs who can pull into the gap left or right of tackle. That's why Lutui was such an unfortunate fit here.

We run a lot more power-O concepts than we do zone reads in the running game. In the passing game, we run a variation of the run-n-shoot with deep and intermediate routes.

This is true, but Kelemente might be the first OG we have brought in who is athletic enough to pull. We have two finesse OGs in Snyder and Colledge who are unable to either pull or drive defenders off the ball.

We have done a good job at bringing in power OTs, however they struggle in pass protection on intermediate to deep routes which makes them a bit of a poor fit.

My take from this is we don't have a clear or precise idea of what we want to run on offense and so we run two counter productive schemes. If we were a more established run team, you could maintain the play action deep passing game would help the bigger OTs in pass pro. But we aren't, and it is because Whis wants to spread the field. This is ok, but a spread attack relies on the ability to run zone schemes, draws, and screens out of the spread formations which relies on more athletic offensive linemen which we don't have starting (though Kelemente, Massie, and Potter fit).

My issue with our offense is the same issue I has with our "hybrid" 3-4, 4-3 defense. It is better to be really good at one thing than be very average at two.