Is Jeff Hornacek the right choice for the Suns?

[Phrazbit]

Plus players always feel more motivated to play defense when they feel like they are also involved in the offense. Doesn't mean everyone has to shoot the ball, at least if they get their touches.

The Suns have 5 guys averaging double digits, 7 putting up over 8 a game, they have one of the highest scoring benches in the NBA. The idea that guys are getting deprived of touches a flat out falsehood, in reality the Suns are one of the most balanced scoring teams in the NBA. They just happen to have a lot of guys who prefer to have their touches come off the dribble and in isolation.

As for it being part of the defensive problems... please. This team stunk defensively back when they were the kings of ball sharing. The Suns struggle on D because they have a lot of bad defenders and are weak on the boards. Some of our worst defenders are also the champions of the ball-hoggery that people are complaining about, so thinking that their lack of effort on D is somehow a symptom of their involvement on offense is completely and utterly baseless.

I'd prefer the offense to be more open and have more flow but IMO its a roster issue not a coaching one... and one that I am not willing to crucify the front office for given how putrid the situation was a mere 18 months ago.

All in all, this is a laughable topic. A fickle group whom if they'd been told back in October of 2013 that Horny would be 72-52 thus far in his coaching career they'd be floored. Its ironic that if Horny had won half the games he has won so far that he'd be getting a lot more patience from the fans.

 

[Griffin]

FWIW, Coro had Hornacek's quote on pick-and-rolls in late-game situations:

"If the guy sets a good screen, then they're either going to get a mismatch switch or they're going to double a guard and that's when our guard needs to trust his teammates and throw it to the roller," Hornacek said. "Now you've got a four-on-three. The pick-and-roll, if you go into it saying, 'How can I force an advantage for our team?' But if we want to come off there thinking, 'I want to be the guy who comes off and shoots it,' then it's going to be awfully difficult because then they'll double it. The end of the game, it's got to be an attitude of, 'Not necessarily, it's got to be me. Let's just win the game, whoever it is.' "

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...ggie-bullock-finds-good-fit-phoenix/21899115/

 

[sunsfan88]

Hornacek has said stuff like that numerous times this season to the media. He's said how we need to share the ball and guys need to stop trying to take over and need to spread the ball etc.

The problem is that it doesn't show up on the court.

Either Hornacek doesn't give the same message he gives the media to his own players or his players have tuned him out and just do whatever they want.

Our end of QTR execution is horrendous. Without looking I can say that the Suns have to be among NBA worst 5 teams in the last 3 mins of quarters.

 

[Chaz]

The Suns also have the 4th youngest team in the league right now.
Coaching is a process not an instant results type of business, especially with a young team.

 

[Phrazbit]

Hornacek has said stuff like that numerous times this season to the media. He's said how we need to share the ball and guys need to stop trying to take over and need to spread the ball etc.

The problem is that it doesn't show up on the court.

Either Hornacek doesn't give the same message he gives the media to his own players or his players have tuned him out and just do whatever they want.

Our end of QTR execution is horrendous. Without looking I can say that the Suns have to be among NBA worst 5 teams in the last 3 mins of quarters.

Without looking I can say you're wrong.

But I will look anyone just to prove it.

Suns rank 14th in the league in scoring differential in the final minutes of close games.

http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/clutch/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

But hey, as usual, lets not let facts get in the way of a nonsense narrative.

 

[Rab]

The Suns have 5 guys averaging double digits, 7 putting up over 8 a game, they have one of the highest scoring benches in the NBA. The idea that guys are getting deprived of touches a flat out falsehood, in reality the Suns are one of the most balanced scoring teams in the NBA. They just happen to have a lot of guys who prefer to have their touches come off the dribble and in isolation.

As for it being part of the defensive problems... please. This team stunk defensively back when they were the kings of ball sharing. The Suns struggle on D because they have a lot of bad defenders and are weak on the boards. Some of our worst defenders are also the champions of the ball-hoggery that people are complaining about, so thinking that their lack of effort on D is somehow a symptom of their involvement on offense is completely and utterly baseless.

I'd prefer the offense to be more open and have more flow but IMO its a roster issue not a coaching one... and one that I am not willing to crucify the front office for given how putrid the situation was a mere 18 months ago.

All in all, this is a laughable topic. A fickle group whom if they'd been told back in October of 2013 that Horny would be 72-52 thus far in his coaching career they'd be floored. Its ironic that if Horny had won half the games he has won so far that he'd be getting a lot more patience from the fans.

Bravo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Errntknght]

Without looking I can say you're wrong.

But I will look anyone just to prove it.

Suns rank 14th in the league in scoring differential in the final minutes of close games.

http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/clutch/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

But hey, as usual, lets not let facts get in the way of a nonsense narrative.

Thanks for posting that site link! They don't define what 'clutch' means but I'm guessing it means during the last 5 minutes of the games where the score was within 5 points. Aha, clicking on the 'gear' I see you can pick how you choose to define it and its set at 5 and 5. I haven't figured out the MIN column yet - what does that mean? Ah, nice, it sorts on any column. No differentials but I see you can get the teams' opponents numbers.
All kinds of filters. I'm going to waste lots of time with this.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Thanks for posting that site link! They don't define what 'clutch' means but I'm guessing it means during the last 5 minutes of the games where the score was within 5 points. Aha, clicking on the 'gear' I see you can pick how you choose to define it and its set at 5 and 5. I haven't figured out the MIN column yet - what does that mean? Ah, nice, it sorts on any column. No differentials but I see you can get the teams' opponents numbers.
All kinds of filters. I'm going to waste lots of time with this.

Interesting link indeed. The one anomaly I see is Houston. They're second worst in differential (over 17 games no less) despite being a top 10 team in the league (currently tied for 7th).

 

[sunsfan88]

Miles Plumlee unhappy with reduced playing time, demands trade:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12190738/phoenix-suns-looking-trade-miles-plumlee

Archie Goodwin unhappy with role on team, playing time and opportunity:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/sto...d-jam-gerald-green-isaiah-thomas-goran-dragic

Now its Anthony Tolliver's turn:

"I never got an opportunity to show what I can do in Phoenix and never got into a rhythm and was never really able to do anything," Tolliver said.

"I never quite got an understanding of why I didn't get an opportunity. They brought me there for a reason and they knew what I was capable of doing. I never got a chance to do that. I'm not offended by it. I didn't lose any confidence over it. It just was a matter of Coach (Jeff Hornacek) had a preference to play the guys he had coached the previous year."

"There is one big difference between the two teams," Tolliver said. "The Suns' system is more geared to playing one-on-one, and that's really not the type of player I am. Here, it is geared more toward ball movement and sharing the ball. I can automatically feel the difference. For a player like me, that's where I have to be to be successful. At the end of the day, maybe it just wasn't a good fit."

The Suns have the lowest percentage of assisted field goals made in the NBA because their top four scorers create their own shots –driving point guards and Morris in isolation.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...etroits-turnaround-after-suns-trade/22024385/

God I wish we could be more geared toward ball movement and sharing the ball too Players on the freaking Pistons prefer their system over our iso one on one stuff!

 

[BC867]

Miles Plumlee unhappy with reduced playing time, demands trade:



Archie Goodwin unhappy with role on team, playing time and opportunity:



Now its Anthony Tolliver's turn:

Which is why I referred to Jeff's coaching earlier this season as pitting his players against one another.

This lack of building a "team" is now catching up with him. Publicly.

I never thought I would turn on Jeff Hornacek, but I thoroughly disapprove of his performance this season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Which is why I referred to Jeff's coaching earlier this season as pitting his players against one another.

This lack of building a "team" is now catching up with him. Publicly.

I never thought I would turn on Jeff Hornacek, but I thoroughly disapprove of his performance this season.

Don't use 88's spin as proof, read the entire articles not just the loaded titles he supplied. There is truth in each title but in each case he's taking a molehill and building it up.

When you have 14 players, many of whom expect playing time, just what exactly is the coach supposed to do? There's only so many minutes available and Bledsoe, Dragic, IT, Green, Twin1, Twin2, Tucker, Len, Plumlee, the other Dragic, Warren, Goodwin, Ennis and Randolph all want their share of the minutes. I'm pretty sure that every player I just mentioned has either hinted about wanting more minutes or has had a champion here on the board demanding he be given more time.

And Tolliver knows very well why he didn't get his chance. He injured his hand and could neither catch nor shoot the ball until after the season started. By the time he could start to fill his role we were already up against it and in need of victories. Jeff kept giving him spot minutes but the team usually struggled while he was out there. I think it's more than a little disingenuous to now use Tolliver's complaint against Jeff given the fact that most on this board screamed every time he took the court.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Don't use 88's spin as proof, read the entire articles not just the loaded titles he supplied. There is truth in each title but in each case he's taking a molehill and building it up.

When you have 14 players, many of whom expect playing time, just what exactly is the coach supposed to do? There's only so many minutes available and Bledsoe, Dragic, IT, Green, Twin1, Twin2, Tucker, Len, Plumlee, the other Dragic, Warren, Goodwin, Ennis and Randolph all want their share of the minutes. I'm pretty sure that every player I just mentioned has either hinted about wanting more minutes or has had a champion here on the board demanding he be given more time.

And Tolliver knows very well why he didn't get his chance. He injured his hand and could neither catch nor shoot the ball until after the season started. By the time he could start to fill his role we were already up against it and in need of victories. Jeff kept giving him spot minutes but the team usually struggled while he was out there. I think it's more than a little disingenuous to now use Tolliver's complaint against Jeff given the fact that most on this board screamed every time he took the court.

Steve

I see your point. But I don't see it as an excuse for the Suns. I see it as poor management. Too many nondescript (marginal undersized) players competing against each other and overlapping into other positions from the start to finish of the game.

The Front Office created this bowl of stew and now, as expected, the players have begun to react. We have yet to see the worst of that.

 

[sunsfan88]

I see your point. But I don't see it as an excuse for the Suns. I see it as poor management. Too many nondescript (marginal undersized) players competing against each other and overlapping into other positions from the start to finish of the game.

The Front Office created this bowl of stew and now, as expected, the players have begun to react. We have yet to see the worst of that.

The part I found most interest was Tolliver's remark about the contrast in playing styles between the Pistons & the Suns.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The part I found most interest was Tolliver's remark about the contrast in playing styles between the Pistons & the Suns.

How about the way he pointed out that the young players actually listen to the coaching staff in Detroit, suggesting (to me, anyway) that isn't the case with our young guys. My guess, he was specifically talking about Goodwin. I say that because Archie is the one that seems to be knocking on the door but still not getting in and it is the very same complaint that Calipari had about him in Kentucky.

Steve

 

[hcsilla]

I say that because Archie is the one that seems to be knocking on the door but still not getting in and it is the very same complaint that Calipari had about him in Kentucky.

He started and played a lot for Calipari.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He started and played a lot for Calipari.

Yes and Calipari was tearing out his hair almost every game, especially the first 2 months of the season. He had that classic interview where he talked about how frustrating it was to try and coach players that wouldn't listen and that he was going to bring in a class the next season and none of his current starters were guaranteed jobs. It was clear from his interviews that he was primarily frustrated with Goodwin.

Steve

 

[JS22]

This thread is great comedy.

 

[jandaman]

Miles Plumlee unhappy with reduced playing time, demands trade:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12190738/phoenix-suns-looking-trade-miles-plumlee

Archie Goodwin unhappy with role on team, playing time and opportunity:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/sto...d-jam-gerald-green-isaiah-thomas-goran-dragic

Now its Anthony Tolliver's turn:



God I wish we could be more geared toward ball movement and sharing the ball too Players on the freaking Pistons prefer their system over our iso one on one stuff!

Agree with Tolliver.

You'd be lying if you say the Suns play "good" team work type of basketball.
The Suns have very good individual players that get by due to their individual skills.
Whether its Bledsoe penetrating through traffic..
Whether its Markieff being hot from mid range..
Whether its Dragic using his blistering pace to finish in transition..
Whether its Gerald Green hitting wild shots from anywhere in half court..
Whether its Thomas manoeuvring himself in the paint for a layup or pull up for a 3pt shot...

The Suns have a LOT of individual, isolation plays...
Currently it works as the team is well above 0.500... so there is no rush to change it.

But I've been watching other teams as well..
Warriors : They have 2 All-Stars but their role players sacrifice shots to get the ball to the most effective player. Kerr has done a GREAT job.

Spurs: The current benchmark to ball rotation and using X/O plays to get the best shot possible.

Hawks: Wow, they tend to make the EXTRA pass on a lot of plays, not just the guards but the big men don't hesitate to rotate the ball.
They don't care who shoots or who scores, who ever has the most open look will get it.


Tolliver in the Pistons is benefiting because Van Gundy loves his stretch 4s and his dominant Centers, as showed in his Magic days. I still feel that Jennings take too many shots, but he has improved this year. Losing Josh Smith was significant in upgrading their chemistry and team work rate.



Hornacek is a GOOD coach, but this season he is being bailed out a lot by the individual skills/capabilities of his players.
On some of his post game feedbacks, especially after a loss, he mentions things that implies some players do their own thing and ignore his direction too. I think he is too nice, needs a mean streak perhaps.

 

[elindholm]

This thread is great comedy.

Speaking of great comedy, I just watched the Seinfeld episode that your avatar is taken from.

 

[Mainstreet]

Speaking of great comedy, I just watched the Seinfeld episode that your avatar is taken from.

One of my favorite short skits from Seinfeld involving Elaine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghCTZF61ey0

 

[JS22]

Speaking of great comedy, I just watched the Seinfeld episode that your avatar is taken from.

Cooooooostanza!

 

[sunsfan88]

Agree with Tolliver.

You'd be lying if you say the Suns play "good" team work type of basketball.
The Suns have very good individual players that get by due to their individual skills.
Whether its Bledsoe penetrating through traffic..
Whether its Markieff being hot from mid range..
Whether its Dragic using his blistering pace to finish in transition..
Whether its Gerald Green hitting wild shots from anywhere in half court..
Whether its Thomas manoeuvring himself in the paint for a layup or pull up for a 3pt shot...

The Suns have a LOT of individual, isolation plays...
Currently it works as the team is well above 0.500... so there is no rush to change it.

But I've been watching other teams as well..
Warriors : They have 2 All-Stars but their role players sacrifice shots to get the ball to the most effective player. Kerr has done a GREAT job.

Spurs: The current benchmark to ball rotation and using X/O plays to get the best shot possible.

Hawks: Wow, they tend to make the EXTRA pass on a lot of plays, not just the guards but the big men don't hesitate to rotate the ball.
They don't care who shoots or who scores, who ever has the most open look will get it.


Tolliver in the Pistons is benefiting because Van Gundy loves his stretch 4s and his dominant Centers, as showed in his Magic days. I still feel that Jennings take too many shots, but he has improved this year. Losing Josh Smith was significant in upgrading their chemistry and team work rate.



Hornacek is a GOOD coach, but this season he is being bailed out a lot by the individual skills/capabilities of his players.
On some of his post game feedbacks, especially after a loss, he mentions things that implies some players do their own thing and ignore his direction too. I think he is too nice, needs a mean streak perhaps.

Yup, I feel this also especially the bolded.

 

[sunsfan88]

How about the way he pointed out that the young players actually listen to the coaching staff in Detroit, suggesting (to me, anyway) that isn't the case with our young guys. My guess, he was specifically talking about Goodwin. I say that because Archie is the one that seems to be knocking on the door but still not getting in and it is the very same complaint that Calipari had about him in Kentucky.

Steve

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulcoro/status/557624029541335040

 

[AzStevenCal]

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulcoro/status/557624029541335040

I guess I wasn't the only one that read it that way, at least to the extent of it being a jab at our young guys.

Steve

 

[Chaz]

I guess I wasn't the only one that read it that way, at least to the extent of it being a jab at our young guys.

Steve

One of the biggest problems this years Suns have is lack of veteran leadership that I think Frye provided last year. Dragic doesn't seem to have that locker room presence. On the court the emotional leaders seem to be the hotheaded Morris twins.
One of the problems with having such a young team.