Is MJ right?

[sunsfan88]

MJ did say there are only 4 active players that could still be elite in his day: Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, and Nowitzki.

And that itself is another dumb statement by MJ.

Durant, Melo, Chris Paul can all still be elite during his day.

MJ may be the GOAT but he's a horrible talent evaluator. Bobcats fans understand that too.

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't think either one of them is even close to MJ's level, and I am not going to get into Kobe vs. Lebron thing, but I just wanted to point out that Kobe is nearing the end of his career (or at the very least, he is past his prime) while LeBron just entered his prime, so comparing their games against each other this year is kind of silly- of course LeBron is better right now, much like Duncan was better than Hakeem the year Hakeem retired or the year before that.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

lebron took the cavs to the finals in a weak eastern conference. still is weak but not as bad as as before.

Come on..

The Cavs went from the team with the best record in league with 61 wins in 09-10 to the worst in the east the following year (without LeBron) with only 19 wins. That is a drop of 42 wins and that was with almost all of the same players that were LeBron's supporting cast the year prior. Point is that LeBron had a terrible supporting cast so even getting to the Finals is a testament in itself.

A solid comparison would be to look at how the Bulls fared in 93-94 while Jordan was playing baseball. That team went 55-27 in the regular season, swept their first round series and took their second round series to 7 games before finally losing in game 7.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Jordan would average 50 in this watered down pansy-ass version of the NBA.

Can you imagine a defender guarding him without hand-checking? Without smashing their elbow into his back in the post?

 

[95pro]

Come on..

The Cavs went from the team with the best record in league with 61 wins in 09-10 to the worst in the east the following year (without LeBron) with only 19 wins. That is a drop of 42 wins and that was with almost all of the same players that were LeBron's supporting cast the year prior. Point is that LeBron had a terrible supporting cast so even getting to the Finals is a testament in itself.

A solid comparison would be to look at how the Bulls fared in 93-94 while Jordan was playing baseball. That team went 55-27 in the regular season, swept their first round series and took their second round series to 7 games before finally losing in game 7.

That all may be true but was still a weak ass eastern conference. Number one seed was Detroit with an old webber and Wallace. Think they still had billips, rip, and prince.

Other non worthy teams iirc were nets bullets Toronto. Anyone remember their star studded rosters??

I'm sure bulls and heat were in there too.

 

[desertdawg]

Really? Of Kobe can make Bron his "beehazzle" anytime
He wants, how come Bron has taken a dump in Kobe's face, complete with corn and peanuts in their last five of six games where the games
Actually counted in the regular season? I mean... Did u watch the two games
They played against each other this year?!

That All Star game is the only time both Lebron and Kobe have the same talent levels to work with, bronbron has had the better stacked team since he got to Miami. The last 6 minutes of the All Star game is when Kobe began to challenge Lebron, and Lebron did what he always does....mailed it in and then acted like it was nothing.

Kobe made it something once he started smothering babybron, and lil bronbron didn't want none, just like always. Lebron is the more skilled and younger player, still in his prome too. Why wouldn't he want to take the crown from Kobe on that kind of stage??? It's pretty simple, Lebron doesn't get off on the one on one man battles, and he's lucky Jordan aint still around because then we'd really see babybron running from some battles.

 

[SirStefan32]

That All Star game is the only time both Lebron and Kobe have the same talent levels to work with, bronbron has had the better stacked team since he got to Miami. The last 6 minutes of the All Star game is when Kobe began to challenge Lebron, and Lebron did what he always does....mailed it in and then acted like it was nothing.

Kobe made it something once he started smothering babybron, and lil bronbron didn't want none, just like always. Lebron is the more skilled and younger player, still in his prome too. Why wouldn't he want to take the crown from Kobe on that kind of stage??? It's pretty simple, Lebron doesn't get off on the one on one man battles, and he's lucky Jordan aint still around because then we'd really see babybron running from some battles.

Because it's an all-star game. Guys are supposed to be having fun out there. LeBron doesn't need to take the crown from Kobe at an all-star game- he's taken that crown from Kobe last year. Nobody in their right mind thinks Kobe is a better player than LeBron right now. I don't think LeBron (in his prime) is clearly a better player than Kobe was in his prime, but to claim Kobe is a better player now is insane.

 

[slinslin]

That All Star game is the only time both Lebron and Kobe have the same talent levels to work with, bronbron has had the better stacked team since he got to Miami. The last 6 minutes of the All Star game is when Kobe began to challenge Lebron, and Lebron did what he always does....mailed it in and then acted like it was nothing.

Kobe made it something once he started smothering babybron, and lil bronbron didn't want none, just like always. Lebron is the more skilled and younger player, still in his prome too. Why wouldn't he want to take the crown from Kobe on that kind of stage??? It's pretty simple, Lebron doesn't get off on the one on one man battles, and he's lucky Jordan aint still around because then we'd really see babybron running from some battles.

This is beyond funny.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=bryanko01

Head to Head numbers
Lebron 27.9ppg 7.7rpg 7.3apg 2.1spg 0.7bpg 46.1%FG 13 Wins 6 Losses
Kobe 25.3ppg 4.9rpg 4.9apg 1.2spg 0.2bpg 41.9%FG 6 Wins 13 Losses

And these numbers include matchups when Lebron was a rookie and includes Kobe's entire prime. Yet it is absolutely one-sided.

 

[desertdawg]

This is beyond funny.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=bryanko01

Head to Head numbers
Lebron 27.9ppg 7.7rpg 7.3apg 2.1spg 0.7bpg 46.1%FG 13 Wins 6 Losses
Kobe 25.3ppg 4.9rpg 4.9apg 1.2spg 0.2bpg 41.9%FG 6 Wins 13 Losses

And these numbers include matchups when Lebron was a rookie and includes Kobe's entire prime. Yet it is absolutely one-sided.

You know I don't click on your stat fact finds anymore, but my point doesn't have anything to with them anyways. Lebron will never be as good as he can be because he isn't mean enough, he'd rather high five the other team after a good play. Jordan and Kobe danced and bathed in destroying people, they have that killer gene that just isn't in Lebron's make up, Lebron is more of a peaceful hippie than I am. She is the most skilled athelete in the NBA, I'll give her that...but she'd rather hide under the bed then defend the fort, unless they were using paintballs. That's how bronbron plays B-ball, it's like paintball to him, he doesn't like the intensity that comes in the one on one game, his mentals are very friendly. It's like he never had to take his coockies back from some kid growing up, Nike was there drying his tears and giving him all the coockies he could eat.

 

[desertdawg]

Because it's an all-star game. Guys are supposed to be having fun out there. LeBron doesn't need to take the crown from Kobe at an all-star game- he's taken that crown from Kobe last year. Nobody in their right mind thinks Kobe is a better player than LeBron right now. I don't think LeBron (in his prime) is clearly a better player than Kobe was in his prime, but to claim Kobe is a better player now is insane.

I can agree with that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That All Star game is the only time both Lebron and Kobe have the same talent levels to work with, bronbron has had the better stacked team since he got to Miami.

this is complete insane. Bron's team might have more talent this year, but every year previous Kobe's teams were LOADED and Bron still regularly took a dump on his head. I mean, even when Kobe was winning titles and going to 3 straight finals, Bron, with a much worse team on the Cavs was still balling Kobe's ass up.

I mean... Bron's got a "stacked" team in Miami with Wade and Bosh... but Kobe with Pau, Nash and Howard doesn't? Or when Kobe had Pau, Bynum and Odom he didn't? That's ridiculous.

 

[desertdawg]

this is complete insane. Bron's team might have more talent this year, but every year previous Kobe's teams were LOADED and Bron still regularly took a dump on his head. I mean, even when Kobe was winning titles and going to 3 straight finals, Bron, with a much worse team on the Cavs was still balling Kobe's ass up.

I mean... Bron's got a "stacked" team in Miami with Wade and Bosh... but Kobe with Pau, Nash and Howard doesn't? Or when Kobe had Pau, Bynum and Odom he didn't? That's ridiculous.

Kobe would already have 2 rings if he had the Miami team babrybron has, and bronbron aint getting 5 rings either. I think Durant, D-Rose, Paul and Blake will all have something to say about it after Wade is no mas. All them cats got more heart than Lebron, Lebron is just more physically talented, and it aint by a whole bunch. The Spurs might even beat the Meat this year. Dirk has a ring too and did more to get it, with less around him.

 

[SirStefan32]

Kobe would already have 2 rings if he had the Miami team babrybron has, and bronbron aint getting 5 rings either. I think Durant, D-Rose, Paul and Blake will all have something to say about it after Wade is no mas. All them cats got more heart than Lebron, Lebron is just more physically talented, and it aint by a whole bunch. The Spurs might even beat the Meat this year. Dirk has a ring too and did more to get it, with less around him.

I don't know man, I was the biggest LeBron skeptic until he destroyed the Thunder by himself. There is a lot of good teams out there, but LeBron is easily the best player in the league right now. He is just head and shoulders above anyone else.

EDIT:
Also, let's not forget that Kobe had Shaq for some of his titles, and Gasol/ Bynum for others. I'd argue that having Shaq (and even Gasol/ Bynum in Gasol's prime) is hell of a lot better than having an aging Wade and Bosh.

 

[Phrazbit]

Kobe would already have 2 rings if he had the Miami team babrybron has, and bronbron aint getting 5 rings either. I think Durant, D-Rose, Paul and Blake will all have something to say about it after Wade is no mas. All them cats got more heart than Lebron, Lebron is just more physically talented, and it aint by a whole bunch. The Spurs might even beat the Meat this year. Dirk has a ring too and did more to get it, with less around him.

Lol, give me a break. If you put LeBron on those teams with Shaq they would have won every single season, same with Pau and Bynum.

LeBron played most of his career with one of the worst supporting casts in the league.

LeBron is better by a very significant margin than Kobe is or was at any point in his entire career. Its not even close.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't know man, I was the biggest LeBron skeptic until he destroyed the Thunder by himself. There is a lot of good teams out there, but LeBron is easily the best player in the league right now. He is just head and shoulders above anyone else.

EDIT:
Also, let's not forget that Kobe had Shaq for some of his titles, and Gasol/ Bynum for others. I'd argue that having Shaq (and even Gasol/ Bynum in Gasol's prime) is hell of a lot better than having an aging Wade and Bosh.

And Kobe also had Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Ron Harper, Robert Horry, Brian Shaw, Trevor Ariza, Jordan Farmar, Lamar Odom, Ron Artest and a host of former stars on the decline such as AC Green, Mitch Richmond and JR Rider.

Steve

 

[Chris_Sanders]

To say that teams didn't care about defense back when these guys played center:

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dikembe Mutombo
Patrick Ewing
Shaquille O'Neal
Bill Laimbeer

Is just silly. If you went to the paint, you got hammered or Mutombo was waiving his finger in your face. Why the heck you think Barkley, Malone, and Jordan were so good at post up fall aways?

Sheesh I am the old man trying to explain how hard things back were when I was a kid...

 

[Gee!]

To say that teams didn't care about defense back when these guys played center:

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dikembe Mutombo
Patrick Ewing
Shaquille O'Neal
Bill Laimbeer

Is just silly. If you went to the paint, you got hammered or Mutombo was waiving his finger in your face. Why the heck you think Barkley, Malone, and Jordan were so good at post up fall aways?

Sheesh I am the old man trying to explain how hard things back were when I was a kid...

Alonzo Mourning too

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Alonzo Mourning too

Great call. Defense was better back then in the paint and it was harder to get there

 

[slinslin]

Great call. Defense was better back then in the paint and it was harder to get there

It was not. Try to be objective for once instead of making arguments based on your subjective feelings.

Average league scoring in 1982 -> 108.6ppg
Average league scoring in 1992 -> 105.3ppg
Average league scoring in 2002 -> 95.1ppg
Average league scoring in 2012 -> 97.8ppg

FG% was higher by about 3-4% too (so much for it being harder to score in the paint) , 3pt% was lower, FT% about the same.

Pace was astronomically faster than it is today or during the last 10 years.

Everything contradicts your statements.

Just in general NBA statistics from the 80s and early 90s are overexaggerated.

 

[slinslin]

To say that teams didn't care about defense back when these guys played center:

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dikembe Mutombo
Patrick Ewing
Shaquille O'Neal
Bill Laimbeer

Is just silly. If you went to the paint, you got hammered or Mutombo was waiving his finger in your face. Why the heck you think Barkley, Malone, and Jordan were so good at post up fall aways?

Sheesh I am the old man trying to explain how hard things back were when I was a kid...

LOL!

1. Shaquille O'Neal is not part of that era, neither is Mutombo(drafted in 1991) or Alonzo Mourning really. Anyway are we talking about the same Alonzo Mourning that was barely 6'10 and usually got his ass kicked by Luc Longley?
2. Tim Duncan is better than everyone you mentioned.
3. Dwight Howard is a much better defender than someone like Patrick Ewing.
4. Shaq played in the modern era.
5. Don't make it sound like Bill Laimbeer would be anything special in this era. He is no better than Joakim Noah, Bogut, Chandler etc and not even close to say Ben Wallace. Laimbeer was basically a 10/10 guy with about 1 block per game.
6. Kevin Garnett is every bit as good a defender as David Robinson and pretty much the same size.

Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O'Neal, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Ben Wallace >>>>>>>> Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Laimbeer, Mutombo

 

[Cheesebeef]

LOL!

1. Shaquille O'Neal is not part of that era, neither is Mutombo(drafted in 1991) or Alonzo Mourning really. Anyway are we talking about the same Alonzo Mourning that was barely 6'10 and usually got his ass kicked by Luc Longley?

uh... wha? Jordan won his titles and dominated in the 90's... correct? Shaq, Mutombo and Mourning were all in the league by 1992... correct? Only in Slin's world can guys who played 6-7 years during Jordan's main run through the league not be part of the same era.

 

[Neo]

He is as right on this as this as he was on his decision to draft Kwame Brown with the first pick.

 

[Phrazbit]

The point about Laimbeer was not that he was some shot blocking extraordinaire but they way he played "defense" would get him ejected within 10 minutes of tip off every single night under today's rules.

And its really funny that you claim Mutombo (who won multiple DPOY awards during that era) was not part of Jordan's era.

 

[slinslin]

The greatest statistical seasons Jordan had were all before Mutombo was even drafted.

Also Olajuwon and Shaq's career only really overlapped for 2 years for example before Olajuwon was a wreck.

The point is that Chris Sanders just randomly brought up a set of players to represent an era that were not even in the same era.

Laimbeer retired in 94. His best season while Mutombo, Shaq and Mourning were in the league was 9ppg/5rpg.

And in any way those centers that apparently Jordan had to face were no better than Duncan, Shaq, Yao, Garnett, Dwight, Wallace, Gasol and so on.

And lets not forget that after those big names the center position in the 90s was extremely poor. Yes there were a few good ones but then there was nothing. Greg Ostertag for crying out loud might have been a top 10 center during Jordan's era which is unthinkable today when there are about two dozen quality centers in the league at least.

 

[Phrazbit]

The greatest statistical seasons Jordan had were all before Mutombo was even drafted.

Also Olajuwon and Shaq's career only really overlapped for 2 years for example before Olajuwon was a wreck.

The point is that Chris Sanders just randomly brought up a set of players to represent an era that were not even in the same era.

Laimbeer retired in 94. His best season while Mutombo, Shaq and Mourning were in the league was 9ppg/5rpg.

And in any way those centers that apparently Jordan had to face were no better than Duncan, Shaq, Yao, Garnett, Dwight, Wallace, Gasol and so on.

And lets not forget that after those big names the center position in the 90s was extremely poor. Yes there were a few good ones but then there was nothing. Greg Ostertag for crying out loud might have been a top 10 center during Jordan's era which is unthinkable today when there are about two dozen quality centers in the league at least.

lol!!! Yao?!?! Gasol is hardly a defensive stalwart. Garnett? If you're expanding the list to include power forwards then you have to apply it to the 80s and 90s too.

Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq any of those guys during their primes would be far and away the best center in the NBA right now. Dwight is more reminiscent of your much bashed Alonzo Mourning than he is to any of those top tier centers. And we are talking about "Jordan's" era as a dominant player, which clearly allows for anyone from ~'86-'98 to enter the discussion. So someone like Shaq (who played in 5 all-star games in that stretch) and Mutombo (who won 3 DPOY awards during that time) would clearly be in the conversation.

And its really funny that you are trying to claim the dropoff at center was so huge back then compared to now when there is supposedly lots of quality centers. The position is dying in the current NBA, they cant get enough quality players at the position to even keep it in the all-star balloting. You've got seriously flawed players like Brook Lopez and Hibbert getting max deals because teams are so desperate for a functional true center.