Is Robert Saver Worse than the Bidwells?

[AsUdUdE]

Think about this for second..

The Bidwells are bad, they are cheap, and seem to put money over winning...

But Sarver took a team that could have won it all for YEARS to come and single hndedly DESTROYED the team..

The perfect example was the Kurt Thomas trade, a trade that was done STRICTLY to avoid paying a little Luxury Tax at the the time, and the fact that it has come back to hurt us and most likely send us packing int he first round, is further proof..

Add that to EVERYTHING he has done whether it is selling picks, to not getting invovled in F.A. (Other than to sign Marcus BAnks)... and that is a problem...

HIll and Gireckek do NOT count because they would have come here if Marge Schott owned the team...

And for everyone who points out that the Shaq deal shows he is not cheap, is not an argument because the amount of revenue he brings more than offsets his salery.. (Which he would have already paid for Marion)... Case and point, we could have gotten PAu Gasol, but he wouldn't have been marketable, and Sarver wouldn't have gone for it...

While the Bidwells have been bad, they haven't single handedly destroyed a contending team like Saver and therefore, IMO... Saver is a worse owner than the Bidwells...

And who the hell would have thought that the Bidwells wouldn't be the worst owners in Phoenix?

 

[Cheesebeef]

they're both owners who value money over winning. who's worse? who cares?

 

[Darth Llama]

The Bidwells are bad, they are cheap, and seem to put money over winning.

Stopped reading there. You might know a bit about Sarver but you clearly know nothing about the Bidwills.

 

[AsUdUdE]

Stopped reading there. You might know a bit about Sarver but you clearly know nothing about the Bidwills.

You mean they AREN'T Cheap? OR they seem to put money over winning most of the time?

Since you CLEARLY know about the bidwells.. please explain...

 

[boondockdrunk]

they're both owners who value money over winning. who's worse? who cares?

Amen!

 

[TucsonDevil]

This is just laughable. Sarver tries to win, even though money is still a factor.

 

[Darth Llama]

You mean they AREN'T Cheap? OR they seem to put money over winner most of the time?

Since you CLEARLY know about the bidwells.. please explain...

Already been done a million times in the Cardinals forum where this debate belongs. To bullet a few points though, The Bidwills have changed considerably in the last several years. They have paid players top dollar, paid premium money to coaches, fired Denny Green even though it meant paying him millions to sit at home, funding the new stadium with their own money to prevent an increase in sales tax, etc.

Seriously, if you still think the Bidwills are cheap and value money over winning, I think you might be living in the past a bit. I'm done with this argument here, if you want to continue it further, we'll move it to the Cardinals Forum. You're probably right about Sarver, I don't know enough about him to argue those points, but your sentiment on him seems to be the popular opinion.

 

[Nitemare129]

You know as much as I hate to agree with a Lakers fan, he's right.

It's funny, when the trade for Shaq happened I said the situation was alot like the Cardinals bringing an aging Emmitt Smith in for the sake of selling seats and merchandise and people thought I was crazy for the analogy.......doesn't seem so crazy now does it?

 

[AsUdUdE]

Already been done a million times in the Cardinals forum where this debate belongs. To bullet a few points though, The Bidwills have changed considerably in the last several years. They have paid players top dollar, paid premium money to coaches, fired Denny Green even though it meant paying him millions to sit at home, funding the new stadium with their own money to prevent an increase in sales tax, etc.

Seriously, if you still think the Bidwills are cheap and value money over winning, I think you might be living in the past a bit. I'm done with this argument here, if you want to continue it further, we'll move it to the Cardinals Forum. You're probably right about Sarver, I don't know enough about him to argue those points, but your sentiment on him seems to be the popular opinion.

I will agree with you to a point... They have changed things since they got their stadium.,.. That said maybe the right word is they odn't know how to manage their cap as good as most teams (case and point, last year using Cap room to pay signing bonuses, only to have a worse cap situation the next year)...

And I will agree that it almost seems like a moot point in the end, HOWEVER I think it is sad to think of what the Suns COULD have been right now if only Jerry still owned the team....

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Sarver sucks, but to suggest this team had a window that could have lasted for "years" is about as laughable as your opinion that the Nuggets were going to match up well with the Lakers. Sarver's biggest problem was not going all in and spending to get this franchise and city just that one NBA title. All they had to win was one and most people would've been fine with Sarver going cheap for the next decade.

That being said, he's not the sole person responsible. I think a better coach probably wins the NBA Title with last year's Suns team.

And no, the Bidwills are worse. Unlike the Suns the 'Birds can't even make the playoffs and they reward career incompetence much more freely than Sarver (see Rod Graves).

 

[AsUdUdE]

This is just laughable. Sarver tries to win, even though money is still a factor.

LOL.. He tries to win to a POINT...

He would LOVE to win, but if he has to pay extra, he would be content to lose and make money... Just look at the body of evidence the last 3 years....

And those who disagree with that are just ignorant....

 

[Darth Llama]

I'm just curious, cause I know NOTHING about Sarver, and I admit that...

If he's so cheap, why bring in the highest paid player in the league? He's paying Shaq $20+ Million a year, why do that if he's cheap?

I'm not arguing, I just don't understand. Does he think Shaq is still enough of a draw to sell tickets even if the team is losing?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

It's Bidwill not Bidwill.

In any event, the Cardinals have progressed as an organization and the Suns have regressed. You could say that right now they are right about on par.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Selling off draft picks is my biggest gripe.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm just curious, cause I know NOTHING about Sarver, and I admit that...

If he's so cheap, why bring in the highest paid player in the league? He's paying Shaq $20+ Million a year, why do that if he's cheap?

I'm not arguing, I just don't understand. Does he think Shaq is still enough of a draw to sell tickets even if the team is losing?

our payroll this year and next year actually went DOWN with the Shaq trade. I don't get when people just look at one salary as proof of someone being cheap or not, it's always the totality of the salary structure which is important when that's being judged IMO.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

It's Bidwill not Bidwill.

In any event, the Cardinals have progressed as an organization and the Suns have regressed. You could say that right now they are right about on par.

The Cards still have to at least make the playoffs just once before they remove themselves from the 'NFL laughinstock' they so richly deserve. For all Sarver's mismanagement, they are still one of the most desirable franchises in the NBA.

 

[Darth Llama]

Selling off draft picks is my biggest gripe.

Yes, that one is inexcusable. I don't get that at all.

 

[Darth Llama]

our payroll this year and next year actually went DOWN with the Shaq trade. I don't get when people just look at one salary as proof of someone being cheap or not, it's always the totality of the salary structure which is important when that's being judged IMO.

And I would agree with you. I didn't know the Payroll went down, Marion and Banks must have been making a lot of money. I just looked at the one salary because it's such an enormous number, no other reason. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[newfan101]

Whoa ... hold on now.

I can't stand Sarver, and think he will run this organization into the ground after the last remnants of the Colangelo's are gone. And he did single handedly destroy this current team with cost cutting, bottom line moves. But let’s be fair ... Bidwill sets the standard for bad ownership ... for all sports. Up until a few years ago, the Cards hadn't won a playoff game since the Truman administration. Since the AFL/NFL merger in 1970, they have the worst record in football. Need I go on? I doubt Sarver will be around that long to prove that level of incompetence.

Maybe he'll be around just long enough to be as bad as Ted Stepien.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And I would agree with you. I didn't know the Payroll went down, Marion and Banks must have been making a lot of money. I just looked at the one salary because it's such an enormous number, no other reason. Thanks for the clarification.

just wanted to say if my post came off as kind of harsh with the "i don't understand people" thing, it wasn't my intention either. just didn't want to explain it any further. i think you know what i mean (and mostly that comment was geared towards myopic suns fans who point to shaq's contract as proof Sarver's not cheap).

 

[Ryanwb]

To the Cardinals defense, they operated for years on a razor thin profit margin and still brought in free agents. They were pulling in 3-7 million in profits versus a team like the Cowboys who saw 100 million dollar profits.

There are locker room stories about cheapness, nothing has ever been substantiated and the fact of the matter is I've never come away from a season thinking the team management wasted an opportunity over being cheap. They've never sold draft picks, never traded away talent over contact $$$ and for a team that routinely drafts in the top 10 they found a way.

They had a really bad situation at ASU, but the signed that deal believing the promise of Arizona legislatures... They've built a modest team and I have little doubt when the next team values come out the Cardinals will be worth over 1 billion dollars. Not bad

 

[AsUdUdE]

Sarver sucks, but to suggest this team had a window that could have lasted for "years" is about as laughable as your opinion that the Nuggets were going to match up well with the Lakers. Sarver's biggest problem was not going all in and spending to get this franchise and city just that one NBA title. All they had to win was one and most people would've been fine with Sarver going cheap for the next decade.

That being said, he's not the sole person responsible. I think a better coach probably wins the NBA Title with last year's Suns team.

And no, the Bidwills are worse. Unlike the Suns the 'Birds can't even make the playoffs and they reward career incompetence much more freely than Sarver (see Rod Graves).

Wow.. so to recap you don't think a team

PG: Steve Nash/Rajon Rondo
SG: Andre Igudola/Barbosa
SF: Shawn Marion/Grant Hill
PF: Amare Stoudemire/Boris Diaw
C: KT/Diaw/#15 pick this year

And some may argue that Joe Johnson was partly becuase of Sarver's Cheapness....

So yeah.. This team, even when Nash Retired would have competed for NBA Championships year in and year out...

But in your world the thought of that team competeing for a Championship year in and year out is "Laughable?"....

 

[TJ]

Wow! Tough call, but the Bidwills win by a nose. Although they are getting better with Michael at the helm.

 

[Ryanwb]

I wonder how many of you would change your tune if you had a financial stake in the Phoenix Suns/Arizona Cardinals? Do you really want your employer deficit spending? There are no guarantees that says if you spend money you will win, the Knicks have proven that (even though they are retards). Sports is still a business first and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

In the end the fans lose because ticket prices go up, games end up on PPV and all of the sudden you're in the nose bleeds not able to cheer because the guy next to you is closing a sale. This isn't NBA Live '08, there is still fiscal responsibility required

Our country is run on deficit spending and look where the economy is...In the toilet

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wow! Tough call, but the Bidwills win by a nose. Although they are getting better with Michael at the helm.

yes, but it was gonna be a herculean task to get worse!