Is Stone salvageable?
- Thread starter spanky1
- Start date
LVCARDFREAK
In the league 20 years!
Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Is anyone forcing you to read it?
There's a lot of other threads running on the board, if you don't approve.
Kinda like a Train Wreck Tango. You almost cant help yourself.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
You accuse ME of talking in circles, when you post THIS???
I'll try to boil down your response to what I was asking.
You think he has potential. Fine, I think you're wrong, but that's just personal opinion difference. No harm, no foul.
You've defined talent as...well, gee, not sure exactly what you've defined it as. You described it several different ways and included a real definition. But you failed to come close to a cohesive reply.
All in all, it appears as if you've backed off your initial post about Stone, but don't want to admit you were wrong. Fine, whatever, you weren't wrong. Of course, you're never wrong!
As long as you realize he's never proven anything at this level, because intimating the coaches might be more to blame because they haven't 'developed' him, and stating he DOES have talent when he hasn't shown any, can't possibly be wrong.
So, thank you for the confusing, long-winded and all-over-the-place response. Stone is nothing as of now, though MAYBE he'll show something this year. End of story.
I'll try to boil down your response to what I was asking.
You think he has potential. Fine, I think you're wrong, but that's just personal opinion difference. No harm, no foul.
You've defined talent as...well, gee, not sure exactly what you've defined it as. You described it several different ways and included a real definition. But you failed to come close to a cohesive reply.
All in all, it appears as if you've backed off your initial post about Stone, but don't want to admit you were wrong. Fine, whatever, you weren't wrong. Of course, you're never wrong!
As long as you realize he's never proven anything at this level, because intimating the coaches might be more to blame because they haven't 'developed' him, and stating he DOES have talent when he hasn't shown any, can't possibly be wrong.
So, thank you for the confusing, long-winded and all-over-the-place response. Stone is nothing as of now, though MAYBE he'll show something this year. End of story.
That was probably the worst response to an actual question I have ever read. That was the most long winded rambling to not answer a question I have ever seen. Your responses are so pointless sometimes it's funny. The question was what have you ever seen Michael Stone do, to prove he has some talent. You completely ignored that.
I have a question, How can you not be angry that Coach Mac traded a Pro Bowler in Aeneas Williams for the Michael Stone draft slot. How can you not be angry at Macs poor draft that year one first and two 2nd rounders. The #2 pick overall pick, the #34 overall pick and the #54 and what did the Cards end up with
A #2 overall pick that plays Right Guard, if you were a #2 overall pick that plays Right Guard you better make the ProBowl every other year atleast. You mentioned what Guards consistently end up in the ProBowl year after year, that it doesn't happen. How about Will Shields he wen't to his 9th consecutive yesterday. Look at the impact that other first rounders that could have been selected had on there team in L Tomlinson and R Seymour.Now for the KVB pick, that was another great character/limited talent pick when you are picking at #34 you should have landed somebody with talent,look at the players who were immediately selected in the 2 picks after KVB, Alge Crumpler TE to Atlanta and WR Chad Johnson to the Bengals. Other players that were available were also Kendrell Bell, Fred Smoot and Kris Jenkins DT.
If you were to have selected someone more talented at that first 2nd round pick like Smoot, then you wouldn't have had to draft a project like M Stone at CB, you could have selected a guy like S Rogers who I recall many people wanted at that slot at DT.
Just overall those picks sucked andpanned out bad.
Rivercard
Too much good stuff
Why did we basically give Williams to the Rams? I can't imagine Mac would do that unless we were forced to deal him.
This post first appeared on page 2 of this thread, with quite a bit of discussion having occured prior:
Originally posted by Stout:
__________________
Tango in response:
Stout:
Tango:
Stout:
and you wonder why I may have been a little hesitant to enter into this???
none-the-less....my response:
Stout:
and Stout, again:
and when still no reply posted by me, he follows, yet again:
And, yes, then I did post the following in reply to a post of Jeff's:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JeffGollin
El Threado Longo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***huffing up my chest so I can do my best Stout 'voice'***:
"So is that good or bad, Jeff? Right?... or Wrong? "
Which in turn prompted Stout to reply:
and then Stout additionally offers:
and finally he also adds:
To which then I took the time to give him the answer he so desperately seemed to demand. I'll just let that entire post speak for itself.
and finally.....not to be overlooked in all these "accusations" directed toward me:
On the "Gallery and Clement" thread, Stout posted this: (rather out of character...but):
You're probably right, Tango. I just thought it made some food for thought at a boring time news-wise. Plus, it isn't nearly as far-fetched a scenario as some of the others posted on here.
Now, granted, it ain't gonna happen. Just fun to kick around a few though
To which I replied:
Yet who is the one displaying the histrionics subsequently here????????
Who is the one "calling names"...etc?????????
QED
I took the time to go through all of this, because for months now this type of thing has been going on. Hopefully from this point in time on, some of that will diminish a little.
Originally posted by Stout:
__________________
Tango in response:
Stout:
Tango:
Stout:
and you wonder why I may have been a little hesitant to enter into this???
none-the-less....my response:
Stout:
and Stout, again:
and when still no reply posted by me, he follows, yet again:
And, yes, then I did post the following in reply to a post of Jeff's:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JeffGollin
El Threado Longo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***huffing up my chest so I can do my best Stout 'voice'***:
"So is that good or bad, Jeff? Right?... or Wrong? "
Which in turn prompted Stout to reply:
and then Stout additionally offers:
and finally he also adds:
To which then I took the time to give him the answer he so desperately seemed to demand. I'll just let that entire post speak for itself.
and finally.....not to be overlooked in all these "accusations" directed toward me:
On the "Gallery and Clement" thread, Stout posted this: (rather out of character...but):
You're probably right, Tango. I just thought it made some food for thought at a boring time news-wise. Plus, it isn't nearly as far-fetched a scenario as some of the others posted on here.
Now, granted, it ain't gonna happen. Just fun to kick around a few though
To which I replied:
As I've said before:
I think often people (and I am a people, too
I firmly believe in the old addage: "If you and I both think exactly alike, there is no need for your existance."
Diversity IS "life" itself.
History has demonstated again, and again, and again, that when questioning is questioned, individual freedom suffers and authoritarian power increases.
but...just because someone may cough up a totally ignorant idea shouldn't automatically exempt it from some one else describing it as such.....without personal insult, of course.
That's what I really, historically, see way too much of. Disagree fine, disagree passionately if you feel the need to passionately do so. (and the "you" here is purely meant in a general sense). Just dispense with the eagerness to take a bipolar- right vs wrong- stance, insulting and using classless profanity as if it meant nothing.
I like a good, healthy arguement at times.
Harmony is not just everyone singing the same note.
Yet who is the one displaying the histrionics subsequently here????????
Who is the one "calling names"...etc?????????
QED
I took the time to go through all of this, because for months now this type of thing has been going on. Hopefully from this point in time on, some of that will diminish a little.
The above post = Serious Mental Illness
Actually the Cards WERE forced to deal him. Aeneas had gone on record as saying if they didn't trade him, he would retire.
Getting anything for him, at that point, was a plus. It was not a nice situation to be in, at all.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Wow, Tango...really bad, pointless post, but you proved my point for me perfectly. I was getting increasingly upset at your childish dodging of the question...and your little insult that caused me to call you an ass came after several pages had gone without me saying a word. So, why'd ya have to go dragging my name back up? Couldn't leave well enough alone?
Wow. You just won't see it. It's dumbfounding, really, how narrow your vision is. (now go ahead and make your joke on 'dumbfounding').
Wow. You just won't see it. It's dumbfounding, really, how narrow your vision is. (now go ahead and make your joke on 'dumbfounding').
Really? Are you sure now? LOLOriginally posted by DevonCardsFan
First about Stone, It seems alot of people have forgot we traded Aeneas Williams for that pick a ProBowler, to land a guy that was basically a project. He had great physical attributes but was very raw.He was a hit or miss pick, He is just another example of a bad mac draft.
So what is wrong with drafting someone as "a project"? Aren't most college players really that anyway? How many players really come out and produce at a high level the first year? Also...aren't most draft picks really "hit or miss"? Where are the "guarantees" than anyone will be an overwhelming success in the NFL? You also seem to forget (or gloss over) the fact that Aeneas had given the Cards the ultimatum: "Trade me or I retire". He had them by the gonads and squeezed. He evidently wanted a legitimate shot at a ring and didn't want to sit around while the Cards "rebuilt" "again". They did the best they could with a bad situation (for them) at that point. Josh was drafted "as a project too". At that point Jake had still not been eliminated as the continued "franchise" QB here. Good teams often draft "projects" with "Raw" talent, if they think they can. Why do you seem to infer that that is necessarily such a negative?
As for the 2001 draft, I ask how many RG have gone #2 overall in the Draft, None!!!! Davis is a bad pick,if he was a monster LT or RT, the pick would befine. But basically the #2 overall pick we had became a RG with motivation issues.
]How many "Leonard Davis's" have there been in the draft? Once again you seem to infer that because he was a college tackle that 's what the Cards drafted him to be. Big has shown that he does seem to function better as a guard. This is such "old hat" . Who was one of the NFC's starting pro-bowl guards once again this year....can you say Larry Allen? Another college tackle converted to guard in the NFL. Yeah, really bad idea, "demote" a college tackle to NFL guard....um hmmm. Do you deny that Big stilll lacks the potential to be a perenneal pro-bowler.....and can't anchor a good offensive line......as a guard?
-KVB, was a great character pick, but his skills did not warrant his selection that high in the 2nd.
I don't think anyone disputes the "character" part. But he did seem to have the tools to fill a big need at the time he was drafted. Injuries have affected that a lot....You can't predict those...the rest is simply still a debatable point, as far as I can see. 20-20 hindsight is wonderful...but I say he did give all the indications of being a "good" pick in a needed area, at the time he was taken.
As for 2002 -W Bryant was a tweener DL, that so far has shown zero production, remember the Cards passed on Shockey, Buchanon and Fisher for the guy.
Are you inferring that a 300 lb "tweener" is a no-no? I don't know of a whole lot of people that felt that was a bad pick WHEN IT WAS MADE. Dennis Green has publically stated he thinks he can be all pro (or words to that effect anyway). So how you going to spin this one Devon? Granted he has left something to be desired so far. We now enter year 3 with him...."normal" rookie "lead time". We can only see what happens this year.
As to Drafting, I'm not sure exactly what your point there is. We took Bryant at 12 the Giants took Shockey at 14. We signed Freddy Jones as a free agent, that year. What's the problem here?
And exactly whom are the Buchanon and Fisher that you throw out that we "passed on"? I assume you meant Philip Buchanon, CB, taken by the Raiders at #17. Played in 6 games that year. Started last year. This was an "bad" decision to go with Bryant over him at that time?
And who is the nebulous "Fisher" we passed on? Travis Fisher, CB, that the Rams took with the next to last pick in the 2nd round? Or are you saying we should have drafted Levar #1 instead of Bryant? or Tony Fisher,RB, the undrafted free agent the Packers signed that year?
I call BS on this one Devon. I challenge you to back this one up.
-L Fisher was a descent pick, but you could have also swooped up Clinton Portis with this pick, the Cards had huge ???? marks at RB Thomas Jones had shown nothing at this point.
Thomas Jones had shown "nothing" at that point? Yes, Pittman was making a case for himself, but in Jones defense, he had that "mysterious" breathing problem that had been mis-diagnosed, and by the end of the year 2001 was starting to show flashes of what people thought he could be.
- J McCown was also a some what of a project pick as well,this is his year to prove himself, so his grade is an incomplete.
So what's your point?
2003
C Pace/B Johnson.......... Instead of Suggs or Leftwich
a debate that could seemingly stretch to infinity...with no one "side" ever convincing the other to change viewpoints. Let me guess here...whatever the Cards did, according to you, would be wrong? Right?
A Boldin, Great pick but this was a major fluke, Cards got so damn lucky by etting this guy.
This is the one that cracks me up the most, and is soooooo weak in my estimation. Hitting paydirt with Boldin is discarded as simply "luck" yet the "mistakes" aren't. :roll:
G Hayes could be a nice pick too early to grade him.
On another post you bring up Richard Seymour. Were you around here then? I seem to remember Russ as being pretty high on him( he wasn't the only one) but the big question , at the time was his health, coming off surgery. He was a risk. I don't think anyone denied his talent, but A LOT of people were a little leery of the risk with him. The Pats were in a position to be able to take that risk....and they hit the jackpot. He WAS a higher than normal risk at that point however. A luxury the Cards just really couldn't afford to take at that time.
Was there a point to all your "criticisms" here?
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SECTION 11
vibraslap
I think we should draft a running back. For all of the above reasons.
The point you don't understand is when you look at players selected lower then Big, they had huge impacts on there teams, Big basically plays RG a position never picked as high as #2 overall,look at Larry Allen's draft position. You do not take a Tackle you plan on turning into a Guard with the #2 overall pick.
And I like how you edit my post removing the fact the the following two picks after KVB were Alge Crumpler and C Johnson. And a few picks after that were K Bell, Smoot and KJenkins. KVB was not rated high, he was a 3rd rounder at best.
And as far as the Bryant situation I ment Harris not Fisher. Green is calling Bryant out, trying toget something out of him, by calling hima probowler, because basically I see a Bust.
Whats the point of your existence, Atleast Nem would bring valid points to his arguments, You just ramble and argue and rambleon, ignoring facts and talking in circles.
Originally posted by DevonCardsFan
The point you don't understand is when you look at players selected lower then Big, they had huge impacts on there teams, Big basically plays RG a position never picked as high as #2 overall,look at Larry Allen's draft position. You do not take a Tackle you plan on turning into a Guard with the #2 overall pick.
Why is it that you seem to think just because someone doesn't agree with you, that they don't "understand"??
I understand your argument, like I said....it's certainly not a new one.....I just don't agree. Deal with it if you can. Yes, I'd like to see more production out of Big, but though he hasn't seemed to max out his potential yet, I still believe he may, and I certainly wouldn't classify him a bust...or anything close just yet. You can play the game of comparing anyone that was ever picked below someone else, outperforming the higher pick in every single draft ever made. So What? Generalities like that don't address any specific, individual, unique case.
And I like how you edit my post removing the fact the the following two picks after KVB were Alge Crumpler and C Johnson. And a few picks after that were K Bell, Smoot and KJenkins. KVB was not rated high, he was a 3rd rounder at best.
Huh? Say What??? I didn't edit out anything. I'm even reproducing the body of your original post, below. Are you high on something? Sorry, Devon, but there really are only so many hours in the day, and I have neither the time or inclination to try and cover every little comment you ever made on any post, in a single post of mine.
I see you certainly don't let truth get in the way of any of your accusations.
And as far as the Bryant situation I ment Harris not Fisher. Green is calling Bryant out, trying toget something out of him, by calling hima probowler, because basically I see a Bust.
Ahhhh...my mistake....we all should have been able to read your mind and know that what you printed wasn't what you really meant.
So YOU see Bryant as a bust...yadda, yadda, yadda. I'm going to go out on a limb here and make the prediction that there's probably not a whole lot of people that would agree with your little take there.
Whats the point of your existence,UH OH...Devon's bringing out the heavy artillery now.
I see a couple of you have seemed to fall back on this desperate/weak little excuse to deflect the attention away from the fact that you are the ones dodging issues or otherwise unable to support YOUR verbal perambulations.
......Amazing!
Here it is...the text of the post I supposedly edited:
First about Stone, It seems alot of people have forgot we traded Aeneas Williams for that pick a ProBowler, to land a guy that was basically a project. He had great physical attributes but was very raw.He was a hit or miss pick, He is just another example of a bad mac draft.
As for the 2001 draft, I ask how many RG have gone #2 overall in the Draft, None!!!! Davis is a bad pick,if he was a monster LT or RT, the pick would befine. But basically the #2 overall pick we had became a RG with motivation issues.
-KVB, was a great character pick, but his skills did not warrant his selection that high in the 2nd.
As for 2002 -W Bryant was a tweener DL, that so far has shown zero production, remember the Cards passed on Shockey, Buchanon and Fisher for the guy.
-L Fisher was a descent pick, but you could have also swooped up Clinton Portis with this pick, the Cards had huge ???? marks at RB Thomas Jones had shown nothing at this point.
- J McCown was also a some what of a project pick as well,this is his year to prove himself, so his grade is an incomplete.
2003
C Pace/B Johnson.......... Instead of Suggs or Leftwich
I do not get that logic at all
A Boldin, Great pick but this was a major fluke, Cards got so damn lucky by etting this guy.
G Hayes could be a nice pick too early to grade him.
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red desert
ASFN Addict
More like Stone himself.
Yeah I wonder if there will be another semi homo-erotic story, this time involving Tango as the princess and Michael Stone as the ugly frog that recieves a kiss, to blossom into a Big strong handsome All-Pro CB.
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