Is this really fair though? (Rooney rule)

[Cardiac]

Slightly off the subject but interesting story about the Cardinals and racism from 1968.

http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1081429/1/index.htm

Oddly enough the Cards went 9-4-1 in 1968. Also the author refers to the Cardinals numerous losses yet in the 5 prior seasons the Cards were 37-29-4. A record we'd have been ecstatic about any time between 1977 and 2007.

Interesting and very long read, thanks for the link DJ.

Obviously we have come a long way as a society but it was ground zero where we started.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

This is the dumbest thread that comes up every offseason. If you don't particularly care if a minority candidate gets an interview then why are you here bellyaching?

Take a look at an example where there ISN'T a Rooney Rule--NCAA football. How many FBS head coaches are black? 15 out of 120! Clearly, the Rooney Rule has done an excellent job giving minority candidates access to the head coaching pipeline in comparison with a similar system that doesn't have interviewing preferences.

If we can agree that it's a good thing that minority candidates get access to the interview process, and we agree that owners and GMs can hire whomever they consider to be the best candidate, does it matter whether or not the Rooney Rule is "obsolete"? If everyone collectively decided to exclusively use crosswalks, what's the point of taking Jaywalking ordinances off the books?

Excellent.

BOOM! Spot on.

+3

 

[Bobcat]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/12/18/nfl-panel-recommends-coaching-candidates/#comments



I thought minority coaches had become pretty prevelant in the nfl at this point.

With the list they provided, I feel those coaches will get looks anyway.

But is it really fair to have a panel that is designed specifically to push for these guys to get jobs over a white guy?

It seems the white guy is under fire to me and that reeks as bad as the black man being under fire IMO.

yes it is fair...!!!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

This is the dumbest thread that comes up every offseason. If you don't particularly care if a minority candidate gets an interview then why are you here bellyaching?

Take a look at an example where there ISN'T a Rooney Rule--NCAA football. How many FBS head coaches are black? 15 out of 120! Clearly, the Rooney Rule has done an excellent job giving minority candidates access to the head coaching pipeline in comparison with a similar system that doesn't have interviewing preferences.

If we can agree that it's a good thing that minority candidates get access to the interview process, and we agree that owners and GMs can hire whomever they consider to be the best candidate, does it matter whether or not the Rooney Rule is "obsolete"? If everyone collectively decided to exclusively use crosswalks, what's the point of taking Jaywalking ordinances off the books?

WOW!

Didn't expect that! Very well put.

My only retort is that it breeds inequality, but that is subjective anyway which makes it moot.

Again, really well put, and I agree.

 

[cardpa]

Gotcha. It was not intentional on my part to be deceptive, that's why I provided the link. I was debating with Oaken and there were several posts from both us and I think most of us sometimes get off track or lose what the starting debating point was.

The point I was trying to make was that the Rooney Rule was needed and there still may need to be some tweaking. Anyone who get's upset because of this rule baffles me. K9's post is spot on.

Glad to see we are on the same page. I agree, just dropping the Rooney rule completely would be a mistake. I do think however it needs to be revisited and massaged a bit to fit the current state of affairs.

 

[crisper57]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

It is a travesty how minorities were historically shut out. It doesn't mean putting them at the head of the line has rectified the situation. It just means they are at the front of the line.

The Rooney Rule, while nice in spirit, is ham-fisted in its execution.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

It is a travesty how minorities were historically shut out. It doesn't mean putting them at the head of the line has rectified the situation. It just means they are at the front of the line.

The Rooney Rule, while nice in spirit, is ham-fisted in its execution.

Sad.

 

[crisper57]

Sad.

Why sad? I'm on record that the RR isn't really meant to change much so much as it is a PR issue. It pays lip service to reversing the disenfranchisement of minorities, but it does little else.

Why does it only apply to HC positions? That is why I think it is wrong. I you want better minority options, you got to start at the bottom of the coaching profession and advance from there. Cannot expect a ton of qualified HC candidates if there aren't a ton of lower level minority coaches being advanced through the ranks.

So teams can now say with a straight face that there aren't many qualified minority candidates, do a token interview, and then hire the guy they want. That isn't helping anyone and it calls into question the credentials of any minority candidate interviewed. Again, wrong.

I don't think it should be taken off the books, so much as blown up and rebuilt into something more effective.

 

[Hollywood]

Why sad? I'm on record that the RR isn't really meant to change much so much as it is a PR issue. It pays lip service to reversing the disenfranchisement of minorities, but it does little else.

Why does it only apply to HC positions? That is why I think it is wrong. I you want better minority options, you got to start at the bottom of the coaching profession and advance from there. Cannot expect a ton of qualified HC candidates if there aren't a ton of lower level minority coaches being advanced through the ranks.

So teams can now say with a straight face that there aren't many qualified minority candidates, do a token interview, and then hire the guy they want. That isn't helping anyone and it calls into question the credentials of any minority candidate interviewed. Again, wrong.

I don't think it should be taken off the books, so much as blown up and rebuilt into something more effective.

Or just effective. You are right. If they wanted to do something more than just put on a good show they would put some effort into luring minorities into coaching as a career.

 

[kerouac9]

Why sad? I'm on record that the RR isn't really meant to change much so much as it is a PR issue. It pays lip service to reversing the disenfranchisement of minorities, but it does little else.

Why does it only apply to HC positions? That is why I think it is wrong. I you want better minority options, you got to start at the bottom of the coaching profession and advance from there. Cannot expect a ton of qualified HC candidates if there aren't a ton of lower level minority coaches being advanced through the ranks.

So teams can now say with a straight face that there aren't many qualified minority candidates, do a token interview, and then hire the guy they want. That isn't helping anyone and it calls into question the credentials of any minority candidate interviewed. Again, wrong.

I don't think it should be taken off the books, so much as blown up and rebuilt into something more effective.

Or just effective. You are right. If they wanted to do something more than just put on a good show they would put some effort into luring minorities into coaching as a career.

Do you guys ever actually look at the sidelines during games, or do you prefer to just bellyache about the decline of white male privilege? This is madness.

THERE ARE A TON OF OVER-QUALIFIED MINORITY ASSISTANTS. That's part of the reason why THEY PUT THE ROONEY RULE IN PLACE TO BEGIN WITH. Guys like Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis were languishing in the coaching pipeline while being remarkably successful as coordinators and assistant head coaches.

You could make the case that Todd Bowles is exactly the kind of coach that the Rooney Rule is designed to promote and advance.

 

[cardsfanmd]

So, what you're saying is that only white people are racist. Glad to have someone like you around to tell us these things. Here's a little tidbit genius. I don't like President Obama and it has nothing to do with his skin color(BTW, he's half white) however I'm brow beaten with this charge every day. There are millions of people who don't like him and it has nothing to do with his skin color. These people you speak of are in the extreme minority. But playing along, is it fair to say that those who hated Bush was because of his skin color? Let me give you an education, if you think racism is a one way street, try being white and dating a black person and let me know the reception you get. Oh, and you can be a bigot and not a racist.

:smiliefan:

 

[cardsfanmd]

So, what you're saying is that only white people are racist. Glad to have someone like you around to tell us these things. Here's a little tidbit genius. I don't like President Obama and it has nothing to do with his skin color(BTW, he's half white) however I'm brow beaten with this charge every day. There are millions of people who don't like him and it has nothing to do with his skin color. These people you speak of are in the extreme minority. But playing along, is it fair to say that those who hated Bush was because of his skin color? Let me give you an education, if you think racism is a one way street, try being white and dating a black person and let me know the reception you get. Oh, and you can be a bigot and not a racist.

Republicans?

No. Taxpayers and the literate.

 

[cardsfanmd]

The report, which compiled nearly fifteen years of statistical data, found (among other conclusions) that African American coaches generally won more games per year and led their teams to more playoff games than their Caucasian counterparts, and that African American coaches who were terminated during the period studied had generally won more games than Caucasian coaches who were let go in the same timeframe.

http://cmcplegalnews.wordpress.com/...less-filling-revisiting-the-nfls-rooney-rule/

I'll go with pure of heart in your case Oaken.

I looked it up and 70% of NFL players are black. I guess we should assume that blacks just don't have the ability/skills to be coaches? It's either that or there is a huge miss in the interviewing processes within the NFL. If not this then there is still several NFL owners who are racist.

Please tell me how often you hear nfl players talk and think they would make good head coaches? I guess I'm racist because I wouldn't hand over my half a billion dollar franchise to someone who can't speak fluent English. Also, most players I hear asked the question say they want no part in coaching. Going through good to great Cardinal players of color, I think Fitz, rashard mendenhall, beanie, Bert berry and a few others could conceivably coach in the future. That took me a minute. Do you think any business owner with a brain would want Dockettt, Campbell, ADub, Rolle, Dansby, Peterson, ect ect ect to coach their team??? Coaching is not playing. Complete different mindset and requirements. I'm not at all saying people of color can't do it, I'm just saying that the ethnicity of the players should have no correlation with that of the coaches.

 

[cardsfanmd]

The RR isn't going anywhere and that's prob the right move though. The fact that Russ Grimm could have been a serious head coaching candidate shows that team's do in fact need help in this area.

 

[Cardiac]

Please tell me how often you hear nfl players talk and think they would make good head coaches? I guess I'm racist because I wouldn't hand over my half a billion dollar franchise to someone who can't speak fluent English. Also, most players I hear asked the question say they want no part in coaching. Going through good to great Cardinal players of color, I think Fitz, rashard mendenhall, beanie, Bert berry and a few others could conceivably coach in the future. That took me a minute. Do you think any business owner with a brain would want Dockettt, Campbell, ADub, Rolle, Dansby, Peterson, ect ect ect to coach their team??? Coaching is not playing. Complete different mindset and requirements. I'm not at all saying people of color can't do it, I'm just saying that the ethnicity of the players should have no correlation with that of the coaches.

I believe many who get into coaching weren't good enough for the NFL or maybe even big time college programs. The old saying those who can do, those who can't, teach. Is that why there are far more white coaches than black?

I think Adub, Rolle and Peterson are very thoughtful, smart and driven men. Adub may be a bit rough around the edges but he wouldn't be the first coach with that trait.

So right away you have excluded two potential candidates IMO and that's what the Rooney Rule was meant to prevent. Okay so maybe not the tightest analogy but close enough.

Simply review K9's post, it says it all.

 

[cardsfanmd]

If you think ADub, Rolle and Peterson are smart, I don't even know what to tell you lol. ADub and Rolle always took longer than the remainder of the defense to learn systems and Peterson scored a damned 4 on the wonderlik lol. You really hear them talk and come away thinking they're intelligent? I'm not trying to bash any of them as bad football players or men. ADub is my favorite Cardinal ever. At the end of the day though, everything isn't for everyone. Sooooooooooooooo much more goes into coaching than just X's and O's. Also, I never said we should do away with the RR. Nothing like that will ever happens so it's not even worth debating IMO.

 

[Hollywood]

Do you guys ever actually look at the sidelines during games, or do you prefer to just bellyache about the decline of white male privilege? This is madness.

THERE ARE A TON OF OVER-QUALIFIED MINORITY ASSISTANTS. That's part of the reason why THEY PUT THE ROONEY RULE IN PLACE TO BEGIN WITH. Guys like Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis were languishing in the coaching pipeline while being remarkably successful as coordinators and assistant head coaches.

You could make the case that Todd Bowles is exactly the kind of coach that the Rooney Rule is designed to promote and advance.

The truth is that I have never been that high on Lovie Smith or Marvin Lewis. IMO they are average head coaches.

 

[Timm Rosenbach]

Asians, Native Americans, Jews, and Hindus are under-represented in the NFL. Something needs to be done to fix this horrible inequality

And while we are at it; there are quite a few Latino players in the league, while I believe there is only one Latino coach and not a single Latino owner. UNFAIR. This needs to be fixed immediately

 

[GuernseyCard]

Asians, Native Americans, Jews, and Hindus are under-represented in the NFL. Something needs to be done to fix this horrible inequality

And while we are at it; there are quite a few Latino players in the league, while I believe there is only one Latino coach and not a single Latino owner. UNFAIR. This needs to be fixed immediately

And nothing precludes interviewing these candidates, if they meet the basic criteria, under the Rooney rule.