It's more or less happening as I was told

[Gaddabout]

I absolutely agree and that's why I feel they were the better team. IMO, to be a better team you almost always have to have the best player of either team. Hakeem, Jordan, Duncan, Kobe etc.

Kobe was a typically plucky Lakers move, but in no way have the Suns had an opportunity to grab a player of the other three caliber. But as a long-time Suns fan, you know that history.

Just saying ... if Colangelo had ever had the opportunity to draft a Hakeem, he would have surrounded the guy with major talent and spared no expense. Colangelo never won a title because he was never so fortunate to have a super talent fall into his lap in the draft.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Of course the team was a laughing stock, it was an expansion team when he started. I don't think that it is fair to use that as a basis to judge Sarver.

Judge him for the selling off picks, or not resigning Amare.

Comparing him to the 49ers of the of the 80's and 90's isn't fair either. Colangelo didn't build a dynasty here; he built a really good team.

Disagree, your history is just wrong, it truly became Jerry's team in the late 80's after the drug scandal. The Suns were a wreck and that's being very kind and that was because of poor ownership, if not for Jerry's leadership the team was on the path to relocation. Just that alone warrants high priase and respect from the city.

Furthmore, once Jerry became the owner the franchise was evelvated and respected. One owner recently commented Sarver wants to play Jerry Jones, sorry that's not respect.

I think when we look back years from now and peel the rose colored glassess of fan loyalty away, Sarver will not be considered on par with Colangelo on any level.

I do think Sarver will put semi competitive teams out there, he isn't stupid, he wants to field a good team and make money, but the days of being a tax payer are over. Why do you think we didn't pursue a sign and trade? Amare would love that, he is al about the money at this point. But the Suns don't really want that, they want to be a playoff team that fills 16K a night and stays around the cap. I guess only time will prove out the final analysis but that's how I see it gaming out.

 

[SunsTzu]

Nash didn't make the max in 04.

What does that have to do with anything? Nash left the Mavs purely for money plain and simple. He gave them a chance to match and when they didn't he took the cash.

Nothing wrong with that, most people in the world would leave a current job to make more doing the same thing elsewhere.

 

[slinslin]

Kobe was a typically plucky Lakers move, but in no way have the Suns had an opportunity to grab a player of the other three caliber. But as a long-time Suns fan, you know that history.

Just saying ... if Colangelo had ever had the opportunity to draft a Hakeem, he would have surrounded the guy with major talent and spared no expense. Colangelo never won a title because he was never so fortunate to have a super talent fall into his lap in the draft.

Part of the reason is that Colangelo also refused to really rebuild as he should have and thus had few chances to win the lottery..

 

[Gaddabout]

but the days of being a tax payer are over. Why do you think we didn't pursue a sign and trade?

I think that's biggest direct concern here. Sarver doesn't want to pay the tax? That's fine. And I don't have a problem with him not wanting to pay Amare the max. That sounds like sound basketball to me. Kerr was on the same page.

But why not try and maximize the talent by getting something for him? Why not try and work a sign and trade before Amare bolted? Instead they tied their entire off-season to getting Amare to come down from his lofty demands. They let opportunity slip through their fingers.

 

[Gaddabout]

Part of the reason is that Colangelo also refused to really rebuild as he should have and thus had few chances to win the lottery..

True and frustrating, but Colangelo was partially delusional.

EDIT: But as a fan, Colangelo always shared sympatico. Thus, the big difference.

 

[The Polecat]

Most agree:
Stat should not be overpaid
To offer him the max would not be in the best interest of the Suns because of prior injuries and lack of defense

But to lose him and get nothing in return is painful
The Suns should have been in touch with every team that was in the market
If we can't keep him
Work a sign and trade
It seems to me that Stat would be in favor of this because it would mean he gets more $$$$$$$$$$$$
Everybody is at least a little bit happy

 

[Griffin]

Long thread and I don't have time to read all posts right now, but I want to address this:

Sarver isn't cheap. I never said he was and people should get over that label. The Suns will again have a payroll in the upper half of the NBA even without Stoudemire.

Do you mean that half the teams in this league spend no more than the salary cap? That's possible, but that's certainly not going to get it done. Imo, you have to be around the LT to be really competitive in this league, unless you have a lot of talented players on rookie-scale contracts.

If we were to return the team from last year, our payroll would already be around $10M lighter because of Ben Wallace's buy-out coming off the books. Now factor in Amare coming off the books, that put us at around $43M before any free agents were signed. Add Frye and Warrick and we are at $53M. Add a couple rookies or cheap vets and you will approach the cap limit of $56M. But that is still a far cry from the LT threshold and from what we spent last year. I am not in favor of paying LT, but the Suns will now be around $15M below it. That's quite a bit of savings there from one season to another.

I think that's biggest direct concern here. Sarver doesn't want to pay the tax? That's fine. And I don't have a problem with him not wanting to pay Amare the max. That sounds like sound basketball to me. Kerr was on the same page.

But why not try and maximize the talent by getting something for him? Why not try and work a sign and trade before Amare bolted? Instead they tied their entire off-season to getting Amare to come down from his lofty demands. They let opportunity slip through their fingers.

Exactly. The Suns were in no risk of getting to LT territory even if they got a big TPE from an Amare trade and used most of it. And, of course, a sign-and-trade would likely result in a draft pick and/or some young player. It didn't have to be a great deal, but it's better than nothing. So Sarver renouncing Amare's rights to sign Warrick without exploring a sign-and-trade option once Amare got an offer elsewhere is just a plain bad move. But it certainly saves the Suns a lot of money, because now they don't even have an option of brining in someone better (and more expensive) than Warrick.

 

[cly2tw]

Long thread and I don't have time to read all posts right now, but I want to address this:

Do you mean that half the teams in this league spend no more than the salary cap? That's possible, but that's certainly not going to get it done. Imo, you have to be around the LT to be really competitive in this league, unless you have a lot of talented players on rookie-scale contracts.

If we were to return the team from last year, our payroll would already be around $10M lighter because of Ben Wallace's buy-out coming off the books. Now factor in Amare coming off the books, that put us at around $43M before any free agents were signed. Add Frye and Warrick and we are at $53M. Add a couple rookies or cheap vets and you will approach the cap limit of $56M. But that is still a far cry from the LT threshold and from what we spent last year. I am not in favor of paying LT, but the Suns will now be around $15M below it. That's quite a bit of savings there from one season to another.

Exactly. The Suns were in no risk of getting to LT territory even if they got a big TPE from an Amare trade and used most of it. And, of course, a sign-and-trade would likely result in a draft pick and/or some young player. It didn't have to be a great deal, but it's better than nothing. So Sarver renouncing Amare's rights to sign Warrick without exploring a sign-and-trade option once Amare got an offer elsewhere is just a plain bad move. But it certainly saves the Suns a lot of money, because now they don't even have an option of brining in someone better (and more expensive) than Warrick.

Sarver's manuver now has been revealed as finding all possible excuses and scapegoats to do exactly that. Nobody can tell me that Sarver is not full aware of the immediate consequences of his approaches. He is however stupid with his general concept of how to build a team. Or maybe he is just Sterling wise.

 

[hsandhu]

Part of the reason is that Colangelo also refused to really rebuild as he should have and thus had few chances to win the lottery..

Suns started 0-13 in 96-97, but i remember how sad it was knowing even if they tank the season they couldn't get tim duncan because they traded away that pick to cleveland in the majerle deal.

 

[Tyler]

Not to me, winning 40 games or 46 games with no chance to win it all is not fun. Drafting in the middle of the first round is not fun. Seeing picks sold is not fun.

None of our young players has ANY chance to be more than a decent NBA player except maybe Earl Clark and he probably won't play more than 12mpg behind Lopez, Warrick, Frye, Hill and Dudley.

I am done with the Suns until Sarver is gone.

Check you later. Go buy a Kobe jersey.

 

[joshstmarie]

Check you later. Go buy a Kobe jersey.

No silly hes not a kobe fan, Its that whiteside kid he had the franchises future pinned on.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Essentially, that's what you did. I see that period of time differently than you.

Obviously I'm in the minority here, and that's fine. Don't question my fandom.

then I question your memory because you have been consistently been wrong about FACTS where JC and the Suns are concerned, from the "he never went for broke" (which he almost always did) to the "he took over when they were an expansion team" (which he didn't have any actual control until the late 80's).

It just seems like you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to Suns history here. THAT's why it's mind-boggling to me that you're making the statements you're making. Not because I didn't think you were a good fan... it was because it seemed like you weren't even a fan at all back then. Maybe you're memory's just really bad. That's my only explanation.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Kobe was a typically plucky Lakers move,

you give the lakers too much credit here. it wasn't the lakers being savvy, but rather the circumstances that allowed them to snag kobe. if you recall, shaq had either just signed with the lakers or indicated he was signing there making divac disposable and then kobe demanded to be immediately traded to the lakers. that's hardly the lakers doing anything "plucky." that was charlotte being bent over and getting something outta a bad situation. i still think charlotte should've said, "F U kobe, we drafted you, we own your rights. deal with it." still interested to see if minny doesn't learn it's lesson from the kobe sitch w/ their rubio scenario.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

then I question your memory because you have been consistently been wrong about FACTS where JC and the Suns are concerned, from the "he never went for broke" (which he almost always did) to the "he took over when they were an expansion team" (which he didn't have any actual control until the late 80's).

It just seems like you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to Suns history here. THAT's why it's mind-boggling to me that you're making the statements you're making. Not because I didn't think you were a good fan... it was because it seemed like you weren't even a fan at all back then. Maybe you're memory's just really bad. That's my only explanation.

My assertion that he 'never went broke' isn't a fact, it is an OPINION. My opinion.

We disagree, leave it at that.

 

[SunsTzu]

you give the lakers too much credit here. it wasn't the lakers being savvy, but rather the circumstances that allowed them to snag kobe. if you recall, shaq had either just signed with the lakers or indicated he was signing there making divac disposable and then kobe demanded to be immediately traded to the lakers. that's hardly the lakers doing anything "plucky." that was charlotte being bent over and getting something outta a bad situation. i still think charlotte should've said, "F U kobe, we drafted you, we own your rights. deal with it." still interested to see if minny doesn't learn it's lesson from the kobe sitch w/ their rubio scenario.

Maybe my memory is off but I think they had to trade Divac before signing Shaq but everyone expected that to happen. Also the Lakers weren't the only team Kobe was willing to play for he just wasn't willing to play for Charlotte of NJ(maybe a couple others but I can't recall).

I remember the buzz was the Suns would draft him and tried moving up but couldn't move in front of the Lakers.

 

[Cheesebeef]

My assertion that he 'never went broke' isn't a fact, it is an OPINION. My opinion.

We disagree, leave it at that.

i'm still wondering what "going for broke" means to you though.

I just don't see how he never went for broke when he:

In 1988 - Traded the team's only star (Larry Nance) in a blockbuster for KJ, Marjele, Nance and Tyrone Corbin, while then signing Tom Chambers to the biggest FA contract ever at the time. Then...

In 1992, he took a perennial 50 game winner and broke it up trading big pieces of it for the baddest boy in the league in Barkley, one of it's hugest talents, but also one of it's hugest head-ache, playing on a bad Philly team while spitting on people in the crowd... and he went out and signed Ainge, one of the biggest FA that year.

Then in 1993-4, he circumvented the salary cap to get the biggest FA in the game (Green/Manning in consecutive years) even after they got Barkley and were wildly successful.

And then in 1998, was ready to put McDyess/Pippen together as the two biggest plums of FA before the lockout squashed that plan.

And then in 1999, he took a perennial 50 win club and tried to get the one more big piece of the puzzle at 91 million dollars. A failure of a move, but still a huge move to try and make the team that much better.

How are NONE of the above "going for broke"? Especially when you list the Shaq trade as something that probably is?

Can you just answer me this one question: What exactly IS going for broke in your opinion and how could JC have done that during his reign from 1988-2004?

 

[chickenhead]

In retrospect, the time to have gone "all in" would have been putting together the mare package the T-wolves wanted for Garnett rather than unsuccessfully trying to trade them a Marion package. Instead we swapped Marion for Shaq and ultimately let Amare walk.

What is *probably* going to happen is that Frye is going to play pretty well--similarly to last year. Help win a bunch of regular season games with his shooting, but not actually be the center we need for the playoffs. Warrick is going to get better by playing with Nash as everyone does. They will be better than we fear the same way last year's team was better than we feared. We won't be in line for top talent in the draft, and we won't have addressed any of the major issues.

 

[Yuma]

The one that got away recently to me is Gasol. We had Marion who we were looking to get rid of, and lord knows we give away our first round picks. You can't tell me we couldn't have put together a better deal to get Gasol than the measly pickings that LA gave up to get him.

 

[SunsTzu]

The one that got away recently to me is Gasol. We had Marion who we were looking to get rid of, and lord knows we give away our first round picks. You can't tell me we couldn't have put together a better deal to get Gasol than the measly pickings that LA gave up to get him.

The Suns couldn't match LA's offer because they had expirings, plus Marc Gasol hasn't turned out too bad for the Grizz.

 

[Yuma]

The Suns couldn't match LA's offer because they had expirings, plus Marc Gasol hasn't turned out too bad for the Grizz.

Just when you see something like that, which I think gave the Lakers the Western Conference Championship for years, you have to try and block that as a rival GM! LMAO! I knew we were in deep doo-doo when that trade was made. I think we should have tried way harder than we did. The way I heard it went down is we heard they were looking to move Gasol, and us plus other teams kind of threw out luke warm first offers, and LA sent in a serious offer and the Grizz jumped on it and shocked everyone in the NBA. I remember teams being shocked LA got Gasol. I think we had sent Marion away by then for a bag of peanuts and some nachos anyway. Sports Illustrated was saying in the off season we had the best ammunition to get Gasol, but we never put in a serious offer, according to SI that is.

 

[elindholm]

The way I heard it went down is we heard they were looking to move Gasol, and us plus other teams kind of threw out luke warm first offers, and LA sent in a serious offer and the Grizz jumped on it and shocked everyone in the NBA. I remember teams being shocked LA got Gasol. I think we had sent Marion away by then for a bag of peanuts and some nachos anyway.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Sunburn]

Just when you see something like that, which I think gave the Lakers the Western Conference Championship for years, you have to try and block that as a rival GM! LMAO! I knew we were in deep doo-doo when that trade was made. I think we should have tried way harder than we did. The way I heard it went down is we heard they were looking to move Gasol, and us plus other teams kind of threw out luke warm first offers, and LA sent in a serious offer and the Grizz jumped on it and shocked everyone in the NBA. I remember teams being shocked LA got Gasol. I think we had sent Marion away by then for a bag of peanuts and some nachos anyway. Sports Illustrated was saying in the off season we had the best ammunition to get Gasol, but we never put in a serious offer, according to SI that is.

No, the Shaq-Marion trade was a knee-jerk, panicked response to the Gasol deal. Marion trade came after it rained manna in LA.

 

[Irish]

No, the Shaq-Marion trade was a knee-jerk, panicked response to the Gasol deal. Marion trade came after it rained manna in LA.

I Shaq had been healthy, the Suns might have been competative. The next season Amare was laid up with his eye issue. The sad part was that Shaq might have workd out, but Porter decided to build the team around him and it was not a good straegy for this team. As it was, unloading Shaq a year ago WITHOUT having to give away picks was the equivalent of just letter Marion leave.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

What on earth are you talking about?

Heh, just go with it.