It's more or less happening as I was told

[Chaplin]

Manning wasn't on the first team that lost to the Rockets. AC green was the big FA acquisition that off-season. It was the next year that we got Manning and were like 36-10 until Joe Klein broke his knee off. That team was slaughtering people.

I mean, it had Majerle, Manning, Ainge, Tisdale... OFF THE BENCH.

You're right, I was looking at the years wrong. That said, both of those teams (year before and first year of Manning) we were the best team in the league. Easily.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You're right, I was looking at the years wrong. That said, both of those teams (year before and first year of Manning) we were the best team in the league. Easily.

agreed.

 

[Bufalay]

I guess the same thing can be said about Channing. Just sayin'.

And Nash in 2004

 

[Chaplin]

yes, but the groundwork for Sarver's team was laid by... Colangelo. That's why Sarver doesn't get the credit there. JC built the Nash/Amare era.

Granted, but in that respect you can also blame Jerry for the money-grubbing egomaniac leaving for NYC as well. He can complain all he wants about the "disrespect" he felt, but that's a load of crap to cover up the fact that he is a greedy bastard.

I think NOT paying Amare what he wants might be one of the best moves Sarver has made as owner of this team.

 

[Chaplin]

Clearly the difference between Jerry and Sarver is that JC took a franchise that was the laughing stock of the NBA and turned it into a respectable upper tier franchise a true destination franchise for players and took us to the only NBA finals we have ever had, a kin to the way the 49ers were run in the 1980 and early 90's. Noone is perfect, mistakes can be made, but when you create revolutionary change you deserve to be considered great. Sarver doesn't touch this on any macro level, it's not even close. Jerry is a Roosevelt and Sarver is a Truman.

If you are comparing the two based on microtransactions you are missing the point.

Yes, but Jerry had many, many years to build that. Sarver has had 5 or 6. I'm not saying Sarver doesn't suck (he does), I'm saying that I agree that comparisons cannot be made--although for different reasons than cheesebeef.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Granted, but in that respect you can also blame Jerry for the money-grubbing egomaniac leaving for NYC as well.

i guess... but he still built another contender for 6 years and who knows how things go down with Stat if... eh... who knows.

I think NOT paying Amare what he wants might be one of the best moves Sarver has made as owner of this team.

agreed... however, he followed it up by tying up that position with a Frye/Warrick combo for the next three years. not signing amare isn't that big of a deal to me. not signing him and then deciding to play the charade game of Frick at PF just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Bufalay]

He can complain all he wants about the "disrespect" he felt, but that's a load of crap to cover up the fact that he is a greedy bastard.

Amare? What makes him a greedy bastard?

 

[Chaplin]

Amare? What makes him a greedy bastard?

LOL

Wait, that's sarcasm, right?

 

[Treesquid PhD]

yes, but the groundwork for Sarver's team was laid by... Colangelo. That's why Sarver doesn't get the credit there. JC built the Nash/Amare era.

and if anything, I think Jerry wanted to win too much. I always loathed the Googs/Longley off-season. Jerr just couldn't stand to see his team tank so he over-reached with the thought that he could keep building on them. Sadly, on a foundation built of sand, he threw a heaping pile of mud on top (Penny).

Exactly, the Suns were already the Suns before Sarver bought the team, so Sarver has a winning record, big deal. In fact the foundation for Sarver's era still had Jerry's impront on it. Nash was a plan before Sarver become owner, Amare, JJ and Marion were already on the roster. Sarver has spent money because how could he not? It's the Suns.

We do know that Sarver has already made hints that Phoenix is a "small market" and we have seen turnover all over the place. Elite players do not even consider the Suns anymore. I'll tell you this, you can bet your ass Jerry would have at least tried to get LeBron, he may have not gotten him but he would made the pitch, come play with us for a year and I'll give you the world. And you can bet your ass LeBron would not have laughed like he would now.

In reality, this is really now Sarver's team, Nash is the final remnent of the Colongelos, I think it's really fair to judge what the franchise does fromt his point forward as the true Sarver era.

 

[Chaplin]

I thought Sarver was a driving force behind getting Nash because he knew he would be a draw for his first year as owner. BC was definitely a driving force of that because he was GM, but I remember this being a Sarver move because he had to OK it.

 

[Mainstreet]

I guess the same thing can be said about Channing. Just sayin'.

No disagreement there. Probably the same with Amundson.

 

[Covert Rain]

I thought Sarver was a driving force behind getting Nash because he knew he would be a draw for his first year as owner. BC was definitely a driving force of that because he was GM, but I remember this being a Sarver move because he had to OK it.

From what I recall it was not Sarver who was the driving force but in fact Brian and Jerry. I remember hearing Sarver on KTAR talking about Brian and Jerry approaching him about Nash. In fact, I also remember reading that Sarver almost balked and didn't want to pay Nash the contract they were offering because like Mark Cuban didn't believe Nash was worth that size of a contract.

 

[TJ]

We are a better team with Stoudemire, no question about it. But this team has proven it can win without him.

When we lost him in 05-06, everyone wrote us off like a lot of us are doing right now. The team found a way to win despite that and go to the WCF. I don't see major differences except for the fact that the current coach is willing to go 10 deep and not wear out the other starters.

I think the reason why many of your are upset is because we were in striking distance of the championship last season and feel the team is being gutted. As it stands, we still have our best player and field captain in Nash, a proven scorer in J-Rich, a developing big man in Lopez, a steady hand in Hill, a great coach in Gentry and role players which every successful team needs to get over the hump.

I am not going to run up and down my street tonight banging pots and pans over the Warrick signing, but I'm willing to give the guy a chance. He's been in some crummy situations and like others who have come and gone in the Nash era, I'm interested to see how he benefits from our offense.

In addition, the one thing that all of us bitched about for the last 8 years is Amare's lack of defense. Well, here's our chance to improve in that category. Warrick is a better defender than Amare IMO at his position. Not allowing 4s and 5s to own us all of the time on the other end of the court is going to help our transition game.

Also, I want to see how Clark develops in his sophomore year. I wrote off Lopez and almost did the same with Dragic last year and they made leaps and bounds. Clark's biggest issue is his confidence. He has all of the skill in the world and his size and length are intriguing. Once he breaks out of that shell, he'll be a contributor.

This is not rebuilding if we aren't trading pieces like J-Rich away for scrubs, picks and new rims for the practice court. The Suns will be fun to watch again I can promise you, we just won't be a championship team, especially since Jackson is back at LA.

 

[Gaddabout]

And yet, no title. He certainly is better than Sarver, but he doesn't deserve a free pass either.

Totally fair. Colangelo was impulsive in a lot of his attempts to acquire talent, and a lot of it was driven to reverse his image under previous ownership. He was pummeled by the local media for being a guy that wouldn't pull the trigger or spend money, when in reality his hands were tied by ownership. He desperately wanted to shun that image and it led to some poor decisions. He also idealized the 80s Lakers at a time when the league was moving away from that kind of basketball.

What we're hailing in Colangelo is his passion to win a championship. That is NOT at the top of Sarver's list. Anything he says about it is lip service.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

why? I'm not saying it makes you a "bad" fan,

Essentially, that's what you did. I see that period of time differently than you.

Obviously I'm in the minority here, and that's fine. Don't question my fandom.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

In Manning's first two years, we were EASILY the best team in basketball. I mean, it wasn't even close. Too bad the damn Rockets beat us both years.

But there was no denying that we became the best team in the NBA the minute Manning signed with us. I don't know how anybody could dispute that.

The best team in the NBA wins the title. The best team wins a 7 game series.

 

[Covert Rain]

The best team in the NBA wins the title. The best team wins a 7 game series.

Your missing the point. We were the best team until the injury. So, by default when Manning went down we were no longer the best team. However, had he stayed healthy we would have been.

I think that is the point and it's valid. Did you even watch that season? The Suns were killing the best teams in the NBA and walking all over everyone else.

 

[Gaddabout]

The best team in the NBA wins the title. The best team wins a 7 game series.

Those five years of the Rockets with Hakeem in his prime, Hakeem may have been the greatest player in the NBA. His impact at both ends of the floor was greater than that of Jordan. It's hard to imagine that team winning 50 games without him. Instead they won two titles.

The Suns continually run into unusually talented superstars despite having the better roster. It's a running theme.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Clearly the difference between Jerry and Sarver is that JC took a franchise that was the laughing stock of the NBA and turned it into a respectable upper tier franchise a true destination franchise for players and took us to the only NBA finals we have ever had, a kin to the way the 49ers were run in the 1980 and early 90's.

Of course the team was a laughing stock, it was an expansion team when he started. I don't think that it is fair to use that as a basis to judge Sarver.

Judge him for the selling off picks, or not resigning Amare.

Comparing him to the 49ers of the of the 80's and 90's isn't fair either. Colangelo didn't build a dynasty here; he built a really good team.

 

[Gaddabout]

I thought Sarver was a driving force behind getting Nash because he knew he would be a draw for his first year as owner. BC was definitely a driving force of that because he was GM, but I remember this being a Sarver move because he had to OK it.

This was Colangelo's plan and Sarver had to be sold on it, though he deferred to Colangelo on most decisions his first year. He was in fact encouraged to do this by his team. It wasn't until Year 2 that Sarver began to show his teeth with the Colangelos. Basically, "OK, it's my turf now, you can go now, this is my team. I'm not going to run things your way."

The Suns overpaid Nash based on his market value at the time. No way Sarver would go for a deal like that today. He would have passed just like Cuban did.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

I thought Sarver was a driving force behind getting Nash because he knew he would be a draw for his first year as owner. BC was definitely a driving force of that because he was GM, but I remember this being a Sarver move because he had to OK it.

Yes Sarver deserves team credit for the Nash deal, but iirc the idea was D'Anotoni's and per Sarver's interviews he felt like things were moving realy fast and that's what led to the Joe Johnson disaster.

Again, I just think the Sarver era really starts with this team, Sarver is the GM/Owner now, this is his team.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Those five years of the Rockets with Hakeem in his prime, Hakeem may have been the greatest player in the NBA. His impact at both ends of the floor was greater than that of Jordan. It's hard to imagine that team winning 50 games without him. Instead they won two titles.

The Suns continually run into unusually talented superstars despite having the better roster. It's a running theme.

I absolutely agree and that's why I feel they were the better team. IMO, to be a better team you almost always have to have the best player of either team. Hakeem, Jordan, Duncan, Kobe etc.

The year the Pistons won is about the only exception I can think of.

 

[SunsTzu]

LOL

Wait, that's sarcasm, right?

Amare leaving a team that has been shopping him for 3 years and offered him below market value makes him greedy? I'm not upset about not offering Amare the max but if he's greedy then everyone is because anyone else would do the same. I doubt many here would call Nash greedy for doing the same thing in '04.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Amare leaving a team that has been shopping him for 3 years and offered him below market value makes him greedy? I'm not upset about not offering Amare the max but if he's greedy then everyone is because anyone else would do the same. I doubt many here would call Nash greedy for doing the same thing in '04.

Nash didn't make the max in 04.

 

[Gaddabout]

Of course the team was a laughing stock, it was an expansion team when he started. I don't think that it is fair to use that as a basis to judge Sarver.

Colangelo didn't really run the team until his ownership group bought the team. Up until them ownership kept him as mouthpiece but he didn't get to make a lot of deals based on basketball. They wanted him to run a team at about half the price the contenders ran it, so the Suns were very much dependent on acquiring talent through the draft. Meanwhile the Lakers were trading aging, one-dimensional players (Don Ford, Norm Nixon) to awful teams for top picks (James Worthy, Byron Scott). And the Lakers could afford to keep three superstars (Magic, Kareem, Worthy). No way the DIAL-owned Suns were ever going to pay out to keep up with that.

The Colangelo group was almost the exact opposite of DIAL. They had open checkbooks and they were going to buy their way to the top if they coudn't draft their way to the top.